So I am curious about them. I know based on the Rarity it can be a cantrip or a Spell up to the 5th Level. Since it can be used from everyone who has the Tattoo on them they don't consume a Spell Slot right? Since for example if a Barbarian has it then he could use it even he doesn't have a Spell Slot. But how does Upcasting work in this case? Could you turn it into a 6th Level or higher Spell? As for example if I use the 2nd Level Spell Web for a Tattoo could I turn it into a 7th Level version? And if that doesn't work like that would there be a way to make something similar work?
Mmm... Not entirely correct as of recent books. The Thayan Spell Tattoo is up to a 3rd-level spell. While it can be cast (and consumed in the process) for free once, it also adds the spell to your known spells while attuned, meaning it CAN be upcast.
RAW whenever you cast without a slot, it cannot be upcast without explicit language to that effect since all of those spells specifically check what spell slot was used for that modification. Offhand I wouldn't think it'd be gamebreaking if a DM allows you to find/make/buy a spell tattoo, scroll, etc. of the appropriate level/rarity and upcast from it- damage spells generally don't scale as well as something naturally of that level and offhand nothing else springs to mind that will be markedly more broken as an upcast compared to an option at that spell level.
Mmm... Not entirely correct as of recent books. The Thayan Spell Tattoo is up to a 3rd-level spell. While it can be cast (and consumed in the process) for free once, it also adds the spell to your known spells while attuned, meaning it CAN be upcast.
Which is not what they asked about, they asked about the Spelkwrought Tattoo, a specific magic item. So my statement is entirely correct
Mmm... Not entirely correct as of recent books. The Thayan Spell Tattoo is up to a 3rd-level spell. While it can be cast (and consumed in the process) for free once, it also adds the spell to your known spells while attuned, meaning it CAN be upcast.
Which is not what they asked about, they asked about the Spelkwrought Tattoo, a specific magic item. So my statement is entirely correct
But a scroll compared to a Spellwrought Tattoo is different from my understanding? Because from what I found you can basically cast any Spell into a Scroll no matter the Level as long as you have the corresponding Time and Gold for it. So if I have the Time and Gold for a Fireball at 6th Level then I could make a Scroll of it or not? Or is it the same to a Spelkwrought Tattoo that I can't Upcast into a Scroll to save it as a 6th Level Scroll?
But a scroll compared to a Spellwrought Tattoo is different from my understanding? Because from what I found you can basically cast any Spell into a Scroll no matter the Level as long as you have the corresponding Time and Gold for it. So if I have the Time and Gold for a Fireball at 6th Level then I could make a Scroll of it or not? Or is it the same to a Spelkwrought Tattoo that I can't Upcast into a Scroll to save it as a 6th Level Scroll?
There's a couple differences between the scrolls and tattoos, but this is not explicit to either of them. The main points are that scrolls require you to be a caster and make a roll to cast above your spell slots while the tattoos don't require either, but the tattoos occupy space on your body, limiting your stock and they only go up to 5th level. Strictly by RAW, since you are casting from either without using a slot, the casts cannot benefit from upcast bonuses. As I and others have previously said, though, there's no pressing balance reason why any magic item like this can't have a higher level cast of a spell stored, assuming the item is treated as the rarity equivalent to the casting level for acquisition purposes.
Oh yes I forgot about that "you have to be a caster" part for the scrolls. Also if I remember right it has to be Class depending right? Like a Wizard Spell scroll can only be used from a Wizard, a Sorcerer Spell scroll only from a Sorcerer and so on. Unless something else allows you to cast a Wizard Spell for example.
Oh ok so even up casting them before doesn't work. I thought only upcasting after it would not work. Like I did understand that you can't make a 3rd Level Fireball Scroll/Tattoo and then Upcasting it to a 5th Level Spell, but I hoped you could do it the other way around. Like making a 5th Level Fireball and saving it in a Scroll/Tattoo.
But looks like this also doesn't work unless the DM allows it. So thanks for clarifying that part again.
Yes I did have in mind that I would need more Time and Gold to make a Scroll for a 5th Level Scroll/Tattoo compared to a 3th Level Scroll/Tattoo if the DM allows it.
The casting requirement of spell scribing is basically just a limit on what your character can do so you can’t fill a bunch of gaps in your repertoire with scrolls. Mechanically, you are not “storing” the cast the way you would with a Ring of Spell Storing or similar object, since you’ll note the DC and attack bonus for a given level are fixed values.
Well the idea was more or less that I did have a fight in mind against a specific enemy that I would love to have being part as something like a side quest or "post story" quest based on my character backstory. And to play out the fight as planned I try to find out how I can achieve being able to cast more of a specific Spell.
