I agree that contentious RAW and RAI discussions can be very draining.
I like to split the difference on points like this and allow an attack but at disadvantage, or even allow the attack but give the misty step caster invulnerability or resistance, given their circumstances.
The point is; there are many ways to rule these cases so that everyone is happy without getting vastly different results from RAW. I think a mage slayer would be thrilled to miss a cowardly mage with their swing.
In some views, the spell is not "cast" until it is finished. When misty step finishes your target is no longer there and so you do not get an attack using your reaction from mage slayer since you no longer have a valid target
That's a pretty obtuse view then. There's a difference between "casting time" and "duration". It's like trying to tell the wizard that his Tiny Hut (8hr duration) hasn't been cast yet, even though they have been in it safely for 5 hours and completed a short rest. To each there own though I suppose. But I happen to like my players.
From the sage advice compendium and DMG
"when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252)."
The trigger for mage slayer is
"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."
The trigger is "casts a spell". A spell is not cast until it is complete. Leomund's Tiny hut, to use your example, is not complete until 10 rounds (1 minute) have been spent casting the spell. The spell is not cast after 5 rounds. The character may be in the "process of casting a spell". However, a spell is not actually cast until it has been completed. In addition, based on the rules mentioned in the DMG and mentioned in the Sage Advice compendium (though in reference to a different feat), unless mentioned otherwise, the trigger finished before the reaction can be taken.
In the case of Misty Step, as soon as the spell completes, the caster is no longer there so although the character with mage slayer would normally be able to make a melee weapon attack, they can not do so since the creature is no longer within range.
In some views, the spell is not "cast" until it is finished. When misty step finishes your target is no longer there and so you do not get an attack using your reaction from mage slayer since you no longer have a valid target
That's a pretty obtuse view then. There's a difference between "casting time" and "duration". It's like trying to tell the wizard that his Tiny Hut (8hr duration) hasn't been cast yet, even though they have been in it safely for 5 hours and completed a short rest. To each there own though I suppose. But I happen to like my players.
From the sage advice compendium and DMG
"when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252)."
The trigger for mage slayer is
"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."
The trigger is "casts a spell". A spell is not cast until it is complete. Leomund's Tiny hut, to use your example, is not complete until 10 rounds (1 minute) have been spent casting the spell. The spell is not cast after 5 rounds. The character may be in the "process of casting a spell". However, a spell is not actually cast until it has been completed. In addition, based on the rules mentioned in the DMG and mentioned in the Sage Advice compendium (though in reference to a different feat), unless mentioned otherwise, the trigger finished before the reaction can be taken.
In the case of Misty Step, as soon as the spell completes, the caster is no longer there so although the character with mage slayer would normally be able to make a melee weapon attack, they can not do so since the creature is no longer within range.
As I said, not trying to argue you... I just play differently. I also don't acknowledge twitter as an official source of rules... I'd rather use my own judgement and rule in favor of my players enjoyment. When the Sage Advice stuff is published in an official book, then I'll give it some thought.
For the record, I agree with you on the misty step thing though. I just don't think that a spell has not been cast until it finishes. Example: I would not prevent a Mage Slayer from using his ability on a Wizard casting Suggestion on him while in melee.
Take a look at the "Ready" action in the PHB and you'll see where my stance comes from. "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."
It clearly states that the spell has been cast. It hasn't completed yet because the energy is still being held... but it has been cast... not that it is merely in the process of being cast. That's pretty clear to me, and makes sense... especially when I think about the concentration mechanic. This is where I get my stance that a spell does not have to be completed to have been "cast".
But hey... I also don't allow a Bard to roll a 20 to seduce a log in my game either! I'm in the minority. :)
"Rules and Game Mechanics" doesn't care how you houserule things.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Just curious, is that your rule, or are there formal, posted guidelines for posting here?
I am not being sassy, just seems like people shut down interesting conversations.
It's a shame, In my opinion.
He didn't shut it down... he can't. The conversation between David42 and I is over. I understood his point of view, and I assume he understands mine. And like adults we moved on. Some people need to be edgy though...
For the record, his post was aimed at me - I got the alert that he replied to me. I just ignored it. I ain't got time for that crap.
