Ok, we can simplify the scenario and put aside the Magic Initiate feat.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
For reference:
- Level 1: Innate Sorcery: [...] You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast. [...] - Level 3: Wild Magic Surge: [...] Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. [...]
A Wild Magic Surge can occur after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot, so in the case of a Wizard/Sorcerer, the spell not only must be on the Sorcerer spell list, but also prepared via the Sorcerer Spellcasting, thus being associated with it and using Charisma spellcasting ability as well as Sorcerer level to determine eligibility to prepare it.
Mmm. I understand you, but it's still not clear to me, since technically you're casting a Wizard == Sorcerer spell using a spell slot.
I mean, I see Innate Sorcery and Wild Magic Surge under the same ruling. Coming back to the example where you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, and you have Ray of Sickness prepared as a Wizard, and also prepared thanks to the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat, this is my current understanding:
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat without using a spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
Those seem contradictory. If a prepared spell must be associated with a specific class, then a spell prepared via Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat that uses a Wizard spell slot must be a Wizard spell, not a Sorcerer spell
EDIT: maybe they had the right idea in the UA when they were toying with getting rid of class spell lists, and just having 'Arcane/Divine/Nature' spells or whatever it was
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok, we can simplify the scenario and put aside the Magic Initiate feat.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
For reference:
- Level 1: Innate Sorcery: [...] You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast. [...] - Level 3: Wild Magic Surge: [...] Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. [...]
So, first things first. You aren't going to like it, but that particular Sage Advice answer is wrong. The reason why has to do with the precise wording that is used for the Wild Magic Surge subclass feature. The requirement given is "after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot". That requirement only means that the spell in question is a Sorcerer spell and that a spell slot is used when casting it. This is not enough information to determine how that spell was prepared and how that spell is being cast. Any and all methodologies that are capable of casting a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot would qualify for this feature.
Next, when you use the phrase "if you cast the spell as a Wizard" . . . what that means to me is that you are talking about using your Wizard "Spellcasting" class feature to cast the spell instead of using your Sorcerer "Spellcasting" class feature to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a feat to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a species trait to cast it OR any other class or game feature that might have its own rules for how you might cast the spell.
. . . The multiclass rule only stipulates that IF you used your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare the spell then that spell becomes associated with your Wizard class such that you will have to use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast it. If instead you are using the rules provided by a feat to prepare and then also to cast a spell then these multiclass rules do not apply.
As an example, another common class feature that has special multiclass rules is the Extra Attack feature. The multiclass rule for this feature tells you how to use these features if you have more than one of them due to it being a feature of more than one of your classes. Now, suppose you are making an attack that is part of an Opportunity Attack. This particular attack is not being made by using your Extra Attack feature. There is a separate rule which allows you to make that attack. Therefore, for that particular attack, the multiclass rule for the Extra Attack feature does not apply.
So, to go back to your scenarios:
For Innate Sorcery -- the wording for that feature only cares if the spell being cast is a Sorcerer spell (meaning, it exists on the (really big) Sorcerer Spell List or a feature explicitly declares that it counts as a Sorcerer spell). How the spell was prepared and how the spell is being cast is not a requirement for this Innate Sorcery feature. So, you might be casting the spell by using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature or you might be casting the spell by using the rules given by a feat and this Innate Sorcery feature doesn't care about that.
For Wild Magic Surge -- that was mentioned earlier but that has basically the same requirements as the Innate Sorcery feature -- it matters that the spell is a Sorcerer Spell and that a spell slot is used to cast it, but that doesn't necessarily require that you are using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell.
So again, in this case I believe that the Sage Advice is leading you astray.
The multiclass rule does dictate the manner in which you can cast the spell. Since this spell was prepared using the Wizard Spellcasting class feature, by rule you must also use the Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast it -- mainly this just determines which Spellcasting Ability (INT) that you are allowed to use when you cast it. But in the case of Ray of Sickness, the spell itself is still both a Wizard spell and a Sorcerer spell and as such it will still qualify to be used by the Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge features when cast in this way.
