That was a fun 2 hour read! Here is the nitpickiest albeit possible wrong interpretation as you might know passages of rules that prove me wrong.
OA say:
You can make an opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity Attack, you use your Reaction to make one melee Attack against the provoking creature. The Attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
The operative words here being 'moves out of' and 'leave'. I can 'leave' your reach in several ways that are not 'move out' as has been discussed, like beinged pushed, hurled, teleported etc. There by the opportunity attack occuring the movement changes from move out' to 'leaves'. Otherwise given you have several reactions (no idea if this ever occurs) by moving away you would incur a possible infinit loop of OA as the logical order of moving out, time being turned back, you get attacked, you move out of reach, time gets turned back... would happen over and over.
I have no idea if there are many clues to the difference of move out and leave (or even compared to leaving...) but one seems fairly obvious, leaving is a lot broader while moving out is rather specific.
You could go the route saying leaving is unwilling and moving out is willing for example. But this would contradict the ruling that seems the most official as this way you end up 10 ft away with an active boom and the possibilty of triggering it or not.
You could say 'right bevor leaving' is so that the creature can change its mind as it could say 'while leaving'. This would be in line with the official ruling.
Also think about this: what is more logic breaking: an AO having more than 5 ft reach or it occurring BEVOR the trigger that lets it even happen? So why even bother stating it happens bevor leaving if there is 0 chance of something happening after the AO and the actual leaving of the range?
For those arguing with momentum: don't... Go learn HEMA and you will see this discussion is so far removed from reality that it is laughable to bring it in.
And those arguing for time: if i turn and run you try to hit me with the AO i still technically have time between you hitting me to use my bonus action with some shenanigans to increase my ac to make your hit miss even though i know it would have hit and then use my reaction to your AO to attack you back, and all this occueing between ft 4.999999999 and ft 5. A lot happening in that schrödingers reach moment ;)
My personal stance is: first hit primes first explosion that is triggered on declaring to try to escape (as this involves movement) as it triggers immediately when moved using movement (which the intent to move out of range HAS to be), until you moved to edge of range which triggers the AO of which you get the full up front dmg and priming second ecplosion but giving you the possibilty of rethinking your life and if you want to keep moving. (Especially if this was a rogue and you just got 2 sneakattacks possibly). So after just getting around 2d6+1d8+2*str/dex at low level or up to something like 22d6+10d8+2*str/dex you really need that feeling of denying them mitigation of 1d8-4d8 or you feel underpowered?
Also Then all the reasons why you might know or want to change your decision come into play that are up to good RP.
And to those complaining that there might not be a trigger all of a sudden for the AO, what exactly is the problem of that? Continuity is already broken by the mechanic of AO so if you care about that hate AOs. And you just got to dish out tons of dmg with the enemy still being within your reach, so the same situation if the enemy had done NOTHING but with a lot of added dmg. The probability of you benching on that added dmg to take out the enemy for you to survive seems VERY unlikely and if that is all that the combat depends on the monster probably will mysteriosly die or not die, whatever the dm wants to accomplish, disregarding that 1d8 or so...
That’s how we play it ... seems consistent wth the rules as interpret them. I especially like this bit where Jhfffan said:
“I'll take the 1d4 to 2d6 damage from the weapon plus the 0 to 3d8 damage from the spell along with the sneak attack damage, or hex damage, or smite damage or whatever other damage your character has a right by the rules to inflict upon my character (almost all of which will be more clearly defined than the hot steaming mess that this combo is). What I'm arguing is that the OA rules don't say that A) you have to continue moving after taking the OA and they clearly state that the OA happens before you leave the reach of the character performing the OA, which means that either I haven't left the square yet or I'm so close that seconds won't pass before I do. And B) the OA rules don't say that the movement is interrupted. Just that the OA takes place.”
If Sentinel can reduce a target’s movement to zero, then a target can also choose to reduce their movement to zero. The laws of physics in the universe have to be maintained. If you are going to ignore momentum in one case, you must also in the other. The idea that a person must continue moving when they are being attacked is ridiculous, mostly because it is clearly not the case with Sentinel.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeremy Crawford’s interpretation.
If Sentinel can reduce a target’s movement to zero, then a target can also choose to reduce their movement to zero. The laws of physics in the universe have to be maintained. If you are going to ignore momentum in one case, you must also in the other. The idea that a person must continue moving when they are being attacked is ridiculous, mostly because it is clearly not the case with Sentinel.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeremy Crawford’s interpretation.
