I lack the time to watch the whole video right now. But I firmly support fudging dice without telling your players.
At first level a lot of monsters will one shot any d6 hit die player and many of them will potentially get the d8 player as well.
So you could just not chose any monsters that can one shot a PC or you could alter their damage dice to be lower.
Or you could go "I want to use this monster, and it sucks to be a PC who ends up unconscious before getting to even act which forces another pc to waste part of their 1st action to heal the other PC."
You could have everyone do like a d4+1 but then your barbarian who is sitting at a 12 hp is going to laugh.
I think the game works better if you let the monster do his d8 damage but keep that damage from one shotting a PC before they act.
The other time is when you realize you screwed up the encounter and everyone is going to die. Possibly because one player had to leave. There are other ways to handle this.
Of course I don't think you should fudge the dice once everyone has enough hp to survive one round. And never from stupid mistakes the players make.
This works in reverse as well. I"ve had encounters I"ve set up where it should have been deadly but based on tactics and some clever choices plus good rolls it made it way easier. In those cases I just pad the monsters stats some, heal em up a bit, things of that nature. When a level 5 party is beating the snot out of a dragon and taking minimal damage you need to do something to keep it tense.
This works in reverse as well. I"ve had encounters I"ve set up where it should have been deadly but based on tactics and some clever choices plus good rolls it made it way easier. In those cases I just pad the monsters stats some, heal em up a bit, things of that nature. When a level 5 party is beating the snot out of a dragon and taking minimal damage you need to do something to keep it tense.
If the battle becomes trivial because of a proper plan of attack, then you should let it be trivial bc of their tactics. I believe that should be the reward for proper planning on their part.
Now, if a supposedly deadly encounter becomes trivial because the PCs are rolling nothing but 19s and 20s and you are rolling nothing but 3s and 4s, that's when you need to fudge numbers.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Video too long, stopped watching a few minutes in.
Fudging is a tool that a DM can use. It is also a tool that has no tasks that it is the only tool that can achieve, although it does have negative potential effects that no other tool in the DM's arsenal can match.
For example, let's look at each of the times to fudge mentioned already in the thread:
When your die rolls could kill 1st level characters or take them out of the fight before they get to do anything: The game provides you the option to use non-rolled damage, and doing so cranks up the predictability of what will or won't take down the character - or you could just choose to not use high-damage monsters until a higher level. Basically, the DM is choosing to create the conditions under which they are then going to lie about what came out of those conditions, when the DM could just openly choose the conditions they actually wanted instead.
When you've unintentionally made a killer encounter: I know this will freak out a lot of DMs, but in my experience players actually prefer DMs that will openly admit and correct their mistakes over DMs that will use tools like fudging to hide them and pretend they never happened. So if it is clear the encounter is too much for your PCs and you've made the error of letting it feel like the players have no chance for their characters to retreat or for the game to continue on in an entertaining fashion after they lose this one encounter, then just say "I messed up" and fix it, even if that means borrowing from video-games to basically start from an earlier moment and proceed forward from there, but without the "glitch" that spoiled the fun. But really, the easiest solve here is to make losing an encounter only mean the end of the campaign when that will be satisfying to your players - as opposed to the "basically any single loss means campaign is over" approach that far too many DMs deliberately put themselves in and then use that as an excuse to fudge rolls.
When what is supposed to be "hard" ends up "easy": Suck it up. Seriously. Stop trying to force a specific difficulty for each encounter, and you and your players will likely all find the game to be even more fun because the variety of difficulty, and those wonderful moments where the players know they were in for a rough time but then a string of lucky rolls helped them stomp a mud-hole in their foes and walk it dry with style are good moments, not bad stuff to try and avoid. I mean, logically speaking people don't make their character an absolute bad-ass at combat because they want to always have a hard time winning a combat - they do it because they want to feel like a bad-ass in combat, which is delivered by enemies frequently seeming not up to the task of challenging them.
And if it is smart play on the part of the players that makes the encounter easier than you intended it, then you really shouldn't fudge the difficult back up. Doing that will only teach your players one thing; there is no reason, and no reward, for putting in any actual effort.
