Ok I'm fed up with this. First orcs were removed from the 2024 MM. Along with all humanoid monsters. Their excuse was to use NPC stats. Use a tough in its place. Where is the lore? I thought maybe they would add orc monsters in the forgotten realms book. I could have sworn that there are were several FR novels about how cool orcs were. and how much a part of FR they were. Nope. At least we got some Drow. Why make this choice? Are you saying that I cannot be trusted with a monstrous being wielding an axe that is based on Tolkien and other enemies? The stats for a tough and 2014 orcs are very different. Tell me how having an orc as a monster stat in the MM is offensive to anyone? And orcs are just the most obvious. Deep gnomes, Duergar, Lizardfolk. You have practically removed these from a new GMs toolbox. Not only that but you have reduced the lore to 4E monster manual levels! People use that lore for ideas!. Removing them doesn't help in any way. If you want to make a statement about how not all orcs are brutes and have complex civilization then do that. But removing them from the toolbox is just stupid. A GM should not have to go to earlier editions for inspiration. Mostly because new GMs aren't going to have that stuff available.
You don't appear to be new here, but this argument has been hashed out several times already (the latest one not too long ago). The main points:
1. Lore is setting specific. The core books should be setting agnostic. If you want an orc, add a PC orc species ability to any of the NPC statblocks and you suddenly have an orc. You might have a point about FR, but I'm not an expert.
2. It isn't so much about offense (it's a bit about that) as it is book space and customizability. It is already a big MM (32 more pages than 2014). Now add 5-6 stat blocks for each species that could possibly be antagonistic and you've just added a bunch of text for little actual gain. Brand new DM? Grab the scout block and call it an orcish scout. Kinda new DM? Grab the scout block and add something "orcish" to it, then call it an orcish scout. Experienced DM? You don't need me to tell you how to use the MM.
3. DMs get inspiration from everywhere, older editions included. New DMs will likely be using pre-canned adventures for their first few sessions. The statblocks should either be there or tell the DM where it is (or how to make it) in the MM. Experienced DM? Again, you don't need me to tell you how to mold the MM to your inspiration.
Look, When I first heard they were removing those statblocks, I had a reaction much like you. But since, I've seen that nothing was really taken away. The 9 pages they devoted to NPC statblocks in the back of the 2014 MM are now just a part of the 2024 MM (and expanded) and none of the redundancy of also having an "orc" is there to make room for ~150 more monsters.
Now, would I have organized the 2024 MM differently? Probably. I would have kept the NPC statblocks together, and also the dragon, giant, demon, and devil statblocks together. I see the problem with that, though: at what point do you draw the line? Dragons in 2014 did not include the wyvern or the dragon turtle (both considered dragons, if not "true dragons").
Because WotC was so wise to make orcs instead of half-orcs a default playable race. Do Orcs actually appear as villains in current official adventures?
But then, when I look at the visual portrayal at the racial description in the 2024 Players Handbook...seems WotC went "orc-o-phile".
As has been pointed out, one of the biggest issues was space. Another was trying to make core books setting agnostic.
With that said, it feels to me like they should have done something in the Monster Manual along the lines of base stats and template modifiers for quick NPCs. Base stats would be things like Brigand, Warrior, Berserker, Bard, Assassin, etc. which then get some modifiers slapped onto them depending on the race (dwarves add 2 to the base Con, 1 to base Str, get Darkvision, Advantage on Poison saves, and Resistance to Poison. Orcs add 2 to base Str, 1 to base Con, get Darkvision, Adrenaline Rush and Relentless Endurance, etc.).
Of course they did do something like that back in 3/3.5, I think, so maybe experience has shown that the idea doesn't work as well as I imagine,
Whenever I read, “it will make it hard for new DMs to do this.” What I hear is, I know exactly how to do this myself, but I don’t want to put in the 30 seconds of work it takes to do it.
New DMs have been figuring out how to run the game for 50 years now. It’s easier than ever. They’ll be fine.
As has been pointed out, one of the biggest issues was space. Another was trying to make core books setting agnostic.
There could have been plenty of space, if they had left such nonsense as ‘performers’ out of the book (p. 236). In all honesty, who fills a dungeon with that? Such would be novelty encounter, and as such the stat blocks could also be put into the occasional adventure if they were needed.
There are more examples proving that WotC did not set their priorities right.
Add darkvision and bonus action dash (I don't recommend full-fledged relentless endurance or adrenaline rush due to added bookkeeping and possible CR change).
Presto, you have orcs. I'm not a big fan of the Tough stat block, there should be more variety in CR 1/4 and 1/2 humanoid templates, but there's no real need to call one of them an 'orc',
They rightfully decided angering people who don't see the problems with older depictions of orcs was less of a stock price slip than pissing off people who do see those & have social media proficiency & expertise.
Just because Ed Greenwood made it one way, doesn't mean it's aged well.
Less "XP fodder" stat blocks based on a race/species/culture/ancestry are a good thing anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
As has been pointed out, one of the biggest issues was space. Another was trying to make core books setting agnostic.
There could have been plenty of space, if they had left such nonsense as ‘performers’ out of the book (p. 236). In all honesty, who fills a dungeon with that? Such would be novelty encounter, and as such the stat blocks could also be put into the occasional adventure if they were needed.