It would make sense if the person made the decision to move and invoke the AO that they had to commit to moving otherwise there wouldn't be an AO. Its like o they're gonna hit me with booming blade never mind I'm not gonna move. An AO is supposed to take place in like a second you're telling me that someone or something will realize in that second(normally with their back turned) that they'll recognize they're getting hit with a booming blade and decide yea I'm gonna stand here instead. It's just not plausible that that would happen in that time or that they'd even recognize the spell or that you can even see the booming energy since thunder doesn't have a shape its sound. Its just dumb that someone would decide to move then stop moving because then you can argue that you're just not gonna move and avoid taking the hit since you know whats gonna happen. When hitting with the sentinel feat I'm assuming its because they're hit with such force that they're stopped dead in their tracks and become winded and unable to move.
If Sentinel can reduce a target’s movement to zero, then a target can also choose to reduce their movement to zero. The laws of physics in the universe have to be maintained. If you are going to ignore momentum in one case, you must also in the other. The idea that a person must continue moving when they are being attacked is ridiculous, mostly because it is clearly not the case with Sentinel.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeremy Crawford’s interpretation.
It would make sense if the person made the decision to move and invoke the AO that they had to commit to moving otherwise there wouldn't be an AO. Its like o they're gonna hit me with booming blade never mind I'm not gonna move. An AO is supposed to take place in like a second you're telling me that someone or something will realize in that second(normally with their back turned) that they'll recognize they're getting hit with a booming blade and decide yea I'm gonna stand here instead. It's just not plausible that that would happen in that time or that they'd even recognize the spell or that you can even see the booming energy since thunder doesn't have a shape its sound. Its just dumb that someone would decide to move then stop moving because then you can argue that you're just not gonna move and avoid taking the hit since you know whats gonna happen. When hitting with the sentinel feat I'm assuming its because they're hit with such force that they're stopped dead in their tracks and become winded and unable to move.
The Booming Sound is what would cause you to stop. "Wait, that's new... I don't like that... I better figure out what that is." In the meantime, the AO has already occured, the damage has been inflicted from the attack and whatever else might stack with it, it's just the bonus damage from moving that we're arguing is not hitting.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects,
and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Sheathed in Booming Energy. That's what I'm assuming would be the thing that would cause a creature to pause. Something like that is either going to trigger a flight response, which is completely justified, or it's going to cause someone to go into a freeze-and-identify state. Both responses are intended to prevent harm (or further harm). Saying that a creature has to take the flight method is tantamount to telling the player of that creature how they should play their character.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects,
and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Sheathed in Booming Energy. That's what I'm assuming would be the thing that would cause a creature to pause. Something like that is either going to trigger a flight response, which is completely justified, or it's going to cause someone to go into a freeze-and-identify state. Both responses are intended to prevent harm (or further harm). Saying that a creature has to take the flight method is tantamount to telling the player of that creature how they should play their character.
Which I'd agree on a normal hit but not on and attack of op. AO is specifically for enemies or players who decide to move before knowing whats going to happen to them. Its like letting someone hit you just to see if they're gonna use a spell or not lol just doesn't make sense. Like what DM is like you moving you'll risk an AO the player says yea I'll move then they hit them with an really bad attack and the player is just like naw lets negate all that i don't wanna move know knowing whats gonna happen. There movement that allows the AO Id say should be the same movement that triggers the spells after effect. Just because now you wanna meta game and decide not to move because you know you'll take more damage if you do doesn't really make sense.
Like if its playing out as a real battle attack of ops happen instantly the person getting hit doesn't have time to sit there and think hmmm he just cast a spell on me so I'm not gonna move now. Or like i said before is the person just standing there shrugs there shoulders and says yea Im gonna move so just hit me. o crap he hit me with a booming blade idk if I wanna take all that extra damage now guess I'll just stand here where he just hit me at. I mean does that not sound dumb to anyone else lol.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects,
and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Sheathed in Booming Energy. That's what I'm assuming would be the thing that would cause a creature to pause. Something like that is either going to trigger a flight response, which is completely justified, or it's going to cause someone to go into a freeze-and-identify state. Both responses are intended to prevent harm (or further harm). Saying that a creature has to take the flight method is tantamount to telling the player of that creature how they should play their character.