Even I just realized that the Spell I did have in mind is actually needing a higher Spell Slot then I expected.... And while Magic Items like Spell Storing work yes but they are limited to Level 5. So since the spell is Level 8 as I just realized and not Level 5, it would not work with.
That's why I hoped that this method would work for letting me cast that Spell as a Level 7+ Spell. Because most items I found just say you can save up a smaller Level Spells, same as most features of Classes or Subclass who can degenerate Spell Slots.
Until now everything I have is that if the DM allows it I could Upcast either with Scrolls, Tattoos or Mystic Arcanum as I saw in an older thread. But since the Spell is Level 8 the tattoos are no longer even an option. So at best case I could have 2 Level 8 Slots and 1 Level 9 Slot as a Level 20 Char. And that would be only 3 Casts of that Spell. And it also would not work with a Mystic Arcanum of a Warlock because I get the option for Level 8 Spells not until Warlock Level 15 and Level 9 Slots until Level 17. So both Options kinda exclude each other. So i am Stuck with having 3 out of 6 needed Casts while there are also 2 other Spells I need to try finding a way to cast at Level 9.
So I would be stuck with making a bunch of high Level scrolls I assume?
That means 60 Days and 15K Gold for a Level 8 Scroll and 120 Days and 50k Gold for a Level 9 Scroll based on the Spell Scroll costs in the PHB 233. And that's without Material Component Cost.
BUT I am not sure where that was but I did read once somewhere it was mentioned that it states somewhere that the time is half of that if it's an one time use Magic Item? Does that even count for Scrolls because I thought they are one time use anyway or can I make one that I can use forever?
I mean all Spells are on the Wizard Spell list. So if I make a Wizard Artificer Multi class. If I take the Order of Scribes and Cartographer Subclasses, then I can reduce the time even further. As soon as I hit Total Level 13 (10 Wizard Order of Scribes/3 Artificer Cartographer) I can make a Level 8 Scroll in 15 Days and a Level 9 Scroll in 30 Days (7,5 Days and 15 Days, if one Time use = Half Time actually works and exists). Even Gold Cost gets reduced to 7,5k and 25K Gold.
Wizard Subclass Order of Scribes halves Time and Gold needed at Level 10 with Master Scriver. And Artificer Subclass Cartographer also halves the Time at Level 3 with Tools of Trade. And I can halve both once more if My Wizard Order of Scribes matches the Corresponding School of Magic. Sadly all 3 Spells have a different School.
Problem is from what I found that Order of Scribes only exists in 2014 rules while the Cartographer only exists in 2024.
And I just found out you can hire people to cast Spells for me? Don't even know how that works.
Regarding costs, spell scrolls have their own tables independent of the general crafting ones for both 2014 and 2024 rules. As for trying to choreograph a fight as a player, my advice is to not get invested in that unless your DM is onboard with essentially staging a cutscene- players generally can’t rely on being able to stage manage the setup if that’s relevant, and you can typically count on the RNG to foul up some part of a plan. And yes, they have specifically made it quite hard to get additional casts of level 6+ spells, so that’s a significant roadblock as well.
Yeah I know that, the once I wrote are from that specific table for scrolls and not the general table.
And yes I should talk with the DM over my plan but I don't want to just win the fight because the DM let me. I want to earn that victory and actually go against RNG and trying my best to plan for every possible situation that could work against my plan so I am prepared for it. Like for example having in mind the lucky feat, Metamagic Heightened Spell Feature or silvery barbs just for turning RNG more into my favor and other spells just for situations like that.
Yeah I feel that's the biggest Roadblock so far I need to get past. Right now I am trying to find a way to "Pause a fight" just to get a long rest in between it with something like the Planar Binding Spell that forcing a creature to do as a I say, even it will try to twist my words as much as possible. With that spell holding up for 24h I can easily put a 8h long rest in between it. Even that kinda sounds like cheating the fight but outside of that I don't know a better way other then to hire a spellcaster for casting the spells. But I would assume that NPCs would be trying to stay away from bigger fights even if they are hired to help
Keep in mind whatever you're fighting will presumably get a long rest as well, so you're both back where you started. And really, you can't pull off something as big as what you're indicating without the DM being onboard.
Yes I mean I will talk with my DM about how exactly my plan is and so on but if for example my enemy would have legendary resistance because Its the first thing that comes to mind for me right now, then I don't want the DM to not activate the them just to make my fight work the way I want it to work and rather that he keeps treating my character fight like every other fight in the campaign.
But wouldn't it only count as long rest for the enemy if I based on my last example allow it to take the actions required to count as a long rest? Like that would be 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of doing downtime activities if I remember right to count as long rest? So I just need to refuse the enemy to sleep with Planar Binding as detailed as possible, and getting my long rest while whatever it does would not count for a long rest.
