Our DM introduced us to the "real" rules of light, darkness, etc and it sure makes for some interesting (and more difficult) game play.
In the past, we played (without really understanding or using the "true" rules) that Darkvision just gave you perfect 60' (or whatever distance) vision in darkness. We applied no other real penalties etc.
But once we started wondering why monsters only had stealth checks of 12-15, or how some character builds had perception checks so high nothing could hide from them we started to wonder. Some of the key points which changed everything were:
1) With darkvision, you can see in darkness as if it were DIM light.
2) An area of DIM light is LIGHTLY OBSCURED and you have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Now...all of a sudden, that +8 perception check, rolled at disadvantage, no longer automatically sees anything trying to hide. Having just survived a gelatinous cube (DC 15 at disadvantage to SPOT it!!) that I walked right in to made we want to start being a lot more careful.
Makes spotting a secret door almost impossible as well without lighting up!
So, in general, it makes using light a tougher decision to use - makes it a lot easier to perceive things, but makes you stand out like a beacon to your enemies.
Also makes the SKULKER feat a lot more valuable too. Have you all always played it correctly?
Wizard: Yes. I cast the Wish spell and I wish that everybody loves me!
DM: You transform into an irresistible, magnificent feast. It was so great, all who participated in devouring you tell of the joy they felt with tears in their eyes and all who hear the tale only feel sorrow that they weren't there to eat.
I sure do try to enforce it. It's one of those things that's easily forgotten in the heat of the moment-- None of my characters have Darkvision so you think it would be easy to remember "All" or "None"... But, alas. Still, I try to keep track of it with a little piece of paper I have clipped to my DM Screen--
I also rule that travel can affect your Perception as well, which is a homebrew rule based on my travel rules.
I have always had nuances with my Light/Vision rules, even to the point that in dim light a Human can still see, but the range is severely handicapped.
Outside on a full moon with stars in the sky, a human can see clearly about 20ft away, then things get fuzzy. A creature with darkvision can see clearly for the full 60 feel. Down in a cave far below the surface, a human is blind without light, the creature with darkvision only has 20ft without light. A torch is lit, you can see that pinpoint of light as far away as double it's radius.
I know none of this is particularly RAW, but it does add a little more to the game that the players have seemed to enjoy.
In the games I have played in, the amount of attention paid to light by the DM varies. I've occasionally mentioned the disadvantage on perception checks in dim light and it has been used in play from time to time, again dependent on the DM.
From a character perspective, dealing with light issues is one of the reasons why my dungeon delving rogue multiclassed into warlock for devils sight so that they could see perfectly in complete darkness to 120' and not suffer disadvantage on perception checks. Finding traps and secret doors is much easier this way without letting the entire dungeon know that you are coming.
It definitely is an aspect of the game that adds a lot of nuance, but which is often overlooked mechanically as it also requires the DM to describe the scenes more thoroughly (which can be difficult while improvising).
Another aspect that I feel is often overlooked in the same manner as Light and Vision, is the aspect of the different degrees of Cover. It would make encounters much more challenging and strategic if done correctly.
It definitely is an aspect of the game that adds a lot of nuance, but which is often overlooked mechanically as it also requires the DM to describe the scenes more thoroughly (which can be difficult while improvising).
Another aspect that I feel is often overlooked in the same manner as Light and Vision, is the aspect of the different degrees of Cover. It would make encounters much more challenging and strategic if done correctly.
This is particularly true for using ranged attacks into melee. Some DMs will give the +2 AC (or +5AC) for partial (or 3/4) cover to your target if you don't have a clear line of sight. Others don't worry about it. Since one of the features of sharpshooter is to bypass cover ... this makes the feat much more valuable in games where cover plays a role.
please elaborate with your travel rules. i plan on doing a campaign SAO style, and and having mazes, open area fights, and such. Do you have a chart for vision like in a dim/dark maze/labyrinth?
This thread is 4 years old, people you want to elaborate on may not still be around. Basically, wether creatures are above ground on a town road, forest, or underground in dungeon or maze labyrinth, the rules on Vision and Light are the same, to put it simple;
llumination is either bright light, dim light or darkness.
Area of bright light is not obscured, dim light is lightly obscured and darkness is heavily obscured.
Bright light is found outdoor during daylight or gloomy days and within areas of light sources from torches, lanterns, fires, and magical light.
Dim light, also called shadows, is found outdoors at twilight and dawn, on particularly brilliant full moon and at the boundary between sources of bright light and surrounding darkness.
Darkness is found outdoors on most moonlit nights, in unlit places like dungeon or subterranean as well as in magical darkness.
Normal vision can see in bright light and dim light, but cannot in darkness.
Darkvision can see in dim light as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light.
A lightly obscured area cause disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
An heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely, causing creature to effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
The difficulty I have is while your perception can vary depending on the sense used stealth is not links to sense.
Say it is dark as the party approach an ambush and the bad guy rolled 15 for stealth. A member of the party without darkvision is relying on sound (and maybe smell) to be aware of enemies. Darkness imposes no disadvantage on checks that do not rely on sight so if the PC has a passive of 16 he hears the bad guy.
His friend has darkvision so he would need a passive of 21 to see the bad guy but he can also try to hear him. So my understanding of RAW is darkvision only has an impact for detecting things that can only be detected by sight, but it is not clear what those are.
Being obscured only concern sight perception, yet Stealth vs Perception concern not only sight but other senses as well, that's why you can attempt to hide when not seen but even when unseen ex. invisible or heavily obscured there is no added benefit or guaranteed result, that's because you can still be detected by other senses.
Being obscured doesn't affect Passive Perception unless what's being perceived solely rely on sight., Stealth is not.