There are more examples proving that WotC did not set their priorities right.
Perhaps some people have things happen outside of dungeons.
Really, what you are saying here is that WotC’s priorities don’t align with your own. That’s cool, everyone can and should have their own priorities. But that doesn’t mean either of you are right or wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Ok I'm fed up with this. First orcs were removed from the 2024 MM. Along with all humanoid monsters. Their excuse was to use NPC stats. Use a tough in its place. Where is the lore? I thought maybe they would add orc monsters in the forgotten realms book. I could have sworn that there are were several FR novels about how cool orcs were. and how much a part of FR they were. Nope. At least we got some Drow. Why make this choice? Are you saying that I cannot be trusted with a monstrous being wielding an axe that is based on Tolkien and other enemies? The stats for a tough and 2014 orcs are very different. Tell me how having an orc as a monster stat in the MM is offensive to anyone? And orcs are just the most obvious. Deep gnomes, Duergar, Lizardfolk. You have practically removed these from a new GMs toolbox. Not only that but you have reduced the lore to 4E monster manual levels! People use that lore for ideas!. Removing them doesn't help in any way. If you want to make a statement about how not all orcs are brutes and have complex civilization then do that. But removing them from the toolbox is just stupid. A GM should not have to go to earlier editions for inspiration. Mostly because new GMs aren't going to have that stuff available.
You don't appear to be new here, but this argument has been hashed out several times already (the latest one not too long ago). The main points:
1. Lore is setting specific. The core books should be setting agnostic. If you want an orc, add a PC orc species ability to any of the NPC statblocks and you suddenly have an orc. You might have a point about FR, but I'm not an expert.
2. It isn't so much about offense (it's a bit about that) as it is book space and customizability. It is already a big MM (32 more pages than 2014). Now add 5-6 stat blocks for each species that could possibly be antagonistic and you've just added a bunch of text for little actual gain. Brand new DM? Grab the scout block and call it an orcish scout. Kinda new DM? Grab the scout block and add something "orcish" to it, then call it an orcish scout. Experienced DM? You don't need me to tell you how to use the MM.
3. DMs get inspiration from everywhere, older editions included. New DMs will likely be using pre-canned adventures for their first few sessions. The statblocks should either be there or tell the DM where it is (or how to make it) in the MM. Experienced DM? Again, you don't need me to tell you how to mold the MM to your inspiration.
Look, When I first heard they were removing those statblocks, I had a reaction much like you. But since, I've seen that nothing was really taken away. The 9 pages they devoted to NPC statblocks in the back of the 2014 MM are now just a part of the 2024 MM (and expanded) and none of the redundancy of also having an "orc" is there to make room for ~150 more monsters.
Now, would I have organized the 2024 MM differently? Probably. I would have kept the NPC statblocks together, and also the dragon, giant, demon, and devil statblocks together. I see the problem with that, though: at what point do you draw the line? Dragons in 2014 did not include the wyvern or the dragon turtle (both considered dragons, if not "true dragons").
Because WotC was so wise to make orcs instead of half-orcs a default playable race. Do Orcs actually appear as villains in current official adventures?
But then, when I look at the visual portrayal at the racial description in the 2024 Players Handbook...seems WotC went "orc-o-phile".
As has been pointed out, one of the biggest issues was space. Another was trying to make core books setting agnostic.
With that said, it feels to me like they should have done something in the Monster Manual along the lines of base stats and template modifiers for quick NPCs. Base stats would be things like Brigand, Warrior, Berserker, Bard, Assassin, etc. which then get some modifiers slapped onto them depending on the race (dwarves add 2 to the base Con, 1 to base Str, get Darkvision, Advantage on Poison saves, and Resistance to Poison. Orcs add 2 to base Str, 1 to base Con, get Darkvision, Adrenaline Rush and Relentless Endurance, etc.).
Of course they did do something like that back in 3/3.5, I think, so maybe experience has shown that the idea doesn't work as well as I imagine,
Whenever I read, “it will make it hard for new DMs to do this.” What I hear is, I know exactly how to do this myself, but I don’t want to put in the 30 seconds of work it takes to do it.
New DMs have been figuring out how to run the game for 50 years now. It’s easier than ever. They’ll be fine.
There could have been plenty of space, if they had left such nonsense as ‘performers’ out of the book (p. 236). In all honesty, who fills a dungeon with that? Such would be novelty encounter, and as such the stat blocks could also be put into the occasional adventure if they were needed.
There are more examples proving that WotC did not set their priorities right.
How to create an orc stat block:
Presto, you have orcs. I'm not a big fan of the Tough stat block, there should be more variety in CR 1/4 and 1/2 humanoid templates, but there's no real need to call one of them an 'orc',
They rightfully decided angering people who don't see the problems with older depictions of orcs was less of a stock price slip than pissing off people who do see those & have social media proficiency & expertise.
Just because Ed Greenwood made it one way, doesn't mean it's aged well.
Less "XP fodder" stat blocks based on a race/species/culture/ancestry are a good thing anyway.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Perhaps some people have things happen outside of dungeons.
Really, what you are saying here is that WotC’s priorities don’t align with your own. That’s cool, everyone can and should have their own priorities. But that doesn’t mean either of you are right or wrong.