And to top all that off: If your players ever suspect that you fudge, they are very likely to start enjoying the game less because they'll doubt every outcome - they'll wonder if their failures are real or if the DM created them, they'll wonder if they really beat that challenge or if the DM gifted it to them, they'll even wonder why the DM didn't make a particular failure into a success or a success into a failure. Basically, they'll believe they are relying on a liar as a source of information and they will question every piece of information they are given as a result. Because that's the natural response, and very few folks will respond with the "I know they are lying, but its for my own good so I am okay with it" attitude that is necessary for suspicion of fudging to not diminish enjoyment of the game.
Plus, when you eventually get caught fudging, and you will because no one is as good of a liar as they think they are, the tool basically fails to even work at that point because it relies upon the players not realizing it is being used in order to work.
And my favorite, the catch 22 of fudging; You can't actually be sure the exact times that you fudge are the times the players would prefer it unless you ask them, but if you ask them you probably won't be able to fudge. So you have to go on hiding it from the players as best you can, and hoping your arrogant assumption that you actually do know what is best for your players without any input from them is correct.
When I first started DMing a group, I was having them run medium-level characters so that things wouldn't be as critical if I made mistakes; the characters had enough loot and magic to compensate if I made things over-powered or whatnot, and I generally didn't have to fudge dice much.
When it came to 4e, I had the gang start at 1st level and they encounter a band of Kobolds, which I really didn't spend enough time reading up on before the encounter. I thought "oh, Kobolds, this'll warm things up a bit and give them some XP." Ended up killing all but one of the group and wasted half a game session rolling up the group of mercenaries that the sole survivor went and hired to complete the mission. From that point on, the sound of dice rolling behind my screen was largely for audio special effects and ambiance until they cleared 3rd level and had enough punch to ride out the waves of dice luck.
Personally, I say fudging dice to keep things dramatic saves you the time lost re-rolling characters rather than playing. But definitely spend some time working on your poker face.
I'd rather a dm fudge the dice roll then tell me we are going to reset things because he messed up and our awesome plan we spent thirty+ minutes coming up with was pointless and now another 30+ min. Coming up with another one when he could have spent two seconds and say a monster misses when he should have hit.
( easily done when the dice by itself doesn't hit and needs an attack bonus + prof bonus to hit)
I have a pretty open dialogue with my players that I DM for and I'll tell them if they pulled off a good plan and made something easier than it should have been. I also let them know that from time to time I"m not going to do things RAW or per the dice rolls too, but rather do what helps the story progress and makes sense for the situation. Having conversations with your players so they know what your style or plan is for the campaign can allow you to be flexible when needed to the benefit of the players enjoyment of the experience. In the case of the dragon afterwards I told them I made him tougher once I saw how easily they were handling it, they appreciated it too. It made the encounter more challenging, fun, and lasted longer allowing them to try out different things they wouldn't have otherwise.
That doesn't mean that this sort of thing happens regularly, but rather from time to time to enhance the game play. I've not had any complaints and quite the contrary most of my players appreciate it.
2) I'd rather a dm fudge the dice roll then tell me we are going to reset things because he messed up and our awesome plan we spent thirty+ minutes coming up with was pointless and now another 30+ min. Coming up with another one when he could have spent two seconds and say a monster misses when he should have hit.
( easily done when the dice by itself doesn't hit and needs an attack bonus + prof bonus to hit)
1) My group disagrees. Have you tried it and found it lacking?
2) You have created a false dichotomy. There isn't just fudging a dice roll and handling a reset extremely unfairly on the table as possible outcomes, there is also telling you we are going to reset things because the DM messed up and your awesome plan you spent thirty+ minutes coming up with still applies and gives you all the benefits it should. Which, sure, maybe takes a little more effort than saying a hit is actually a miss would... but not so much more effort as to actually be worth mentioning; It can literally be so simple as "Guys, I messed up. Let's back up to right when you launched your cool plan, but now the opposition is only 5 orcs, not the 8 I originally put. Cool?" (and then, because your DM isn't an antagonistic jerk, you could even express reasons why you didn't think that reset was cool and make suggestions as to how it could be cool that get listened to and genuinely considered).