Which I'd agree on a normal hit but not on and attack of op. AO is specifically for enemies or players who decide to move before knowing whats going to happen to them. Its like letting someone hit you just to see if they're gonna use a spell or not lol just doesn't make sense. Like what DM is like you moving you'll risk an AO the player says yea I'll move then they hit them with an really bad attack and the player is just like naw lets negate all that i don't wanna move know knowing whats gonna happen. There movement that allows the AO Id say should be the same movement that triggers the spells after effect. Just because now you wanna meta game and decide not to move because you know you'll take more damage if you do doesn't really make sense.
Like if its playing out as a real battle attack of ops happen instantly the person getting hit doesn't have time to sit there and think hmmm he just cast a spell on me so I'm not gonna move now. Or like i said before is the person just standing there shrugs there shoulders and says yea Im gonna move so just hit me. o crap he hit me with a booming blade idk if I wanna take all that extra damage now guess I'll just stand here where he just hit me at. I mean does that not sound dumb to anyone else lol.
So now you want to tell the player that they can't play the character the way they want and you want to call them dumb? You want to do this because they have a different response to stimulae than you or what you deem appropriate?
Or is it because you want to metagame the situation and say this is guaranteed to trigger the damage so I'll cast it, but if it's not, then I'll cast something else? If you want that extra damage, then cast something that gets you that extra damage. If you're willing to deal with the attack and whatever damage that you can get from the attack without waiting for the sheathing secondary damage while waiting to see what happens, then cast Booming Blade.
Or should we also tell you the AC, HP, and other vitals of the creature before you decide which spell to attack with?
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
And that’s exactly the point of the cantrip: to disincentivize further movement. It’s a tank spell.
Just let the spell do what it’s meant to do rather than inventing new forced movement rules out of nowhere.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects,
and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Sheathed in Booming Energy. That's what I'm assuming would be the thing that would cause a creature to pause. Something like that is either going to trigger a flight response, which is completely justified, or it's going to cause someone to go into a freeze-and-identify state. Both responses are intended to prevent harm (or further harm). Saying that a creature has to take the flight method is tantamount to telling the player of that creature how they should play their character.
Which I'd agree on a normal hit but not on and attack of op. AO is specifically for enemies or players who decide to move before knowing whats going to happen to them. Its like letting someone hit you just to see if they're gonna use a spell or not lol just doesn't make sense. Like what DM is like you moving you'll risk an AO the player says yea I'll move then they hit them with an really bad attack and the player is just like naw lets negate all that i don't wanna move know knowing whats gonna happen. There movement that allows the AO Id say should be the same movement that triggers the spells after effect. Just because now you wanna meta game and decide not to move because you know you'll take more damage if you do doesn't really make sense.
Like if its playing out as a real battle attack of ops happen instantly the person getting hit doesn't have time to sit there and think hmmm he just cast a spell on me so I'm not gonna move now. Or like i said before is the person just standing there shrugs there shoulders and says yea Im gonna move so just hit me. o crap he hit me with a booming blade idk if I wanna take all that extra damage now guess I'll just stand here where he just hit me at. I mean does that not sound dumb to anyone else lol.
So now you want to tell the player that they can't play the character the way they want and you want to call them dumb? You want to do this because they have a different response to stimulae than you or what you deem appropriate?
Or is it because you want to metagame the situation and say this is guaranteed to trigger the damage so I'll cast it, but if it's not, then I'll cast something else? If you want that extra damage, then cast something that gets you that extra damage. If you're willing to deal with the attack and whatever damage that you can get from the attack without waiting for the sheathing secondary damage while waiting to see what happens, then cast Booming Blade.
Or should we also tell you the AC, HP, and other vitals of the creature before you decide which spell to attack with?
its not limiting at all to how people want to play. You've already made the decision to move you can't change your mind because you don't like the outcome. Even watching CR if its a bad move he doesn't let them go back on it. Which is why he makes sure they want to move and accept the results of the AO. And in order to cast it on an AO anyway they have to have war caster and be a spell caster. As i said before combat wise it makes no sense to "lower your guard" and take the AO then decide not to move. Like practice at home turn around and have someone hit you while you're moving and see if you can stop on a dime to avoid taking extra damage.. a combat turn is suppose to be 6 seconds so an AO would be like 1 second and in that 1 second when you're already moving at the pace to move 30feet in 3 seconds you're gonna be able to register a hit and stop in that split second to not take extra damage? Don't think so.