It is possible that the Sage Advice speaks to the RAI of what might have been intended but based on the actual words that are used in these features they do interact regardless of the method used to cast the spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
Those seem contradictory. If a prepared spell must be associated with a specific class, then a spell prepared via Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat that uses a Wizard spell slot must be a Wizard spell, not a Sorcerer spell
EDIT: maybe they had the right idea in the UA when they were toying with getting rid of class spell lists, and just having 'Arcane/Divine/Nature' spells or whatever it was
Yeah, that's one way to rule it. I'm going crazy, mate.
Ok, we can simplify the scenario and put aside the Magic Initiate feat.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
For reference:
- Level 1: Innate Sorcery: [...] You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast. [...] - Level 3: Wild Magic Surge: [...] Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. [...]
So, first things first. You aren't going to like it, but that particular Sage Advice answer is wrong. [...]
Don't worry at all, I don't have a problem with that. That answer is confusing to me when mixed with the other one. That's what I'm trying to understand. An extra clarification in the SAC would be appreciated.
Next, when you use the phrase "if you cast the spell as a Wizard" . . . what that means to me is that you are talking about using your Wizard "Spellcasting" class feature to cast the spell instead of using your Sorcerer "Spellcasting" class feature to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a feat to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a species trait to cast it OR any other class or game feature that might have its own rules for how you might cast the spell.
The multiclass rule does dictate the manner in which you can cast the spell. Since this spell was prepared using the Wizard Spellcasting class feature, by rule you must also use the Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast it -- mainly this just determines which Spellcasting Ability (INT) that you are allowed to use when you cast it. But in the case of Ray of Sickness, the spell itself is still both a Wizard spell and a Sorcerer spell and as such it will still qualify to be used by the Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge features when cast in this way.
It is possible that the Sage Advice speaks to the RAI of what might have been intended but based on the actual words that are used in these features they do interact regardless of the method used to cast the spell.
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
With that idea in mind, my previous reply should be updated as follows:
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Wizard Spellcasting feature using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat without using a spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
Ok, we can simplify the scenario and put aside the Magic Initiate feat.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
For reference:
- Level 1: Innate Sorcery: [...] You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast. [...] - Level 3: Wild Magic Surge: [...] Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. [...]
So, first things first. You aren't going to like it, but that particular Sage Advice answer is wrong.
I think this is the right answer. I think they saw the potential for a abuse (Wild Magic Sorcerer / Wizard X, At the time, Sorcerer 1/Wizard X) and ruled that way instead of RAW. The SAC has carried forward the ruling probably without reevaluating it for correctness or even if it is impactful now that your Sorcerer Subclass is chosen at level 3 instead of 1.
I'll probably rule against any Innate Sorcery shenanigans if someone tries that at my table, but I think the 5e24 version of sorcerer was pretty lazy and trash, so I might be biased there :P
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Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think the contrary, the one on Multiclass is the one that should be corrected, as it's not true that only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge if Class spell are spells on Class spell list. When a Sorcerer 3/Wizard 3 cast Ray of Sickness, to the question to ask yourself wether it can Surge is ;
Did you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot ? Yes.
But If that same character chose this spell via Magic Initiate and cast it without a spell slot, then it cannot Surge.
I think the contrary, the one on Multiclass is the one that should be corrected, as it's not true that only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge if Class spell are spells on Class spell list. When a Sorcerer 3/Wizard 3 cast Ray of Sickness, to the question to ask yourself wether it can Surge is ;
Did you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot ? Yes.
But If that same character chose this spell via Magic Initiate and cast it without a spell slot, then it cannot Surge.
Wild Surge only cares that:
The spell is a Sorcerer spell
You cast it with a slot
The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
* Who knows if this version of the feats will be in Forge of the Artificer.
I think both SAC need to be reevaluated, but the Multiclass is, IMO, the more wrong.
If you rely on spell preparation as the definition of what class a cast spell belongs to, Warlock Invocations aren't Warlock spells. Species and Feat spells never work with a class, even if a spell only exists on one class's spell list. In addition, some of the scenarios are just silly. A single class Wizard who takes Magic Initiate (Wizard) can't treat those spells as Wizard spells?
The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
The Dragonmark feats from the Eberron UA don't give you any spell slots you wouldn't already have. They give you a way to cast their particular spell(s) without using a spell slot, which wouldn't trigger Wild Magic Surge because it's not using a spell slot.
Spell slots don't really have a class associated with them anyway.