I mean if you want to get word lawyer-y, "casts" can be used in the present tense too. The only definitive wording that would indicate that it would take place after the spell had been cast would be. "When a creature has cast a spell." Casts is also present tense so you could argue that the attack takes place simultaneously. Also the feat is for attacking casters...So...
For additional discussion - it doesn’t really matter if the caster is allowed to use Misty Step and Mage Slayer doesn’t work on it. Because the only thing the Wizard can do after casting Misty Step is a cantrip, and you’ve already succeeded at a) sapping a 2nd level spell slot and b) stopping them from using anything but a cantrip that turn. Sounds like a win!
And the best they can do is hope you don’t dash up beside them again and do the same again.
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I agree that contentious RAW and RAI discussions can be very draining.
I like to split the difference on points like this and allow an attack but at disadvantage, or even allow the attack but give the misty step caster invulnerability or resistance, given their circumstances.
The point is; there are many ways to rule these cases so that everyone is happy without getting vastly different results from RAW. I think a mage slayer would be thrilled to miss a cowardly mage with their swing.
essentially RAF
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
From the sage advice compendium and DMG
"when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252)."
The trigger for mage slayer is
"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."
The trigger is "casts a spell". A spell is not cast until it is complete. Leomund's Tiny hut, to use your example, is not complete until 10 rounds (1 minute) have been spent casting the spell. The spell is not cast after 5 rounds. The character may be in the "process of casting a spell". However, a spell is not actually cast until it has been completed. In addition, based on the rules mentioned in the DMG and mentioned in the Sage Advice compendium (though in reference to a different feat), unless mentioned otherwise, the trigger finished before the reaction can be taken.
In the case of Misty Step, as soon as the spell completes, the caster is no longer there so although the character with mage slayer would normally be able to make a melee weapon attack, they can not do so since the creature is no longer within range.
As I said, not trying to argue you... I just play differently.
I also don't acknowledge twitter as an official source of rules... I'd rather use my own judgement and rule in favor of my players enjoyment.
When the Sage Advice stuff is published in an official book, then I'll give it some thought.
For the record, I agree with you on the misty step thing though.
I just don't think that a spell has not been cast until it finishes.
Example: I would not prevent a Mage Slayer from using his ability on a Wizard casting Suggestion on him while in melee.
Take a look at the "Ready" action in the PHB and you'll see where my stance comes from.
"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."
It clearly states that the spell has been cast. It hasn't completed yet because the energy is still being held... but it has been cast... not that it is merely in the process of being cast. That's pretty clear to me, and makes sense... especially when I think about the concentration mechanic.
This is where I get my stance that a spell does not have to be completed to have been "cast".
But hey... I also don't allow a Bard to roll a 20 to seduce a log in my game either! I'm in the minority. :)
...cryptographic randomness!
"Rules and Game Mechanics" doesn't care how you houserule things.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Just curious, is that your rule, or are there formal, posted guidelines for posting here?
I am not being sassy, just seems like people shut down interesting conversations.
It's a shame, In my opinion.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
He didn't shut it down... he can't. The conversation between David42 and I is over.
I understood his point of view, and I assume he understands mine. And like adults we moved on.
Some people need to be edgy though...
For the record, his post was aimed at me - I got the alert that he replied to me. I just ignored it. I ain't got time for that crap.
...cryptographic randomness!
At any rate...
why in the last 6 days is a thread being be revived from 9+ months ago. For a rule that’s pretty clear cut.
Blank
Because the internet always rolls up a necromancer!
...cryptographic randomness!
I mean if you want to get word lawyer-y, "casts" can be used in the present tense too. The only definitive wording that would indicate that it would take place after the spell had been cast would be. "When a creature has cast a spell." Casts is also present tense so you could argue that the attack takes place simultaneously. Also the feat is for attacking casters...So...
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
For additional discussion - it doesn’t really matter if the caster is allowed to use Misty Step and Mage Slayer doesn’t work on it. Because the only thing the Wizard can do after casting Misty Step is a cantrip, and you’ve already succeeded at a) sapping a 2nd level spell slot and b) stopping them from using anything but a cantrip that turn. Sounds like a win!
And the best they can do is hope you don’t dash up beside them again and do the same again.