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
Which I'd agree if it was a regular hit and not an attack of op hit. They've already made the decision to move out of your space which is the trigger for the spell.
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
And that’s exactly the point of the cantrip: to disincentivize further movement. It’s a tank spell.
Just let the spell do what it’s meant to do rather than inventing new forced movement rules out of nowhere.
it's not forced movement.... they already made the choice to move hence why they're getting hit with an attack of op lol
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
And that’s exactly the point of the cantrip: to disincentivize further movement. It’s a tank spell.
Just let the spell do what it’s meant to do rather than inventing new forced movement rules out of nowhere.
it's not forced movement.... they already made the choice to move hence why they're getting hit with an attack of op lol
It is absolutely forced movement. Having been hit with AoO (or similar; the spell granted by War Mage isn't actually an AoO) is new information that any rational actor can choose to ignore or not. If you say "no, sorry, you have to ignore this new information and keep moving," you are arbitrarily taking away from the player a choice that the game gives them.
Saga's spot on. They act of preparing to leave triggers the attack, they don't have to physically leave. according to the rule:
The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
So, by rule, the attack happens /before/ the movement actually happens. At that point, the creature can decide to change its mind, and no longer move out of reach. It's a niche case, because why would you want to change your mind, after you've already been punished? The answer is because if you complete the move, you may take more punishment, in this case a booming blade proc. That doesn't mean the OA never happened because the movement never happened...the opportunity was triggered by an opening created when the creature /started/ to move.
The DM is /not/ required to continue the move and auto-proc the BB.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Saga's spot on. They act of preparing to leave triggers the attack, they don't have to physically leave. according to the rule:
The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
So, by rule, the attack happens /before/ the movement actually happens. At that point, the creature can decide to change its mind, and no longer move out of reach. It's a niche case, because why would you want to change your mind, after you've already been punished? The answer is because if you complete the move, you may take more punishment, in this case a booming blade proc. That doesn't mean the OA never happened because the movement never happened...the opportunity was triggered by an opening created when the creature /started/ to move.
The DM is /not/ required to continue the move and auto-proc the BB.
Nor would a player if the DM had a creature with the same combo. If a player gave me grief about it while we were in session, I'd tell them to pick a new cantrip because they wouldn't have Booming Blade anymore. If a DM told me that I had to move after taking the OA, then I'd move after taking the OA because the DM is adjudicating the rules and that's how it works in their game, but I'd hold them to the same expectation during their game. However, there is literally nothing that says that you have to move after taking any OA. Why would you want to stay after taking the punishment? I've answered that before in this thread, but trying to figure out what is going on is a fine reason to do so. The fact that the creature attacking with the OA just presented themself as an aggressive threat would be another.
Another aspect to consider is why would you not want the creature to stop? Most wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers will be among the squishier characters of the party and aren't likely to be using Booming Blade or to get a chance to use it on an OA since they'll likely be focused down if my creatures get on them. It's much more likely that a creature who can withstand much more damage would be equipped with both Booming Booming Blade and Warcaster while presenting a tougher target that a creature would want to leave. For example, my most recent game had an instance where our party engaged a dragon and my barbarian was wanting to keep the dragon's attention. However, the dragon was getting whittled down and noticed that the party was mostly behind a door attacking it. It moved to the door to use its breath attack which ended up knocking out a player and an NPC from full health and putting another within a solo attack of going down. Only the Warlock and myself were out of range. I happened to be raging and happened to miss my OA (and also don't have either Warcaster or Booming Blade), but if the circumstances were different, I would have much rather had the dragon stop and attack me than unleash that same attack on the party. Would you rather get your extra 1d8 to 4d8 damage and be on the verge of a TPK or have the enemy redirect at you and continue to get their attacks in while you continue to hold its attention?
And if you'd rather have the enemy leave because you can't take the hits, then the entire discussion is probably moot because that soft caster meat is tasty to my dragon looking to take your spoils and snack on your body so you won't get the chance to make the OA regardless or if you do, the movement will happen because there is something that has presented itself as a better target. And that target is likely to get munched in a bad way.
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
And that’s exactly the point of the cantrip: to disincentivize further movement. It’s a tank spell.