I do fudge dice from time to time, but it is pretty rare and only in situations where the dice are the problem and not the player's choices and actions.
I remember a session once where the party was in a battle that should have been a cake walk. There were four giant rats and five players. In the first round of combat, none of the players hit a single target, while I rolled 4 20's in a row. The second round of combat only 1 of the five players hit and they had advantage thanks to Faerie Fire, then rolled minimum damage which was just short of killing the target. The rats hit four more time, but Instead of allowing the dice to wipe the party, I fudged a little. That game went on to last another 8 months and was a blast to play.
Was I wrong? My players did not thinks so. Was that arrogant and antagonistic to not let a few bad die rolls end the player's fun? If so, I can live with that.
I don't think that it should be the go to tool to be used, but sometimes it is better than letting the party die and ending the game.
Personally I prefer fudging the badguy behaviors more than dice rolls.
Maybe if they are destroying the players they stop to demand their surrender for a turn.
I have also had a badguy in a pitched battle offer terms for the badguy to leave. (His reasoning was that if the battle continued, the badguy leader would have a good chance of dying, but so would at least one of the players, so when I offered it to the players I honestly didn't know how they would respond, surprisingly they were willing to let the badguys go and forego a bit of loot for their safe continuation of the journey.)
Legendary creatures can forego using their legendary actions.
Creatures can use their weaker attacks. Or spellcasters can use cantrips.
I personally prefer these softer methods and allowing all rolls in the open.
Personally I prefer fudging the badguy behaviors more than dice rolls.
Maybe if they are destroying the players they stop to demand their surrender for a turn.
I have also had a badguy in a pitched battle offer terms for the badguy to leave. (His reasoning was that if the battle continued, the badguy leader would have a good chance of dying, but so would at least one of the players, so when I offered it to the players I honestly didn't know how they would respond, surprisingly they were willing to let the badguys go and forego a bit of loot for their safe continuation of the journey.)
Legendary creatures can forego using their legendary actions.
Creatures can use their weaker attacks. Or spellcasters can use cantrips.
I personally prefer these softer methods and allowing all rolls in the open.
They can, but they are often way more blatant than saying the creature misses when they don't. You could forego legendary actions, but that automatically signals that you are letting the PCs win, which I think is way less fun. This can also cause an issue where the PCs catch on and decide to not use resources which makes the problem worse rather than fixing anything.
Weaker attacks really makes it clear that the bad guy has become stupid all of a sudden, which once again I think is worse than saying a monster misses when they don't.
Some monsters can take the PCs as prisoners. But if every monster keeps taking the PCs as prisoners it lessens the game.
I understand, fundamentally, that D&D is not just a game. It is potentially a very deep and continuing social experience. I am playing with people I love and hope to have long friendships with. I have decided that I don't want to lie to them. I do not want to take the rules that we have decided to play under, and then cheat. I don't want to be a lying cheat. I also want a better, growing relationship with people I am very invested in. I am not comparing my situation to yours, but just saying what I want in life. I also promise you that people know when you fudge.
ArronofBarbaria, you have said some things here better than I ever have.
I can and have fudged dice rolls as a DM in the past in favor of dramatic moments. Just last night I had a moment where it would have been cooler if my giant monster just up and swallowed a player whole in order to show how much of a threat it really was when the party wasn't quite taking the danger seriously enough. So I rolled some dice, declared a crit had been rolled, and gobbled up one of the fighters who was being a bit of a glory hound that night. The end result was a shocked group of players who then had to really focus on the task at hand while the swallowed player got to fight and struggle inside the beast, eventually cutting his way out and feeling like he accomplished something without really taking away from the experience of the other players. Also I didn't have to worry about wasting time rolling to hit his somewhat min-maxed AC because he was just taking acid damage each turn. The rest of the party had a blast, he had fun, and I unbeknownst to him, I had faked a crit and had also planned on coughing him up before he died anyway if he didn't manage to find his own way through the problem.
Win win win all around.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I fudge rolls all the time. Every encounter I plan falls within a range. How deadly is it supposed to be? Is this a fight for their lives and because I balanced the fight poorly, the PCs are crushing? I fudge rolls to make it harder. Is this supposed to be an easy little scrap but I misjudged how it would go? I make it easier.