Fwiw my hunch is that a Wizard that dips Sorcerer just for the interaction with Innate Sorcery should not be game breaking. The strongest spell that I am seeing on both Lists that uses an attack roll appears to be Level 3, Vampiric Touch. Plus, Using the feature for the +1 to DC probably reaches a point where there are better things that you can do with your Bonus Action at high levels. I guess if anyone has seen this play out this way at their table it would be useful to hear if it was unbalanced.
[...] If you rely on spell preparation as the definition of what class a cast spell belongs to, Warlock Invocations aren't Warlock spells. Species and Feat spells never work with a class, even if a spell only exists on one class's spell list. In addition, some of the scenarios are just silly. A single class Wizard who takes Magic Initiate (Wizard) can't treat those spells as Wizard spells?
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
But if the answer is yes, we're entering a dangerous zone, because then you could even use your Sorcerer spellcasting focus for that spell if you're a Sorcerer/Wizard.
Or, and now we're diving straight into the Abyss, we're opening the gate to using your Wizard spellcasting focus for spells cast as a Sorcerer if that spell also happens to be a Wizard spell.
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I can go into more detail later but for now I am confident that the rules given for whichever method is used to cast the spell must explicitly allow for the use of a Spellcasting Focus. So, for Magic Initiate you cannot use one.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
I have to agree with you all that the answer is problematic, and in a RAW sense incorrect.
I guess my main issue with the answer is that it misrepresents the rule as written. They quote the rule "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes", ends it with a period and then goes on to make a claim about what it means. But that isn't what the rule actually says. The sentence doesn't end there with a period, it has a comma and then continues "and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell". So the rule tells us what the association means and that is something different from what the SAC answers claims it to be. Any meaning/limitation of "association" beyond that of determining what spellcasting ability to use is one that the rules never say, not in the multiclass chapter or in the spellcasting chapter. They might well have intended there to be such a limitation but they didn't actually write it into the game.
This might well be RAW but I'm not sure that the SAC answer is what says so. I'd say that it is more a consequence of how a character's spell list works (as opposed to a class spell list). Of course "character's spell list" is a seriously undercooked concept in the rules (go on do a search and see how many places it pops up in =) ). I'd say that they should have put a bit more time and effort into that as that would have been a better way to limit any multiclass spellcasting issues they might have been afraid of.
Of course I usually just ignore the issue of foci completely. The idea that an item that a character uses to focus their magic would only work for a specific type of magic is stupid to me. Surely a characters training in magic would allow them to learn to control both divine, arcane and nature magic with the same item, especially when there exists foci that aren't limited to a specific school/class.
[...] If you rely on spell preparation as the definition of what class a cast spell belongs to, Warlock Invocations aren't Warlock spells. Species and Feat spells never work with a class, even if a spell only exists on one class's spell list. In addition, some of the scenarios are just silly. A single class Wizard who takes Magic Initiate (Wizard) can't treat those spells as Wizard spells?
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
But if the answer is yes, we're entering a dangerous zone, because then you could even use your Sorcerer spellcasting focus for that spell if you're a Sorcerer/Wizard.
Or, and now we're diving straight into the Abyss, we're opening the gate to using your Wizard spellcasting focus for spells cast as a Sorcerer if that spell also happens to be a Wizard spell.
I disagree. I think the danger you propose is unwarranted.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
This is a Wizard class feature. A fighter with Magic Initiate (Wizard) doesn't have it. A Paladin with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant has the feature, but it doesn't apply to Unseen Servant Squire because it is a Wizard only spell, not a Paladin spell. A Wizard with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant just has an extra Wizard spell and the Spellcasting Focus should work just fine.
If you used Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Detect Magic, it should be an Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell for class features because of this SAC answer:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
What does a Sorcerer's Spellcasting Focus feature look at? Whether a spell is a Sorcerer spell. What is a Sorcerer spell? A spell on the Sorcerer spell list. Does it matter how it was prepared/known? No. The spellcasting entry makes no RAW requirements around that. Even the multiclassing entry makes no RAW requirements around that. It says that each spell prepared is "associated with a class", but does not state what that entails except that it uses the spellcasting ability score of that class. Granted, that could be a clarification of "associated with a class" or a separate statement altogether, but if it is not a clarification, there is no RAW import of being associated with a class within the PHB itself. The SAC interjects importance without basis that causes a conflict with other rules.