Just let the spell do what it’s meant to do rather than inventing new forced movement rules out of nowhere.
it's not forced movement.... they already made the choice to move hence why they're getting hit with an attack of op lol
It is absolutely forced movement. Having been hit with AoO (or similar; the spell granted by War Mage isn't actually an AoO) is new information that any rational actor can choose to ignore or not. If you say "no, sorry, you have to ignore this new information and keep moving," you are arbitrarily taking away from the player a choice that the game gives them.
But if you're playing combat out in real time the person wouldn't know what happened in time. The player or monster already made the choice to move and thus grant an AoO. Otherwise the person wouldn't move to begin with and thus wouldn't invoke an AoO. As I said before combat is supposed to take place in a matter of seconds If you decide you're going to move 30ft away from someone you're going to be moving at a pretty hefty pace to get there in 1 or 2 seconds. Yes you the player have the time to sit there and think however, in the scope of it being only a few seconds of battle your character wouldn't know. Because if you eliminate the attack being a spell and just a regular hit whose gonna stop dead in their tracks and be like o man was there a spell used? Better just stand here and not move any further just encase.
Saga's spot on. They act of preparing to leave triggers the attack, they don't have to physically leave. according to the rule:
The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
So, by rule, the attack happens /before/ the movement actually happens. At that point, the creature can decide to change its mind, and no longer move out of reach. It's a niche case, because why would you want to change your mind, after you've already been punished? The answer is because if you complete the move, you may take more punishment, in this case a booming blade proc. That doesn't mean the OA never happened because the movement never happened...the opportunity was triggered by an opening created when the creature /started/ to move.
The DM is /not/ required to continue the move and auto-proc the BB.
Nor would a player if the DM had a creature with the same combo. If a player gave me grief about it while we were in session, I'd tell them to pick a new cantrip because they wouldn't have Booming Blade anymore. If a DM told me that I had to move after taking the OA, then I'd move after taking the OA because the DM is adjudicating the rules and that's how it works in their game, but I'd hold them to the same expectation during their game. However, there is literally nothing that says that you have to move after taking any OA. Why would you want to stay after taking the punishment? I've answered that before in this thread, but trying to figure out what is going on is a fine reason to do so. The fact that the creature attacking with the OA just presented themself as an aggressive threat would be another.
Another aspect to consider is why would you not want the creature to stop? Most wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers will be among the squishier characters of the party and aren't likely to be using Booming Blade or to get a chance to use it on an OA since they'll likely be focused down if my creatures get on them. It's much more likely that a creature who can withstand much more damage would be equipped with both Booming Booming Blade and Warcaster while presenting a tougher target that a creature would want to leave. For example, my most recent game had an instance where our party engaged a dragon and my barbarian was wanting to keep the dragon's attention. However, the dragon was getting whittled down and noticed that the party was mostly behind a door attacking it. It moved to the door to use its breath attack which ended up knocking out a player and an NPC from full health and putting another within a solo attack of going down. Only the Warlock and myself were out of range. I happened to be raging and happened to miss my OA (and also don't have either Warcaster or Booming Blade), but if the circumstances were different, I would have much rather had the dragon stop and attack me than unleash that same attack on the party. Would you rather get your extra 1d8 to 4d8 damage and be on the verge of a TPK or have the enemy redirect at you and continue to get their attacks in while you continue to hold its attention?
And if you'd rather have the enemy leave because you can't take the hits, then the entire discussion is probably moot because that soft caster meat is tasty to my dragon looking to take your spoils and snack on your body so you won't get the chance to make the OA regardless or if you do, the movement will happen because there is something that has presented itself as a better target. And that target is likely to get munched in a bad way.
In the case I argue isn't for one of those its for the Eldritch Knight. An EK with booming blade and war caster can help take down a lot of foes who try to get away from it. If something is moving away and thus invoking the AoO then it's already made the decision to move. Changing its mind in a split second because it got hit doesn't make any sense. Like urg u got me I guess I'll just stand here while you got a free hit. Taking the spell out of it what pc or creature is going to leave your reach knowing its going to get hit just to allow its self to get hit then stop. Why bother moving in the first place then unless you hope they miss with their attack. And since they landed the attack you decide well now I'm not moving cuz I'll take more damage. Which If your character doesn't know the spell they wouldn't know to stand still and not move so you're then meta gaming to avoid the extra damage.
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That was a fun 2 hour read! Here is the nitpickiest albeit possible wrong interpretation as you might know passages of rules that prove me wrong.
