Concentration is purely a house rule. If you don't have some concentration requirement then, RAW, the grapple could be forever, which was probably not WOTC's intent. I think you'd have trouble pointing to another control spell or effect that wasn't limited either by duration or concentration (or both), particularly one available at 3rd level. In fact, the 9th level Abjure Foes (Channel Divinity) class feature has a 1 minute duration as does 2nd level Cleric Turn Undead (Channel Divinity). And fwiw, the restrained effect is absolutely magically induced, similar to Bigby's, which is why the grapple break is spell save DC based.
Honestly, this reasoning is incomprehensible to me. The material was moved by magic, but the material is itself mundane. If you were encased in earth, you'd be trapped until you could free yourself.
Dao's Crush literally encases the target in earth. While it's a magical effect, the effect is instantaneous - the encasing earth is not maintained magically, just moved magically. You're restrained until you escape, someone digs you out, or you die there (at which point your corpse is still technically restrained).
The idea that effects can't last indefinitely is... nonsense. Bones of the Earth can also restrain a creature indefinitely (there's a control spell that lasts potentially indefinitely). And the material moved by Move Earth stays moved after the spell ends (although not a control spell, same principle - magically moved materials are mundane after being moved and stay moved after the spell ends). It is not similar to Bigby's, because the restraining object in Bigby's is a magical force that has a duration. Dao's Crush is instantaneous - it has no duration, the magic happens and is done. The restraining object is mundane earth and rock.
@Squirrelloid - Not sure why you've decided to describe things you disagree with as "incomprehensible" or "nonsense." Putting that aside, if your take is that Tables shouldn't adopt house rules to correct some of WOTC's overreaches, then I just disagree with you. It's literally the point of house rules.
Among other things, the spell you reference as an analog is a 6th level spell (11th level) whereas the Channel Divinity is a 3rd level class action - that is without precedent as a spell against which there is no initial save and unlimited duration without concentration.
FWIW, under RAW: CR 18 Fiend (Amnizu) with 11 Str and 13 Dex vs. a Paladin Pal with DC of 22 (High Cha +/- Amulet of the Devout) then the Fiend is Grappled FOREVER upon the use of a 1st level spell and a channel divinity charge. Like, bye Felicia. You may not feel that's a problem (and may correctly believe it's a pretty entertaining story element), but we think it would completely unbalance the game. If you were to tell me that, with the use of Circle Magic, or with some other ability, you could make the grapple indefinite, I'm not opposed, but at 3rd level this is not only OP but it also in my opinion would frequently frustrate the storytelling (and hence the fun).
That said, we agree with you that the Paladin is not "the grappler" (per Treantmonk video) as I don't think it withstands an ordinary reading of the ability.
@Squirrelloid - Not sure why you've decided to describe things you disagree with as "incomprehensible" or "nonsense." Putting that aside, if your take is that Tables shouldn't adopt house rules to correct some of WOTC's overreaches, then I just disagree with you. It's literally the point of house rules.
Among other things, the spell you reference as an analog is a 6th level spell (11th level) whereas the Channel Divinity is a 3rd level class action - that is without precedent as a spell against which there is no initial save and unlimited duration without concentration.
FWIW, under RAW: CR 18 Fiend (Amnizu) with 11 Str and 13 Dex vs. a Paladin Pal with DC of 22 (High Cha +/- Amulet of the Devout) then the Fiend is Grappled FOREVER upon the use of a 1st level spell and a channel divinity charge. Like, bye Felicia. You may not feel that's a problem (and may correctly believe it's a pretty entertaining story element), but we think it would completely unbalance the game. If you were to tell me that, with the use of Circle Magic, or with some other ability, you could make the grapple indefinite, I'm not opposed, but at 3rd level this is not only OP but it also in my opinion would frequently frustrate the storytelling (and hence the fun).
That said, we agree with you that the Paladin is not "the grappler" (per Treantmonk video) as I don't think it withstands an ordinary reading of the ability.
It's not about balance. It's about versimillitude. That all effects must have a duration is what's incomprehensible to me. There's plenty of things you can do, using magic or not, which would create indefinite effects, and they should, even at 1st level. (It's not even about it being a story element. It's about what is being represented, and how that should function).