I only ever fudge rolls to compensate for my mistakes. Never to punish/reward players for their choices. But I'm not a game designer, and 5e has a garbage encounter building system. So until I have a MUCH better "eyeball" judgement of encounter balance, I will fudge rolls to compensate for my own mistakes.
I only ever fudge rolls to compensate for my mistakes. Never to punish/reward players for their choices. But I'm not a game designer, and 5e has a garbage encounter building system. So until I have a MUCH better "eyeball" judgement of encounter balance, I will fudge rolls to compensate for my own mistakes.
Well, if you don't want to get better at not making mistakes, and your players don't mind you fudging, then keep it up. Just please don't think you are fooling anyone. Best wishes.
This thread reminds me of a quote "Your fun is wrong!"
I have never understood the "if you don't play the way I play then you are doing it wrong" mentality of some gamers.
I agree with this entirely!
Personally, I have no issue with fudging rolls when I run my games and I've never had a complaint at the end of the session because of it. My players always leave saying they had a great time and end up having stories about their epic boss kill for weeks to come....at least until their next epic kill.
Sometimes the dice just are not rolling right to keep the suspense going, other times they make a supposedly trivial fight more deadly than the Tarrasque. I will absolutely fudge my rolls so that my players will have a good time at the end of the day. Just like another person here mentioned, I had my party fighting rats for their first encounter and not one of them could hit, though the rats were crit-ing and hitting every round. If I didn't fudge they would have wiped without a question, and I know my players....that kind of loss would have driven them from the game. On the opposite end of the spectrum I made a series of hard-to-deadly battles in a row to really test my group when they got stronger and my rolls became trash and they were flawlessly killing everything so I periodically added health and fudged the occasional roll to bring the intended risk to the fight.
In the end, as a GM it's up to you to do what you need to do so that your players have a good time with the game. If they haven't had fun at the end of the game, you probably did something wrong in running the game. Just do what you need to do so that the game is fun for everyone. ^_^
I have posted a response video in regards to fudging. I take it pretty seriously.
Here is the video
Thanks
JoMo
I lack the time to watch the whole video right now. But I firmly support fudging dice without telling your players.
At first level a lot of monsters will one shot any d6 hit die player and many of them will potentially get the d8 player as well.
So you could just not chose any monsters that can one shot a PC or you could alter their damage dice to be lower.
Or you could go "I want to use this monster, and it sucks to be a PC who ends up unconscious before getting to even act which forces another pc to waste part of their 1st action to heal the other PC."
You could have everyone do like a d4+1 but then your barbarian who is sitting at a 12 hp is going to laugh.
I think the game works better if you let the monster do his d8 damage but keep that damage from one shotting a PC before they act.
The other time is when you realize you screwed up the encounter and everyone is going to die. Possibly because one player had to leave. There are other ways to handle this.
Of course I don't think you should fudge the dice once everyone has enough hp to survive one round. And never from stupid mistakes the players make.
This works in reverse as well. I"ve had encounters I"ve set up where it should have been deadly but based on tactics and some clever choices plus good rolls it made it way easier. In those cases I just pad the monsters stats some, heal em up a bit, things of that nature. When a level 5 party is beating the snot out of a dragon and taking minimal damage you need to do something to keep it tense.
I am more against fudging the dice when the players are doing well. If they get lucky with dice rolls let them be lucky.
I would probabky have the dragon try to escape.
Solo monsters have it rough in D&D.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Video too long, stopped watching a few minutes in.
Fudging is a tool that a DM can use. It is also a tool that has no tasks that it is the only tool that can achieve, although it does have negative potential effects that no other tool in the DM's arsenal can match.
For example, let's look at each of the times to fudge mentioned already in the thread:
When your die rolls could kill 1st level characters or take them out of the fight before they get to do anything: The game provides you the option to use non-rolled damage, and doing so cranks up the predictability of what will or won't take down the character - or you could just choose to not use high-damage monsters until a higher level. Basically, the DM is choosing to create the conditions under which they are then going to lie about what came out of those conditions, when the DM could just openly choose the conditions they actually wanted instead.