Our DM introduced us to the "real" rules of light, darkness, etc and it sure makes for some interesting (and more difficult) game play.
In the past, we played (without really understanding or using the "true" rules) that Darkvision just gave you perfect 60' (or whatever distance) vision in darkness. We applied no other real penalties etc.
But once we started wondering why monsters only had stealth checks of 12-15, or how some character builds had perception checks so high nothing could hide from them we started to wonder. Some of the key points which changed everything were:
1) With darkvision, you can see in darkness as if it were DIM light.
2) An area of DIM light is LIGHTLY OBSCURED and you have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Now...all of a sudden, that +8 perception check, rolled at disadvantage, no longer automatically sees anything trying to hide. Having just survived a gelatinous cube (DC 15 at disadvantage to SPOT it!!) that I walked right in to made we want to start being a lot more careful.
Makes spotting a secret door almost impossible as well without lighting up!
So, in general, it makes using light a tougher decision to use - makes it a lot easier to perceive things, but makes you stand out like a beacon to your enemies.
Also makes the SKULKER feat a lot more valuable too. Have you all always played it correctly?
In a campaign right now. Nope.
DM: Are you sure?
Wizard: Yes. I cast the Wish spell and I wish that everybody loves me!
DM: You transform into an irresistible, magnificent feast. It was so great, all who participated in devouring you tell of the joy they felt with tears in their eyes and all who hear the tale only feel sorrow that they weren't there to eat.
Me neither. I usually either give monsters a bonus to their stealth checks, because I thought it was weird that they have the same stealth modifier.
I stole my pfp from this person: https://mobile.twitter.com/xelart1/status/1177312449575432193
I sure do try to enforce it. It's one of those things that's easily forgotten in the heat of the moment-- None of my characters have Darkvision so you think it would be easy to remember "All" or "None"... But, alas. Still, I try to keep track of it with a little piece of paper I have clipped to my DM Screen--
I also rule that travel can affect your Perception as well, which is a homebrew rule based on my travel rules.
I have always had nuances with my Light/Vision rules, even to the point that in dim light a Human can still see, but the range is severely handicapped.
Outside on a full moon with stars in the sky, a human can see clearly about 20ft away, then things get fuzzy. A creature with darkvision can see clearly for the full 60 feel. Down in a cave far below the surface, a human is blind without light, the creature with darkvision only has 20ft without light. A torch is lit, you can see that pinpoint of light as far away as double it's radius.
I know none of this is particularly RAW, but it does add a little more to the game that the players have seemed to enjoy.
In the games I have played in, the amount of attention paid to light by the DM varies. I've occasionally mentioned the disadvantage on perception checks in dim light and it has been used in play from time to time, again dependent on the DM.
From a character perspective, dealing with light issues is one of the reasons why my dungeon delving rogue multiclassed into warlock for devils sight so that they could see perfectly in complete darkness to 120' and not suffer disadvantage on perception checks. Finding traps and secret doors is much easier this way without letting the entire dungeon know that you are coming.
It definitely is an aspect of the game that adds a lot of nuance, but which is often overlooked mechanically as it also requires the DM to describe the scenes more thoroughly (which can be difficult while improvising).
Another aspect that I feel is often overlooked in the same manner as Light and Vision, is the aspect of the different degrees of Cover. It would make encounters much more challenging and strategic if done correctly.
This is particularly true for using ranged attacks into melee. Some DMs will give the +2 AC (or +5AC) for partial (or 3/4) cover to your target if you don't have a clear line of sight. Others don't worry about it. Since one of the features of sharpshooter is to bypass cover ... this makes the feat much more valuable in games where cover plays a role.
please elaborate with your travel rules. i plan on doing a campaign SAO style, and and having mazes, open area fights, and such. Do you have a chart for vision like in a dim/dark maze/labyrinth?
This thread is 4 years old, people you want to elaborate on may not still be around. Basically, wether creatures are above ground on a town road, forest, or underground in dungeon or maze labyrinth, the rules on Vision and Light are the same, to put it simple;
llumination is either bright light, dim light or darkness.
Area of bright light is not obscured, dim light is lightly obscured and darkness is heavily obscured.
Bright light is found outdoor during daylight or gloomy days and within areas of light sources from torches, lanterns, fires, and magical light.
Dim light, also called shadows, is found outdoors at twilight and dawn, on particularly brilliant full moon and at the boundary between sources of bright light and surrounding darkness.
Darkness is found outdoors on most moonlit nights, in unlit places like dungeon or subterranean as well as in magical darkness.
Normal vision can see in bright light and dim light, but cannot in darkness.
Darkvision can see in dim light as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light.
A lightly obscured area cause disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
An heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely, causing creature to effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
The difficulty I have is while your perception can vary depending on the sense used stealth is not links to sense.
Say it is dark as the party approach an ambush and the bad guy rolled 15 for stealth. A member of the party without darkvision is relying on sound (and maybe smell) to be aware of enemies. Darkness imposes no disadvantage on checks that do not rely on sight so if the PC has a passive of 16 he hears the bad guy.
His friend has darkvision so he would need a passive of 21 to see the bad guy but he can also try to hear him. So my understanding of RAW is darkvision only has an impact for detecting things that can only be detected by sight, but it is not clear what those are.
Being obscured only concern sight perception, yet Stealth vs Perception concern not only sight but other senses as well, that's why you can attempt to hide when not seen but even when unseen ex. invisible or heavily obscured there is no added benefit or guaranteed result, that's because you can still be detected by other senses.
Being obscured doesn't affect Passive Perception unless what's being perceived solely rely on sight., Stealth is not.