I don't think 'is indefinite restraint appropriate for level x'. That's incomprehensible. I think 'is moving as much dirt/rock as Dao's Crush suggests appropriate for level X (=3)', and it is. You can move 125 cubic feet of dirt/soil/earth as a cantrip. That's more than enough to restrain most creatures if you could put it around a creature. (Dao's Crush lets you, the cantrip does not).
Not that I care at all about "balance" (whatever you think that means), but it's not actually a balance problem. Whether its 3 rounds or indefinite is barely a difference in 99% of cases, and Dao's Crush is limited by your divinity charges per day, so you've expended a limited resource to do that. Mission accomplished. The enemy isn't one encounter, its the whole adventuring day. Making you use limited resources is what encounters should cost.
FWIW, under RAW: CR 18 Fiend (Amnizu) with 11 Str and 13 Dex vs. a Paladin Pal with DC of 22 (High Cha +/- Amulet of the Devout) then the Fiend is Grappled FOREVER upon the use of a 1st level spell and a channel divinity charge.
How common is this scenario with monsters updated for 5.24? I feel like this is a check that should auto succeed on a 20. It doesn't; I'm not say it does.
@Smite 5.24 does not have "auto success" or "auto failure" rules like 5e (or BG3), except for attack rolls, so a natural 20 is just a 20+ whatever modifiers apply against whatever DC you are trying to reach (which may be 30 in some cases). Source: DMG "Resolving Outcomes": Degrees of Success / Critical Success or Failure.
@Squirrelloid - Not sure why you've decided to describe things you disagree with as "incomprehensible" or "nonsense." Putting that aside, if your take is that Tables shouldn't adopt house rules to correct some of WOTC's overreaches, then I just disagree with you. It's literally the point of house rules.
Among other things, the spell you reference as an analog is a 6th level spell (11th level) whereas the Channel Divinity is a 3rd level class action - that is without precedent as a spell against which there is no initial save and unlimited duration without concentration.
FWIW, under RAW: CR 18 Fiend (Amnizu) with 11 Str and 13 Dex vs. a Paladin Pal with DC of 22 (High Cha +/- Amulet of the Devout) then the Fiend is Grappled FOREVER upon the use of a 1st level spell and a channel divinity charge. Like, bye Felicia. You may not feel that's a problem (and may correctly believe it's a pretty entertaining story element), but we think it would completely unbalance the game. If you were to tell me that, with the use of Circle Magic, or with some other ability, you could make the grapple indefinite, I'm not opposed, but at 3rd level this is not only OP but it also in my opinion would frequently frustrate the storytelling (and hence the fun).
That said, we agree with you that the Paladin is not "the grappler" (per Treantmonk video) as I don't think it withstands an ordinary reading of the ability.
It's not about balance. It's about versimillitude. That all effects must have a duration is what's incomprehensible to me. There's plenty of things you can do, using magic or not, which would create indefinite effects, and they should, even at 1st level. (It's not even about it being a story element. It's about what is being represented, and how that should function).
I don't think 'is indefinite restraint appropriate for level x'. That's incomprehensible. I think 'is moving as much dirt/rock as Dao's Crush suggests appropriate for level X (=3)', and it is. You can move 125 cubic feet of dirt/soil/earth as a cantrip. That's more than enough to restrain most creatures if you could put it around a creature. (Dao's Crush lets you, the cantrip does not).
Not that I care at all about "balance" (whatever you think that means), but it's not actually a balance problem. Whether its 3 rounds or indefinite is barely a difference in 99% of cases, and Dao's Crush is limited by your divinity charges per day, so you've expended a limited resource to do that. Mission accomplished. The enemy isn't one encounter, its the whole adventuring day. Making you use limited resources is what encounters should cost.
@squirrel - Again with things like "incomprehensible". smh - I think I'm done trying to have a productive conversation with you.
For the rest of you folks on this thread, I'm interested in how other tables have handled this issue, which clearly has sparked much debate.
@Smite 5.24 does not have "auto success" or "auto failure" rules like 5e (or BG3), except for attack rolls, so a natural 20 is just a 20+ whatever modifiers apply against whatever DC you are trying to reach (which may be 30 in some cases). Source: DMG "Resolving Outcomes": Degrees of Success / Critical Success or Failure.