When you've unintentionally made a killer encounter: I know this will freak out a lot of DMs, but in my experience players actually prefer DMs that will openly admit and correct their mistakes over DMs that will use tools like fudging to hide them and pretend they never happened. So if it is clear the encounter is too much for your PCs and you've made the error of letting it feel like the players have no chance for their characters to retreat or for the game to continue on in an entertaining fashion after they lose this one encounter, then just say "I messed up" and fix it, even if that means borrowing from video-games to basically start from an earlier moment and proceed forward from there, but without the "glitch" that spoiled the fun. But really, the easiest solve here is to make losing an encounter only mean the end of the campaign when that will be satisfying to your players - as opposed to the "basically any single loss means campaign is over" approach that far too many DMs deliberately put themselves in and then use that as an excuse to fudge rolls.
When what is supposed to be "hard" ends up "easy": Suck it up. Seriously. Stop trying to force a specific difficulty for each encounter, and you and your players will likely all find the game to be even more fun because the variety of difficulty, and those wonderful moments where the players know they were in for a rough time but then a string of lucky rolls helped them stomp a mud-hole in their foes and walk it dry with style are good moments, not bad stuff to try and avoid. I mean, logically speaking people don't make their character an absolute bad-ass at combat because they want to always have a hard time winning a combat - they do it because they want to feel like a bad-ass in combat, which is delivered by enemies frequently seeming not up to the task of challenging them.
And if it is smart play on the part of the players that makes the encounter easier than you intended it, then you really shouldn't fudge the difficult back up. Doing that will only teach your players one thing; there is no reason, and no reward, for putting in any actual effort.
And to top all that off: If your players ever suspect that you fudge, they are very likely to start enjoying the game less because they'll doubt every outcome - they'll wonder if their failures are real or if the DM created them, they'll wonder if they really beat that challenge or if the DM gifted it to them, they'll even wonder why the DM didn't make a particular failure into a success or a success into a failure. Basically, they'll believe they are relying on a liar as a source of information and they will question every piece of information they are given as a result. Because that's the natural response, and very few folks will respond with the "I know they are lying, but its for my own good so I am okay with it" attitude that is necessary for suspicion of fudging to not diminish enjoyment of the game.
Plus, when you eventually get caught fudging, and you will because no one is as good of a liar as they think they are, the tool basically fails to even work at that point because it relies upon the players not realizing it is being used in order to work.
And my favorite, the catch 22 of fudging; You can't actually be sure the exact times that you fudge are the times the players would prefer it unless you ask them, but if you ask them you probably won't be able to fudge. So you have to go on hiding it from the players as best you can, and hoping your arrogant assumption that you actually do know what is best for your players without any input from them is correct.
When I first started DMing a group, I was having them run medium-level characters so that things wouldn't be as critical if I made mistakes; the characters had enough loot and magic to compensate if I made things over-powered or whatnot, and I generally didn't have to fudge dice much.
When it came to 4e, I had the gang start at 1st level and they encounter a band of Kobolds, which I really didn't spend enough time reading up on before the encounter. I thought "oh, Kobolds, this'll warm things up a bit and give them some XP." Ended up killing all but one of the group and wasted half a game session rolling up the group of mercenaries that the sole survivor went and hired to complete the mission. From that point on, the sound of dice rolling behind my screen was largely for audio special effects and ambiance until they cleared 3rd level and had enough punch to ride out the waves of dice luck.
Personally, I say fudging dice to keep things dramatic saves you the time lost re-rolling characters rather than playing. But definitely spend some time working on your poker face.
Non-rolled damage makes encounters kinda blah.
I'd rather a dm fudge the dice roll then tell me we are going to reset things because he messed up and our awesome plan we spent thirty+ minutes coming up with was pointless and now another 30+ min. Coming up with another one when he could have spent two seconds and say a monster misses when he should have hit.