Why if you've already somehow managed to hit them with a Planar Binding do you need a bunch of additional hoops? That's already an "I win" condition. You can literally order them to take a long walk off a short, steep cliff or some equivalent and they'd do it. If that won't do it, you're way beyond something you can build a plan with player facing tools to kill.
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So I am curious about them. I know based on the Rarity it can be a cantrip or a Spell up to the 5th Level. Since it can be used from everyone who has the Tattoo on them they don't consume a Spell Slot right? Since for example if a Barbarian has it then he could use it even he doesn't have a Spell Slot. But how does Upcasting work in this case? Could you turn it into a 6th Level or higher Spell? As for example if I use the 2nd Level Spell Web for a Tattoo could I turn it into a 7th Level version? And if that doesn't work like that would there be a way to make something similar work?
No, it doesn't use a spell slot and no you can't upcast it. There is no way to achieve anything like that
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Mmm... Not entirely correct as of recent books. The Thayan Spell Tattoo is up to a 3rd-level spell. While it can be cast (and consumed in the process) for free once, it also adds the spell to your known spells while attuned, meaning it CAN be upcast.
RAW whenever you cast without a slot, it cannot be upcast without explicit language to that effect since all of those spells specifically check what spell slot was used for that modification. Offhand I wouldn't think it'd be gamebreaking if a DM allows you to find/make/buy a spell tattoo, scroll, etc. of the appropriate level/rarity and upcast from it- damage spells generally don't scale as well as something naturally of that level and offhand nothing else springs to mind that will be markedly more broken as an upcast compared to an option at that spell level.
Which is not what they asked about, they asked about the Spelkwrought Tattoo, a specific magic item. So my statement is entirely correct
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
But a scroll compared to a Spellwrought Tattoo is different from my understanding? Because from what I found you can basically cast any Spell into a Scroll no matter the Level as long as you have the corresponding Time and Gold for it. So if I have the Time and Gold for a Fireball at 6th Level then I could make a Scroll of it or not? Or is it the same to a Spelkwrought Tattoo that I can't Upcast into a Scroll to save it as a 6th Level Scroll?
There's no special balance concerns about "casts spell X at level Y" with rarity set by what Y is, it's just not something I've seen them actually do.
There's a couple differences between the scrolls and tattoos, but this is not explicit to either of them. The main points are that scrolls require you to be a caster and make a roll to cast above your spell slots while the tattoos don't require either, but the tattoos occupy space on your body, limiting your stock and they only go up to 5th level. Strictly by RAW, since you are casting from either without using a slot, the casts cannot benefit from upcast bonuses. As I and others have previously said, though, there's no pressing balance reason why any magic item like this can't have a higher level cast of a spell stored, assuming the item is treated as the rarity equivalent to the casting level for acquisition purposes.
Oh yes I forgot about that "you have to be a caster" part for the scrolls. Also if I remember right it has to be Class depending right? Like a Wizard Spell scroll can only be used from a Wizard, a Sorcerer Spell scroll only from a Sorcerer and so on. Unless something else allows you to cast a Wizard Spell for example.
Oh ok so even up casting them before doesn't work. I thought only upcasting after it would not work. Like I did understand that you can't make a 3rd Level Fireball Scroll/Tattoo and then Upcasting it to a 5th Level Spell, but I hoped you could do it the other way around. Like making a 5th Level Fireball and saving it in a Scroll/Tattoo.
But looks like this also doesn't work unless the DM allows it. So thanks for clarifying that part again.
Yes I did have in mind that I would need more Time and Gold to make a Scroll for a 5th Level Scroll/Tattoo compared to a 3th Level Scroll/Tattoo if the DM allows it.
The casting requirement of spell scribing is basically just a limit on what your character can do so you can’t fill a bunch of gaps in your repertoire with scrolls. Mechanically, you are not “storing” the cast the way you would with a Ring of Spell Storing or similar object, since you’ll note the DC and attack bonus for a given level are fixed values.
Well the idea was more or less that I did have a fight in mind against a specific enemy that I would love to have being part as something like a side quest or "post story" quest based on my character backstory. And to play out the fight as planned I try to find out how I can achieve being able to cast more of a specific Spell.
Even I just realized that the Spell I did have in mind is actually needing a higher Spell Slot then I expected.... And while Magic Items like Spell Storing work yes but they are limited to Level 5. So since the spell is Level 8 as I just realized and not Level 5, it would not work with.
That's why I hoped that this method would work for letting me cast that Spell as a Level 7+ Spell. Because most items I found just say you can save up a smaller Level Spells, same as most features of Classes or Subclass who can degenerate Spell Slots.