Fwiw my hunch is that a Wizard that dips Sorcerer just for the interaction with Innate Sorcery should not be game breaking. The strongest spell that I am seeing on both Lists that uses an attack roll appears to be Level 3, Vampiric Touch. Plus, Using the feature for the +1 to DC probably reaches a point where there are better things that you can do with your Bonus Action at high levels. I guess if anyone has seen this play out this way at their table it would be useful to hear if it was unbalanced.
I was thinking along the same lines. Allowing class features from one class to work with spells from another class shouldn't create any huge issues. You won't be getting any spell slots or access to higher level spells or similar than what your character should have, you'll just get to use your class features a bit more consistently. I'm sure there will be some good combos to be had and if need be then a DM could ban any truly OP combos that pops up but I'd be surprised if there are many. I mean the issue sort of exists the other way round too with the Wizard sub-classes. Many of those features only specify "if you cast an X school spell" then the feature applies without specifying anything about it being a Wizard spell or it being cast with the Wizard spellcasting feature (some do though so it seems those that doesn't do so intentionally).
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Ok, we can simplify the scenario and put aside the Magic Initiate feat.
With that in mind, in the example I wrote, why isn't the multiclassing answer from the SAC applied if you cast the spell as a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer?
For reference:
- Level 1: Innate Sorcery: [...] You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast. [...]
- Level 3: Wild Magic Surge: [...] Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. [...]
A Wild Magic Surge can occur after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot, so in the case of a Wizard/Sorcerer, the spell not only must be on the Sorcerer spell list, but also prepared via the Sorcerer Spellcasting, thus being associated with it and using Charisma spellcasting ability as well as Sorcerer level to determine eligibility to prepare it.
Mmm. I understand you, but it's still not clear to me, since technically you're casting a Wizard == Sorcerer spell using a spell slot.
I mean, I see Innate Sorcery and Wild Magic Surge under the same ruling. Coming back to the example where you're a Sorcerer/Wizard, and you have Ray of Sickness prepared as a Wizard, and also prepared thanks to the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat, this is my current understanding:
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Wizard Spellcasting feature using a Wizard spell slot: it doesn't interact with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes."
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat without using a spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
EDIT: for clarity.
Those seem contradictory. If a prepared spell must be associated with a specific class, then a spell prepared via Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat that uses a Wizard spell slot must be a Wizard spell, not a Sorcerer spell
EDIT: maybe they had the right idea in the UA when they were toying with getting rid of class spell lists, and just having 'Arcane/Divine/Nature' spells or whatever it was
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So, first things first. You aren't going to like it, but that particular Sage Advice answer is wrong. The reason why has to do with the precise wording that is used for the Wild Magic Surge subclass feature. The requirement given is "after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot". That requirement only means that the spell in question is a Sorcerer spell and that a spell slot is used when casting it. This is not enough information to determine how that spell was prepared and how that spell is being cast. Any and all methodologies that are capable of casting a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot would qualify for this feature.
Next, when you use the phrase "if you cast the spell as a Wizard" . . . what that means to me is that you are talking about using your Wizard "Spellcasting" class feature to cast the spell instead of using your Sorcerer "Spellcasting" class feature to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a feat to cast it OR instead of using the rules of a species trait to cast it OR any other class or game feature that might have its own rules for how you might cast the spell.
. . . The multiclass rule only stipulates that IF you used your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to prepare the spell then that spell becomes associated with your Wizard class such that you will have to use your Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast it. If instead you are using the rules provided by a feat to prepare and then also to cast a spell then these multiclass rules do not apply.
As an example, another common class feature that has special multiclass rules is the Extra Attack feature. The multiclass rule for this feature tells you how to use these features if you have more than one of them due to it being a feature of more than one of your classes. Now, suppose you are making an attack that is part of an Opportunity Attack. This particular attack is not being made by using your Extra Attack feature. There is a separate rule which allows you to make that attack. Therefore, for that particular attack, the multiclass rule for the Extra Attack feature does not apply.