OA say:
You can make an opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity Attack, you use your Reaction to make one melee Attack against the provoking creature. The Attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
The operative words here being 'moves out of' and 'leave'. I can 'leave' your reach in several ways that are not 'move out' as has been discussed, like beinged pushed, hurled, teleported etc. There by the opportunity attack occuring the movement changes from move out' to 'leaves'. Otherwise given you have several reactions (no idea if this ever occurs) by moving away you would incur a possible infinit loop of OA as the logical order of moving out, time being turned back, you get attacked, you move out of reach, time gets turned back... would happen over and over.
I have no idea if there are many clues to the difference of move out and leave (or even compared to leaving...) but one seems fairly obvious, leaving is a lot broader while moving out is rather specific.
You could go the route saying leaving is unwilling and moving out is willing for example. But this would contradict the ruling that seems the most official as this way you end up 10 ft away with an active boom and the possibilty of triggering it or not.
You could say 'right bevor leaving' is so that the creature can change its mind as it could say 'while leaving'. This would be in line with the official ruling.
Also think about this: what is more logic breaking: an AO having more than 5 ft reach or it occurring BEVOR the trigger that lets it even happen? So why even bother stating it happens bevor leaving if there is 0 chance of something happening after the AO and the actual leaving of the range?
For those arguing with momentum: don't... Go learn HEMA and you will see this discussion is so far removed from reality that it is laughable to bring it in.
And those arguing for time: if i turn and run you try to hit me with the AO i still technically have time between you hitting me to use my bonus action with some shenanigans to increase my ac to make your hit miss even though i know it would have hit and then use my reaction to your AO to attack you back, and all this occueing between ft 4.999999999 and ft 5. A lot happening in that schrödingers reach moment ;)
My personal stance is: first hit primes first explosion that is triggered on declaring to try to escape (as this involves movement) as it triggers immediately when moved using movement (which the intent to move out of range HAS to be), until you moved to edge of range which triggers the AO of which you get the full up front dmg and priming second ecplosion but giving you the possibilty of rethinking your life and if you want to keep moving. (Especially if this was a rogue and you just got 2 sneakattacks possibly). So after just getting around 2d6+1d8+2*str/dex at low level or up to something like 22d6+10d8+2*str/dex you really need that feeling of denying them mitigation of 1d8-4d8 or you feel underpowered?
Also Then all the reasons why you might know or want to change your decision come into play that are up to good RP.
And to those complaining that there might not be a trigger all of a sudden for the AO, what exactly is the problem of that? Continuity is already broken by the mechanic of AO so if you care about that hate AOs. And you just got to dish out tons of dmg with the enemy still being within your reach, so the same situation if the enemy had done NOTHING but with a lot of added dmg. The probability of you benching on that added dmg to take out the enemy for you to survive seems VERY unlikely and if that is all that the combat depends on the monster probably will mysteriosly die or not die, whatever the dm wants to accomplish, disregarding that 1d8 or so...
True then. True now.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That’s how we play it ... seems consistent wth the rules as interpret them. I especially like this bit where Jhfffan said:
“I'll take the 1d4 to 2d6 damage from the weapon plus the 0 to 3d8 damage from the spell along with the sneak attack damage, or hex damage, or smite damage or whatever other damage your character has a right by the rules to inflict upon my character (almost all of which will be more clearly defined than the hot steaming mess that this combo is). What I'm arguing is that the OA rules don't say that A) you have to continue moving after taking the OA and they clearly state that the OA happens before you leave the reach of the character performing the OA, which means that either I haven't left the square yet or I'm so close that seconds won't pass before I do. And B) the OA rules don't say that the movement is interrupted. Just that the OA takes place.”
If Sentinel can reduce a target’s movement to zero, then a target can also choose to reduce their movement to zero. The laws of physics in the universe have to be maintained. If you are going to ignore momentum in one case, you must also in the other. The idea that a person must continue moving when they are being attacked is ridiculous, mostly because it is clearly not the case with Sentinel.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeremy Crawford’s interpretation.