( easily done when the dice by itself doesn't hit and needs an attack bonus + prof bonus to hit)
I have a pretty open dialogue with my players that I DM for and I'll tell them if they pulled off a good plan and made something easier than it should have been. I also let them know that from time to time I"m not going to do things RAW or per the dice rolls too, but rather do what helps the story progress and makes sense for the situation. Having conversations with your players so they know what your style or plan is for the campaign can allow you to be flexible when needed to the benefit of the players enjoyment of the experience. In the case of the dragon afterwards I told them I made him tougher once I saw how easily they were handling it, they appreciated it too. It made the encounter more challenging, fun, and lasted longer allowing them to try out different things they wouldn't have otherwise.
That doesn't mean that this sort of thing happens regularly, but rather from time to time to enhance the game play. I've not had any complaints and quite the contrary most of my players appreciate it.
I do fudge dice from time to time, but it is pretty rare and only in situations where the dice are the problem and not the player's choices and actions.
I remember a session once where the party was in a battle that should have been a cake walk. There were four giant rats and five players. In the first round of combat, none of the players hit a single target, while I rolled 4 20's in a row. The second round of combat only 1 of the five players hit and they had advantage thanks to Faerie Fire, then rolled minimum damage which was just short of killing the target. The rats hit four more time, but Instead of allowing the dice to wipe the party, I fudged a little. That game went on to last another 8 months and was a blast to play.
Was I wrong? My players did not thinks so. Was that arrogant and antagonistic to not let a few bad die rolls end the player's fun? If so, I can live with that.
I don't think that it should be the go to tool to be used, but sometimes it is better than letting the party die and ending the game.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Personally I prefer fudging the badguy behaviors more than dice rolls.
Maybe if they are destroying the players they stop to demand their surrender for a turn.
I have also had a badguy in a pitched battle offer terms for the badguy to leave. (His reasoning was that if the battle continued, the badguy leader would have a good chance of dying, but so would at least one of the players, so when I offered it to the players I honestly didn't know how they would respond, surprisingly they were willing to let the badguys go and forego a bit of loot for their safe continuation of the journey.)
Legendary creatures can forego using their legendary actions.
Creatures can use their weaker attacks. Or spellcasters can use cantrips.
I personally prefer these softer methods and allowing all rolls in the open.
I understand, fundamentally, that D&D is not just a game. It is potentially a very deep and continuing social experience. I am playing with people I love and hope to have long friendships with. I have decided that I don't want to lie to them. I do not want to take the rules that we have decided to play under, and then cheat. I don't want to be a lying cheat. I also want a better, growing relationship with people I am very invested in. I am not comparing my situation to yours, but just saying what I want in life. I also promise you that people know when you fudge.
ArronofBarbaria, you have said some things here better than I ever have.
I can and have fudged dice rolls as a DM in the past in favor of dramatic moments. Just last night I had a moment where it would have been cooler if my giant monster just up and swallowed a player whole in order to show how much of a threat it really was when the party wasn't quite taking the danger seriously enough. So I rolled some dice, declared a crit had been rolled, and gobbled up one of the fighters who was being a bit of a glory hound that night. The end result was a shocked group of players who then had to really focus on the task at hand while the swallowed player got to fight and struggle inside the beast, eventually cutting his way out and feeling like he accomplished something without really taking away from the experience of the other players. Also I didn't have to worry about wasting time rolling to hit his somewhat min-maxed AC because he was just taking acid damage each turn. The rest of the party had a blast, he had fun, and I unbeknownst to him, I had faked a crit and had also planned on coughing him up before he died anyway if he didn't manage to find his own way through the problem.
Win win win all around.
I fudge rolls all the time. Every encounter I plan falls within a range. How deadly is it supposed to be? Is this a fight for their lives and because I balanced the fight poorly, the PCs are crushing? I fudge rolls to make it harder. Is this supposed to be an easy little scrap but I misjudged how it would go? I make it easier.
I only ever fudge rolls to compensate for my mistakes. Never to punish/reward players for their choices. But I'm not a game designer, and 5e has a garbage encounter building system. So until I have a MUCH better "eyeball" judgement of encounter balance, I will fudge rolls to compensate for my own mistakes.
This thread reminds me of a quote "Your fun is wrong!"
I have never understood the "if you don't play the way I play then you are doing it wrong" mentality of some gamers.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
More commentary on the original fudging video. The post is here:
Are you strong enough?