So, to go back to your scenarios:
For Innate Sorcery -- the wording for that feature only cares if the spell being cast is a Sorcerer spell (meaning, it exists on the (really big) Sorcerer Spell List or a feature explicitly declares that it counts as a Sorcerer spell). How the spell was prepared and how the spell is being cast is not a requirement for this Innate Sorcery feature. So, you might be casting the spell by using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature or you might be casting the spell by using the rules given by a feat and this Innate Sorcery feature doesn't care about that.
For Wild Magic Surge -- that was mentioned earlier but that has basically the same requirements as the Innate Sorcery feature -- it matters that the spell is a Sorcerer Spell and that a spell slot is used to cast it, but that doesn't necessarily require that you are using your Sorcerer Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell.
So again, in this case I believe that the Sage Advice is leading you astray.
The multiclass rule does dictate the manner in which you can cast the spell. Since this spell was prepared using the Wizard Spellcasting class feature, by rule you must also use the Wizard Spellcasting class feature to cast it -- mainly this just determines which Spellcasting Ability (INT) that you are allowed to use when you cast it. But in the case of Ray of Sickness, the spell itself is still both a Wizard spell and a Sorcerer spell and as such it will still qualify to be used by the Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge features when cast in this way.
It is possible that the Sage Advice speaks to the RAI of what might have been intended but based on the actual words that are used in these features they do interact regardless of the method used to cast the spell.
Yeah, that's one way to rule it. I'm going crazy, mate.
Don't worry at all, I don't have a problem with that. That answer is confusing to me when mixed with the other one. That's what I'm trying to understand. An extra clarification in the SAC would be appreciated.
Yeah, I meant that.
So, if I’m understanding you correctly, we can forget about the multiclassing answer from the SAC, and just keep the next one:
With that idea in mind, my previous reply should be updated as follows:
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Wizard Spellcasting feature using a Wizard spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery or Wild Magic Surge, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
- You cast that prepared spell from Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat without using a spell slot: it interacts with Innate Sorcery, because the spell is also a Sorcerer spell.
I think this is the right answer. I think they saw the potential for a abuse (Wild Magic Sorcerer / Wizard X, At the time, Sorcerer 1/Wizard X) and ruled that way instead of RAW. The SAC has carried forward the ruling probably without reevaluating it for correctness or even if it is impactful now that your Sorcerer Subclass is chosen at level 3 instead of 1.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I also think that SAC contradict each other with these 2 Q&A.
Honestly I think the first one, the one I quoted, was not really well thought through and might be worth ignoring in practice.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'll probably rule against any Innate Sorcery shenanigans if someone tries that at my table, but I think the 5e24 version of sorcerer was pretty lazy and trash, so I might be biased there :P
Active characters:
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Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think the contrary, the one on Multiclass is the one that should be corrected, as it's not true that only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge if Class spell are spells on Class spell list. When a Sorcerer 3/Wizard 3 cast Ray of Sickness, to the question to ask yourself wether it can Surge is ;
Did you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot ? Yes.
But If that same character chose this spell via Magic Initiate and cast it without a spell slot, then it cannot Surge.
Wild Surge only cares that:
The class of the slot doesn't matter. Looking to the Eberron UA (because it creates an interesting scenario*), you can have Dragonmark feats that give you Sorcerer spells and a feat that gives you a slot to cast them, so you can be a single class Sorcerer with a slot from outside of the class which can meet the requirements of the Wild Magic Surge, RAW. I am not sure if there are other ways to get a slot like that.
* Who knows if this version of the feats will be in Forge of the Artificer.
I think both SAC need to be reevaluated, but the Multiclass is, IMO, the more wrong.
If you rely on spell preparation as the definition of what class a cast spell belongs to, Warlock Invocations aren't Warlock spells. Species and Feat spells never work with a class, even if a spell only exists on one class's spell list. In addition, some of the scenarios are just silly. A single class Wizard who takes Magic Initiate (Wizard) can't treat those spells as Wizard spells?
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The Dragonmark feats from the Eberron UA don't give you any spell slots you wouldn't already have. They give you a way to cast their particular spell(s) without using a spell slot, which wouldn't trigger Wild Magic Surge because it's not using a spell slot.
Spell slots don't really have a class associated with them anyway.
