The point wasn't ever that a specific technique had to be used. It was that the value of the product was potentially higher than just its weight. That time, other reagents, and effort went into its production. Could you generate powdered silver mechanically? Close enough, sure. But the effort and energy to do so is even more than the chemical precipitation method. In a world where Alchemy is a skill, choosing to slowly grind a giant hunk of silver down to a fine powder is a silly decision.
Of course, silver doesn't come out of the ground in giant hunks, it comes out of the ground as ores, which are refined, typically producing small beads (how large depends on the size of your cup); actually converting it into ingots is a separate step. If there's a bulk need for ground silver it would just be produced in that form directly from the refinery.
The real problem is that holy water (flask) requires 25gp in materials; by the time characters have wealth enough that 25 gp consumables are a rational choice, 2d6 damage (requires an attack roll, no proficiency bonus) is not a credible attack choice. Similar problems apply to acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask).
The real problem is that holy water (flask) requires 25gp in materials; by the time characters have wealth enough that 25 gp consumables are a rational choice, 2d6 damage (requires an attack roll, no proficiency bonus) is not a credible attack choice. Similar problems apply to acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask).
Agreed. But that's a design problem, not a rules problem.
So, I came across this and I have had a thought about it. Powdered silver. Which is a fine dust similar to powdered sugar. This is a specially made materiel. It is pure silver, not coin silver, or bullion silver shaved down.
47 Ag 107.87 Purity 99.9 Particle Size 1-5 Micron This is industrial powdered silver
Now it is chemically produced using electricity. Something that is not common in a D&D or medieval setting. This would require a specialized magical item or a magic user that can produce electricity over a long period of time. So, this would explain one the cost of it being high and two the amount being used really low. The purified water is mixed with the silver and the divine magic then binds the silver powder to the water as powdered silver cannot be suspended for long periods of time. The silver does not cost by weight 25 GP, but the process and its rarity and the "donations" to the alchemist priests or monks to get the powder make it cost prohibitive to make it yourself.
A 16-ounce flask probably contains no more than a good pinch or two of powdered silver. In my opinion I do not think that any character below level ten would ever justify the cost to obtaining a flask of holy water compared to a flask of oil that ignites on contact. A flask of oil costs 1 sp a bottle of grain alcohol about the same both can produce fire. way cheaper to produce. flask of oil 5 points of burning damage party of 4 to 6 adventures 3 to 5 flasks of oil one flaming arrow or torch, 15 to 25 points of damage holy water 2d6 burning hands spell 3d6
So, a cleric or priest class adventurer probably could produce blessed holy water all day long, but to actually burn the undead they would have to go to their temple and request the flask of blessed silver holy water.
I'm convinced all the items that could be used in combat are basically priced so high that players never use them more than once, because the designers didn't want to balance around them. They were afraid of a scenario where, for example, clerics would use poisoned blades or alchemist's fire instead of casting sacred flame just because it was better. Because that's betraying the fiction of the cleric class! So they really just nuked these things into oblivion.
They needn't have worried, though. I've had groups recover whole crates of alchemical items from dungeons and still never use them.
The thing I've always been curious about is, why does holy water require silver on a thematic level?
I'm convinced all the items that could be used in combat are basically priced so high that players never use them more than once, because the designers didn't want to balance around them. They were afraid of a scenario where, for example, clerics would use poisoned blades or alchemist's fire instead of casting sacred flame just because it was better. Because that's betraying the fiction of the cleric class! So they really just nuked these things into oblivion.
They needn't have worried, though. I've had groups recover whole crates of alchemical items from dungeons and still never use them.
The thing I've always been curious about is, why does holy water require silver on a thematic level?
I agree. Sadly, the devs seem to be afraid of players getting creative with basic items. I get that part of the marketing for 5E is "epic fantasy" and centering combat with swords and spells is one proven way to do it profitably. However, that does mean a shortened leash for those players that want more creative manipulation of the fictional environment. That desire for a more sandbox-feel goes against the Adventurer's League ethos, though, where the relative anonymity of the players means that restrictions on creative tinkering are subtly enforced to maximize the 3 to 4 hours at that table with that one DM whom you might never play with again. I'm almost convinced that Alchemists got pigeon-holed into being healbots for these reasons.
The PHB has two ways of creating Holy Water. According to one part, "Adventuring Gear", a Cleric or Paladin perform a special ritual that expends a 1st level spell and 25 gp value of powdered silver. The second way is for a Cleric or other class to cast the 1st level spell Ceremony (found on page 2 of Unearthed Arcana: Starter Spells, and on page 151 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything). This way still has listed the cost for material components at 25 gp of powdered silver. In my opinion, and with playing D&D since 1977, these both are WAY too pricey for a single flask, that if bought at a church cost's the same 25 gp.
1st Edition used a basin that was prayed over and blessed for a primary receptacle. Initial cost was from a simple copper basin of 130+ gp value up to a platinum basin worth a staggering 200,000 gp. This was to please your god and make money for the church. The capacity of each basin went from 6 vials to 50 vails according to the type of basin. The higher the cost the happier the god was to supply the water. You then performed 5 spells, create water, purify food & drink (water), bless the water, chant for 1 full turn and finally prayer for your god to create the holy water.