It would make sense if the person made the decision to move and invoke the AO that they had to commit to moving otherwise there wouldn't be an AO. Its like o they're gonna hit me with booming blade never mind I'm not gonna move. An AO is supposed to take place in like a second you're telling me that someone or something will realize in that second(normally with their back turned) that they'll recognize they're getting hit with a booming blade and decide yea I'm gonna stand here instead. It's just not plausible that that would happen in that time or that they'd even recognize the spell or that you can even see the booming energy since thunder doesn't have a shape its sound. Its just dumb that someone would decide to move then stop moving because then you can argue that you're just not gonna move and avoid taking the hit since you know whats gonna happen. When hitting with the sentinel feat I'm assuming its because they're hit with such force that they're stopped dead in their tracks and become winded and unable to move.
The Booming Sound is what would cause you to stop. "Wait, that's new... I don't like that... I better figure out what that is." In the meantime, the AO has already occured, the damage has been inflicted from the attack and whatever else might stack with it, it's just the bonus damage from moving that we're arguing is not hitting.
Well before level 5 you hit doesn't make any sound because it only does thunder damage on hit at lvl 5 and higher. Simply saying if you decide to move and commit to moving so they get an AO then you commit to taking the extra thunder damage as well. I'd determine that you're already in the process of moving when the AO happens which it states that they drop their guard to move and you see an opening to hit. Moving out of the persons area and getting hit is all supposed to be done at the same time so there wouldn't be any time to think about whats hitting you and stopping. I'd say it be like being made to run a gauntlet and getting hit you wouldn't stop because someone used a move cuz you wouldn't know.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects,
and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Sheathed in Booming Energy. That's what I'm assuming would be the thing that would cause a creature to pause. Something like that is either going to trigger a flight response, which is completely justified, or it's going to cause someone to go into a freeze-and-identify state. Both responses are intended to prevent harm (or further harm). Saying that a creature has to take the flight method is tantamount to telling the player of that creature how they should play their character.
Which I'd agree on a normal hit but not on and attack of op. AO is specifically for enemies or players who decide to move before knowing whats going to happen to them. Its like letting someone hit you just to see if they're gonna use a spell or not lol just doesn't make sense. Like what DM is like you moving you'll risk an AO the player says yea I'll move then they hit them with an really bad attack and the player is just like naw lets negate all that i don't wanna move know knowing whats gonna happen. There movement that allows the AO Id say should be the same movement that triggers the spells after effect. Just because now you wanna meta game and decide not to move because you know you'll take more damage if you do doesn't really make sense.
Like if its playing out as a real battle attack of ops happen instantly the person getting hit doesn't have time to sit there and think hmmm he just cast a spell on me so I'm not gonna move now. Or like i said before is the person just standing there shrugs there shoulders and says yea Im gonna move so just hit me. o crap he hit me with a booming blade idk if I wanna take all that extra damage now guess I'll just stand here where he just hit me at. I mean does that not sound dumb to anyone else lol.
So now you want to tell the player that they can't play the character the way they want and you want to call them dumb? You want to do this because they have a different response to stimulae than you or what you deem appropriate?
Or is it because you want to metagame the situation and say this is guaranteed to trigger the damage so I'll cast it, but if it's not, then I'll cast something else? If you want that extra damage, then cast something that gets you that extra damage. If you're willing to deal with the attack and whatever damage that you can get from the attack without waiting for the sheathing secondary damage while waiting to see what happens, then cast Booming Blade.
Or should we also tell you the AC, HP, and other vitals of the creature before you decide which spell to attack with?
I don't see the problem with someone stopping if they're hit by Booming Blade. It would make sense for them to think better of it.
And as a player I wouldn't mind that either. If you think about it - them stopping is basically you getting the benefit of the Sentinel feat. If they run you do the damage. It's a win-win.
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And that’s exactly the point of the cantrip: to disincentivize further movement. It’s a tank spell.
Just let the spell do what it’s meant to do rather than inventing new forced movement rules out of nowhere.
its not limiting at all to how people want to play. You've already made the decision to move you can't change your mind because you don't like the outcome. Even watching CR if its a bad move he doesn't let them go back on it. Which is why he makes sure they want to move and accept the results of the AO. And in order to cast it on an AO anyway they have to have war caster and be a spell caster. As i said before combat wise it makes no sense to "lower your guard" and take the AO then decide not to move. Like practice at home turn around and have someone hit you while you're moving and see if you can stop on a dime to avoid taking extra damage.. a combat turn is suppose to be 6 seconds so an AO would be like 1 second and in that 1 second when you're already moving at the pace to move 30feet in 3 seconds you're gonna be able to register a hit and stop in that split second to not take extra damage? Don't think so.