The hand has a set duration. The grappled condition does not.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The duration of Bigby’s Hand spell the end of the grapple, but the grapple itself it no set duration and can be escaped.
What i meant is that i can't think of an effect saying something like;
Honestly, this reasoning is incomprehensible to me. The material was moved by magic, but the material is itself mundane. If you were encased in earth, you'd be trapped until you could free yourself.
Dao's Crush literally encases the target in earth. While it's a magical effect, the effect is instantaneous - the encasing earth is not maintained magically, just moved magically. You're restrained until you escape, someone digs you out, or you die there (at which point your corpse is still technically restrained).
The idea that effects can't last indefinitely is... nonsense. Bones of the Earth can also restrain a creature indefinitely (there's a control spell that lasts potentially indefinitely). And the material moved by Move Earth stays moved after the spell ends (although not a control spell, same principle - magically moved materials are mundane after being moved and stay moved after the spell ends). It is not similar to Bigby's, because the restraining object in Bigby's is a magical force that has a duration. Dao's Crush is instantaneous - it has no duration, the magic happens and is done. The restraining object is mundane earth and rock.
@Squirrelloid - Not sure why you've decided to describe things you disagree with as "incomprehensible" or "nonsense." Putting that aside, if your take is that Tables shouldn't adopt house rules to correct some of WOTC's overreaches, then I just disagree with you. It's literally the point of house rules.
Among other things, the spell you reference as an analog is a 6th level spell (11th level) whereas the Channel Divinity is a 3rd level class action - that is without precedent as a spell against which there is no initial save and unlimited duration without concentration.
FWIW, under RAW: CR 18 Fiend (Amnizu) with 11 Str and 13 Dex vs. a Paladin Pal with DC of 22 (High Cha +/- Amulet of the Devout) then the Fiend is Grappled FOREVER upon the use of a 1st level spell and a channel divinity charge. Like, bye Felicia. You may not feel that's a problem (and may correctly believe it's a pretty entertaining story element), but we think it would completely unbalance the game. If you were to tell me that, with the use of Circle Magic, or with some other ability, you could make the grapple indefinite, I'm not opposed, but at 3rd level this is not only OP but it also in my opinion would frequently frustrate the storytelling (and hence the fun).
That said, we agree with you that the Paladin is not "the grappler" (per Treantmonk video) as I don't think it withstands an ordinary reading of the ability.
It's not about balance. It's about versimillitude. That all effects must have a duration is what's incomprehensible to me. There's plenty of things you can do, using magic or not, which would create indefinite effects, and they should, even at 1st level. (It's not even about it being a story element. It's about what is being represented, and how that should function).
I don't think 'is indefinite restraint appropriate for level x'. That's incomprehensible. I think 'is moving as much dirt/rock as Dao's Crush suggests appropriate for level X (=3)', and it is. You can move 125 cubic feet of dirt/soil/earth as a cantrip. That's more than enough to restrain most creatures if you could put it around a creature. (Dao's Crush lets you, the cantrip does not).
Not that I care at all about "balance" (whatever you think that means), but it's not actually a balance problem. Whether its 3 rounds or indefinite is barely a difference in 99% of cases, and Dao's Crush is limited by your divinity charges per day, so you've expended a limited resource to do that. Mission accomplished. The enemy isn't one encounter, its the whole adventuring day. Making you use limited resources is what encounters should cost.
How common is this scenario with monsters updated for 5.24? I feel like this is a check that should auto succeed on a 20. It doesn't; I'm not say it does.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
@Smite 5.24 does not have "auto success" or "auto failure" rules like 5e (or BG3), except for attack rolls, so a natural 20 is just a 20+ whatever modifiers apply against whatever DC you are trying to reach (which may be 30 in some cases). Source: DMG "Resolving Outcomes": Degrees of Success / Critical Success or Failure.
@squirrel - Again with things like "incomprehensible". smh - I think I'm done trying to have a productive conversation with you.
For the rest of you folks on this thread, I'm interested in how other tables have handled this issue, which clearly has sparked much debate.
That's what I said.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.