I liked the simpler and much more reasonable 2nd edition way of having a blessed water basin made with at least 100 gp value of material, casting create water, purify water and bless the water and the vials that you store the water in. This takes 1 hour for 4 vials or only 1 Flask. The only recurring cost are the vials with cork stoppers or a flask with a sealable lid. Vials hold 4 ounces each, usable to coat a weapon or splash (ranged attack) someone inside a 5' range @ 1d4+1 damage. A coated weapon gains 1d4 of radiant damage for 1 minute. This correlates with the Bless Spell perfectly. A flask is higher cost, holds 16 ounces and can be used as a thrown weapon 5-20' range with splash damage.
D&D isn't based on making sense. It is based on game balance. So it costs you the same either way for balance. I don't agree with it, but that is the most likely logic behind it
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Of course, silver doesn't come out of the ground in giant hunks, it comes out of the ground as ores, which are refined, typically producing small beads (how large depends on the size of your cup); actually converting it into ingots is a separate step. If there's a bulk need for ground silver it would just be produced in that form directly from the refinery.
The real problem is that holy water (flask) requires 25gp in materials; by the time characters have wealth enough that 25 gp consumables are a rational choice, 2d6 damage (requires an attack roll, no proficiency bonus) is not a credible attack choice. Similar problems apply to acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask).
Agreed. But that's a design problem, not a rules problem.
So, I came across this and I have had a thought about it. Powdered silver. Which is a fine dust similar to powdered sugar. This is a specially made materiel. It is pure silver, not coin silver, or bullion silver shaved down.
47 Ag 107.87
Purity 99.9
Particle Size 1-5 Micron This is industrial powdered silver
Now it is chemically produced using electricity. Something that is not common in a D&D or medieval setting. This would require a specialized magical item or a magic user that can produce electricity over a long period of time. So, this would explain one the cost of it being high and two the amount being used really low. The purified water is mixed with the silver and the divine magic then binds the silver powder to the water as powdered silver cannot be suspended for long periods of time. The silver does not cost by weight 25 GP, but the process and its rarity and the "donations" to the alchemist priests or monks to get the powder make it cost prohibitive to make it yourself.
A 16-ounce flask probably contains no more than a good pinch or two of powdered silver.
In my opinion I do not think that any character below level ten would ever justify the cost to obtaining a flask of holy water compared to a flask of oil that ignites on contact.
A flask of oil costs 1 sp a bottle of grain alcohol about the same both can produce fire. way cheaper to produce.
flask of oil 5 points of burning damage party of 4 to 6 adventures 3 to 5 flasks of oil one flaming arrow or torch, 15 to 25 points of damage
holy water 2d6 burning hands spell 3d6
So, a cleric or priest class adventurer probably could produce blessed holy water all day long, but to actually burn the undead they would have to go to their temple and request the flask of blessed silver holy water.
This thread is a bit old, but in case anyone was curious about the value of different materials by weight: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment#TradeGoodsTable
I'm convinced all the items that could be used in combat are basically priced so high that players never use them more than once, because the designers didn't want to balance around them. They were afraid of a scenario where, for example, clerics would use poisoned blades or alchemist's fire instead of casting sacred flame just because it was better. Because that's betraying the fiction of the cleric class! So they really just nuked these things into oblivion.
They needn't have worried, though. I've had groups recover whole crates of alchemical items from dungeons and still never use them.
The thing I've always been curious about is, why does holy water require silver on a thematic level?
I agree. Sadly, the devs seem to be afraid of players getting creative with basic items. I get that part of the marketing for 5E is "epic fantasy" and centering combat with swords and spells is one proven way to do it profitably. However, that does mean a shortened leash for those players that want more creative manipulation of the fictional environment. That desire for a more sandbox-feel goes against the Adventurer's League ethos, though, where the relative anonymity of the players means that restrictions on creative tinkering are subtly enforced to maximize the 3 to 4 hours at that table with that one DM whom you might never play with again. I'm almost convinced that Alchemists got pigeon-holed into being healbots for these reasons.
The PHB has two ways of creating Holy Water. According to one part, "Adventuring Gear", a Cleric or Paladin perform a special ritual that expends a 1st level spell and 25 gp value of powdered silver. The second way is for a Cleric or other class to cast the 1st level spell Ceremony (found on page 2 of Unearthed Arcana: Starter Spells, and on page 151 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything). This way still has listed the cost for material components at 25 gp of powdered silver. In my opinion, and with playing D&D since 1977, these both are WAY too pricey for a single flask, that if bought at a church cost's the same 25 gp.
1st Edition used a basin that was prayed over and blessed for a primary receptacle. Initial cost was from a simple copper basin of 130+ gp value up to a platinum basin worth a staggering 200,000 gp. This was to please your god and make money for the church. The capacity of each basin went from 6 vials to 50 vails according to the type of basin. The higher the cost the happier the god was to supply the water. You then performed 5 spells, create water, purify food & drink (water), bless the water, chant for 1 full turn and finally prayer for your god to create the holy water.
I liked the simpler and much more reasonable 2nd edition way of having a blessed water basin made with at least 100 gp value of material, casting create water, purify water and bless the water and the vials that you store the water in. This takes 1 hour for 4 vials or only 1 Flask. The only recurring cost are the vials with cork stoppers or a flask with a sealable lid. Vials hold 4 ounces each, usable to coat a weapon or splash (ranged attack) someone inside a 5' range @ 1d4+1 damage. A coated weapon gains 1d4 of radiant damage for 1 minute. This correlates with the Bless Spell perfectly. A flask is higher cost, holds 16 ounces and can be used as a thrown weapon 5-20' range with splash damage.
D&D isn't based on making sense.
It is based on game balance.
So it costs you the same either way for balance.
I don't agree with it, but that is the most likely logic behind it