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Fwiw my hunch is that a Wizard that dips Sorcerer just for the interaction with Innate Sorcery should not be game breaking. The strongest spell that I am seeing on both Lists that uses an attack roll appears to be Level 3, Vampiric Touch. Plus, Using the feature for the +1 to DC probably reaches a point where there are better things that you can do with your Bonus Action at high levels. I guess if anyone has seen this play out this way at their table it would be useful to hear if it was unbalanced.
Another huge Elephant in the room concerns spellcasting foci: can a Wizard spellcasting focus be used for a Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell?
I guess no because you're not using your Spellcasting feature to cast the Magic Initiate (Wizard) spell.
But if the answer is yes, we're entering a dangerous zone, because then you could even use your Sorcerer spellcasting focus for that spell if you're a Sorcerer/Wizard.
Or, and now we're diving straight into the Abyss, we're opening the gate to using your Wizard spellcasting focus for spells cast as a Sorcerer if that spell also happens to be a Wizard spell.
This is one of the reasons why I still think the multiclassing answer from the SAC has some value.
I can go into more detail later but for now I am confident that the rules given for whichever method is used to cast the spell must explicitly allow for the use of a Spellcasting Focus. So, for Magic Initiate you cannot use one.
I have to agree with you all that the answer is problematic, and in a RAW sense incorrect.
I guess my main issue with the answer is that it misrepresents the rule as written. They quote the rule "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes", ends it with a period and then goes on to make a claim about what it means. But that isn't what the rule actually says. The sentence doesn't end there with a period, it has a comma and then continues "and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell". So the rule tells us what the association means and that is something different from what the SAC answers claims it to be. Any meaning/limitation of "association" beyond that of determining what spellcasting ability to use is one that the rules never say, not in the multiclass chapter or in the spellcasting chapter. They might well have intended there to be such a limitation but they didn't actually write it into the game.
This might well be RAW but I'm not sure that the SAC answer is what says so. I'd say that it is more a consequence of how a character's spell list works (as opposed to a class spell list). Of course "character's spell list" is a seriously undercooked concept in the rules (go on do a search and see how many places it pops up in =) ). I'd say that they should have put a bit more time and effort into that as that would have been a better way to limit any multiclass spellcasting issues they might have been afraid of.
Of course I usually just ignore the issue of foci completely. The idea that an item that a character uses to focus their magic would only work for a specific type of magic is stupid to me. Surely a characters training in magic would allow them to learn to control both divine, arcane and nature magic with the same item, especially when there exists foci that aren't limited to a specific school/class.
I disagree. I think the danger you propose is unwarranted.
This is a Wizard class feature. A fighter with Magic Initiate (Wizard) doesn't have it. A Paladin with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant has the feature, but it doesn't apply to Unseen
ServantSquire because it is a Wizard only spell, not a Paladin spell. A Wizard with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Unseen Servant just has an extra Wizard spell and the Spellcasting Focus should work just fine.If you used Magic Initiate (Wizard) to get Detect Magic, it should be an Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell for class features because of this SAC answer:
What does a Sorcerer's Spellcasting Focus feature look at? Whether a spell is a Sorcerer spell. What is a Sorcerer spell? A spell on the Sorcerer spell list. Does it matter how it was prepared/known? No. The spellcasting entry makes no RAW requirements around that. Even the multiclassing entry makes no RAW requirements around that. It says that each spell prepared is "associated with a class", but does not state what that entails except that it uses the spellcasting ability score of that class. Granted, that could be a clarification of "associated with a class" or a separate statement altogether, but if it is not a clarification, there is no RAW import of being associated with a class within the PHB itself. The SAC interjects importance without basis that causes a conflict with other rules.
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I was thinking along the same lines. Allowing class features from one class to work with spells from another class shouldn't create any huge issues. You won't be getting any spell slots or access to higher level spells or similar than what your character should have, you'll just get to use your class features a bit more consistently. I'm sure there will be some good combos to be had and if need be then a DM could ban any truly OP combos that pops up but I'd be surprised if there are many.
I mean the issue sort of exists the other way round too with the Wizard sub-classes. Many of those features only specify "if you cast an X school spell" then the feature applies without specifying anything about it being a Wizard spell or it being cast with the Wizard spellcasting feature (some do though so it seems those that doesn't do so intentionally).