Which I'd agree if it was a regular hit and not an attack of op hit. They've already made the decision to move out of your space which is the trigger for the spell.
it's not forced movement.... they already made the choice to move hence why they're getting hit with an attack of op lol
It is absolutely forced movement. Having been hit with AoO (or similar; the spell granted by War Mage isn't actually an AoO) is new information that any rational actor can choose to ignore or not. If you say "no, sorry, you have to ignore this new information and keep moving," you are arbitrarily taking away from the player a choice that the game gives them.
Saga's spot on. They act of preparing to leave triggers the attack, they don't have to physically leave. according to the rule:
The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
So, by rule, the attack happens /before/ the movement actually happens. At that point, the creature can decide to change its mind, and no longer move out of reach. It's a niche case, because why would you want to change your mind, after you've already been punished? The answer is because if you complete the move, you may take more punishment, in this case a booming blade proc. That doesn't mean the OA never happened because the movement never happened...the opportunity was triggered by an opening created when the creature /started/ to move.
The DM is /not/ required to continue the move and auto-proc the BB.
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Nor would a player if the DM had a creature with the same combo. If a player gave me grief about it while we were in session, I'd tell them to pick a new cantrip because they wouldn't have Booming Blade anymore. If a DM told me that I had to move after taking the OA, then I'd move after taking the OA because the DM is adjudicating the rules and that's how it works in their game, but I'd hold them to the same expectation during their game. However, there is literally nothing that says that you have to move after taking any OA. Why would you want to stay after taking the punishment? I've answered that before in this thread, but trying to figure out what is going on is a fine reason to do so. The fact that the creature attacking with the OA just presented themself as an aggressive threat would be another.
Another aspect to consider is why would you not want the creature to stop? Most wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers will be among the squishier characters of the party and aren't likely to be using Booming Blade or to get a chance to use it on an OA since they'll likely be focused down if my creatures get on them. It's much more likely that a creature who can withstand much more damage would be equipped with both Booming Booming Blade and Warcaster while presenting a tougher target that a creature would want to leave. For example, my most recent game had an instance where our party engaged a dragon and my barbarian was wanting to keep the dragon's attention. However, the dragon was getting whittled down and noticed that the party was mostly behind a door attacking it. It moved to the door to use its breath attack which ended up knocking out a player and an NPC from full health and putting another within a solo attack of going down. Only the Warlock and myself were out of range. I happened to be raging and happened to miss my OA (and also don't have either Warcaster or Booming Blade), but if the circumstances were different, I would have much rather had the dragon stop and attack me than unleash that same attack on the party. Would you rather get your extra 1d8 to 4d8 damage and be on the verge of a TPK or have the enemy redirect at you and continue to get their attacks in while you continue to hold its attention?
And if you'd rather have the enemy leave because you can't take the hits, then the entire discussion is probably moot because that soft caster meat is tasty to my dragon looking to take your spoils and snack on your body so you won't get the chance to make the OA regardless or if you do, the movement will happen because there is something that has presented itself as a better target. And that target is likely to get munched in a bad way.
But if you're playing combat out in real time the person wouldn't know what happened in time. The player or monster already made the choice to move and thus grant an AoO. Otherwise the person wouldn't move to begin with and thus wouldn't invoke an AoO. As I said before combat is supposed to take place in a matter of seconds If you decide you're going to move 30ft away from someone you're going to be moving at a pretty hefty pace to get there in 1 or 2 seconds. Yes you the player have the time to sit there and think however, in the scope of it being only a few seconds of battle your character wouldn't know. Because if you eliminate the attack being a spell and just a regular hit whose gonna stop dead in their tracks and be like o man was there a spell used? Better just stand here and not move any further just encase.
In the case I argue isn't for one of those its for the Eldritch Knight. An EK with booming blade and war caster can help take down a lot of foes who try to get away from it. If something is moving away and thus invoking the AoO then it's already made the decision to move. Changing its mind in a split second because it got hit doesn't make any sense. Like urg u got me I guess I'll just stand here while you got a free hit. Taking the spell out of it what pc or creature is going to leave your reach knowing its going to get hit just to allow its self to get hit then stop. Why bother moving in the first place then unless you hope they miss with their attack. And since they landed the attack you decide well now I'm not moving cuz I'll take more damage. Which If your character doesn't know the spell they wouldn't know to stand still and not move so you're then meta gaming to avoid the extra damage.