Until now everything I have is that if the DM allows it I could Upcast either with Scrolls, Tattoos or Mystic Arcanum as I saw in an older thread. But since the Spell is Level 8 the tattoos are no longer even an option. So at best case I could have 2 Level 8 Slots and 1 Level 9 Slot as a Level 20 Char. And that would be only 3 Casts of that Spell. And it also would not work with a Mystic Arcanum of a Warlock because I get the option for Level 8 Spells not until Warlock Level 15 and Level 9 Slots until Level 17. So both Options kinda exclude each other. So i am Stuck with having 3 out of 6 needed Casts while there are also 2 other Spells I need to try finding a way to cast at Level 9.
So I would be stuck with making a bunch of high Level scrolls I assume?
That means 60 Days and 15K Gold for a Level 8 Scroll and 120 Days and 50k Gold for a Level 9 Scroll based on the Spell Scroll costs in the PHB 233. And that's without Material Component Cost.
BUT I am not sure where that was but I did read once somewhere it was mentioned that it states somewhere that the time is half of that if it's an one time use Magic Item? Does that even count for Scrolls because I thought they are one time use anyway or can I make one that I can use forever?
I mean all Spells are on the Wizard Spell list. So if I make a Wizard Artificer Multi class. If I take the Order of Scribes and Cartographer Subclasses, then I can reduce the time even further. As soon as I hit Total Level 13 (10 Wizard Order of Scribes/3 Artificer Cartographer) I can make a Level 8 Scroll in 15 Days and a Level 9 Scroll in 30 Days (7,5 Days and 15 Days, if one Time use = Half Time actually works and exists). Even Gold Cost gets reduced to 7,5k and 25K Gold.
Wizard Subclass Order of Scribes halves Time and Gold needed at Level 10 with Master Scriver. And Artificer Subclass Cartographer also halves the Time at Level 3 with Tools of Trade. And I can halve both once more if My Wizard Order of Scribes matches the Corresponding School of Magic. Sadly all 3 Spells have a different School.
Problem is from what I found that Order of Scribes only exists in 2014 rules while the Cartographer only exists in 2024.
And I just found out you can hire people to cast Spells for me? Don't even know how that works.
Regarding costs, spell scrolls have their own tables independent of the general crafting ones for both 2014 and 2024 rules. As for trying to choreograph a fight as a player, my advice is to not get invested in that unless your DM is onboard with essentially staging a cutscene- players generally can’t rely on being able to stage manage the setup if that’s relevant, and you can typically count on the RNG to foul up some part of a plan. And yes, they have specifically made it quite hard to get additional casts of level 6+ spells, so that’s a significant roadblock as well.
Yeah I know that, the once I wrote are from that specific table for scrolls and not the general table.
And yes I should talk with the DM over my plan but I don't want to just win the fight because the DM let me. I want to earn that victory and actually go against RNG and trying my best to plan for every possible situation that could work against my plan so I am prepared for it. Like for example having in mind the lucky feat, Metamagic Heightened Spell Feature or silvery barbs just for turning RNG more into my favor and other spells just for situations like that.
Yeah I feel that's the biggest Roadblock so far I need to get past. Right now I am trying to find a way to "Pause a fight" just to get a long rest in between it with something like the Planar Binding Spell that forcing a creature to do as a I say, even it will try to twist my words as much as possible. With that spell holding up for 24h I can easily put a 8h long rest in between it. Even that kinda sounds like cheating the fight but outside of that I don't know a better way other then to hire a spellcaster for casting the spells. But I would assume that NPCs would be trying to stay away from bigger fights even if they are hired to help
Keep in mind whatever you're fighting will presumably get a long rest as well, so you're both back where you started. And really, you can't pull off something as big as what you're indicating without the DM being onboard.
Yes I mean I will talk with my DM about how exactly my plan is and so on but if for example my enemy would have legendary resistance because Its the first thing that comes to mind for me right now, then I don't want the DM to not activate the them just to make my fight work the way I want it to work and rather that he keeps treating my character fight like every other fight in the campaign.
But wouldn't it only count as long rest for the enemy if I based on my last example allow it to take the actions required to count as a long rest? Like that would be 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of doing downtime activities if I remember right to count as long rest? So I just need to refuse the enemy to sleep with Planar Binding as detailed as possible, and getting my long rest while whatever it does would not count for a long rest.
Why if you've already somehow managed to hit them with a Planar Binding do you need a bunch of additional hoops? That's already an "I win" condition. You can literally order them to take a long walk off a short, steep cliff or some equivalent and they'd do it. If that won't do it, you're way beyond something you can build a plan with player facing tools to kill.