If an NPC used the spell Misty Step to get away from the Player with the Mage Slayer feat (assuming they are within Melee distance), would the player still get an opportunity attack against the creature before it vanished? would this instantly force it make a concentration check potentially causing it to loose the spell? what if the player also had the Sentinel feat would that matter?
yes however it not an OA anymore just a reaction that use for an attack. (this important since if you have sentinel it doesnt trigger the 0 movement effect)
Opportunity Attacks You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
mage slayer When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.
Sentinel When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Misty step an instant non concentration spell so there no concentration check on that.
If you only have your reaction availeble, yeah i think that the only option. silence can also disable both spells since they use verbal, aslong target inside the bubble but that cost an action.
Depending on how you interpret the trigger for the mage slayer effect ...
"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."
In some views, the spell is not "cast" until it is finished. When misty step finishes your target is no longer there and so you do not get an attack using your reaction from mage slayer since you no longer have a valid target.
There are no rules in D&D 5e for interrupting a spell while it is being cast EXCEPT for counterspell. Counterspell specifically says "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell." There is no concentration required for any spell before a spell is cast and the rules do not give any indication of how long a spell takes to cast except in terms of the action economy 1 action or 1 bonus action or a reaction.
I'm going to go with the use of a couple words in the Misty Step's description, specifically the Duration and Casting Time.
In the case of Misty Step we look first and see that it's Casting Time is 1 Bonus Action. This means it is quick, as such, a Bonus Action, to my understanding, is faster than a standard Attack action. (See David42's post below for a good explanation).
Also it's Duration is Instantaneous, which means it happens the moment the spell is cast, there is no lingering or lasting effect which takes a period of time to fully complete the spell.
I would rule that, while Mage Slayer would grant a Reaction to Attack the caster, there would be nothing to strike as they're already a "silvery mist".
edit: adjusted the time an action/bonus action takes.
I'm going to go with the use of a couple words in the Misty Step's description, specifically the Duration and Casting Time.
In the case of Misty Step we look first and see that it's Casting Time is 1 Bonus Action. This means it is quick, unlike most Actions which are considered to take 6 seconds, a Bonus Action, to my understanding, is faster than that.
Also it's Duration is Instantaneous, which means it happens the moment the spell is cast, there is no lingering or lasting effect which takes a period of time to fully complete the spell.
I would rule that, while Mage Slayer would grant a Reaction to Attack the caster, there would be nothing to strike as they're already a "silvery mist".
I agree :) except with the part about an action taking 6 seconds. The entire turn takes six seconds. In that time, a character can take an action, a bonus action, a reaction (under suitable triggers ... eg a held attack action that triggers on their movement and they respond by casting shield) and move up to their full movement. In addition, a fighter may have the ability to action surge allowing a complete additional action on a turn in addition to all of the above. Considering that a turn takes 6 seconds, it isn't possible for an action to also take six seconds and permit all of the other actions and movement to also be taken.
So, my take is that actions, bonus actions and reactions will typically take significantly less than six seconds but the length of time required is not specifically defined within the rules.
misty step has a verbal component. This means the casting is not instantaneous, and a reaction can conceivably happen "during" the casting. The attack from mage slayer will happen, then the misty step spell will take affect. Exception being if the mage slayer attack reduces the NPC to 0 hp.
misty step has a verbal component. This means the casting is not instantaneous, and a reaction can conceivably happen "during" the casting. The attack from mage slayer will happen, then the misty step spell will take affect. Exception being if the mage slayer attack reduces the NPC to 0 hp.
If an NPC used the spell Misty Step to get away from the Player with the Mage Slayer feat (assuming they are within Melee distance), would the player still get an opportunity attack against the creature before it vanished? would this instantly force it make a concentration check potentially causing it to loose the spell? what if the player also had the Sentinel feat would that matter?
Therefore, the answer to the original question per Crawford is, "The caster is gone, since the spell is intended to resolve before the Mage Slayer attack (DMG, 252)." (see the sage advice link above).
I disagree with that ruling because reactions with melee attacks resolve when an opponent starts to move away and can interrupt retreating by knocking an opponent unconscious, so starting to cast Misty Step should trigger the Mage Slayer feat.
In my experience it’s not that useful a feat anyway. How often do PC’s get into melee with spellcasters?
It's quite useful but, as with any feat or ability, there will be options to circumvent what they can do. It just so happens that Misty Step vs Mage Slayer is going in favor of the caster. Can't win them all :)
So realistically the Mage Slayer Feet isnt super useful.
It depends on how you want to play it. If you are playing a mage killer, you will want to close as often as possible, particularly if you're predominately a melee character. In melee, your superior AC and attack skills give you an advantage over many spellcasters. Their attack roll spells are at disadvantage, which means that if you have a 16 AC and they have a +5 to hit, they would normally have a 40% chance to hit (8/20, if your DM rules they need a 17 or higher to hit) or a 45% chance to hit (9/20, if they need the 16 or higher to hit). At disadvantage, those numbers drop to 16% (64/400) or 20.25% (81/400). That's just per the rules of magic (PHB, 205). This means that, barring a melee spell such as booming blade or shocking grasp, a spellcaster will either want to cast spells that have a saving throw or try to attack you (which typically means either poor bonus to hit, inferior damage die, or both--all of which are a bonus to you). With mage slayer, if they cast the spell at disadvantage or with the melee spell attack, then you get your "When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature" portion of mage slayer. More damage for a less than 50% chance to hit is a pretty good tradeoff, particularly if they aren't using spells that have a nasty side effect like the melee spell class typically has. If they are concentrating on a spell that is buffing one of their allies or debuffing one of your allies, the part of mage slayer, "When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration" kicks in meaning that they'll probably see about a 20 percentage point drop in their ability to make their save. If they choose to cast a saving throw spell instead, for a DC 12 or DC 13 (either ruling being interpreted as must roll 13 or greater), "You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you" moving your chance to save from 40% (8/20) to 64% (256/400).
Of course, this is all dependent on being able to stick to the caster, which means that classes, races, and feats that increase movement (outright such as wood elf, centaur, rogue's cunning action, barbarian's fast movement, or the mobile feat or indirectly through the charger feat; or through abilities with limits such as Tabaxi with Feline Agility, Githyanki with the 5th level misty step from Githyanki Psionics, EK using action surge or misty step) or through features or feats that limit movement (such as the Grappler feat, hold person, Battlemaster's Trip Attack, or Monk's Stunning Strike). If that doesn't sound like the type of character you want to play, then it's probably not that interesting for you. Additionally, you have to weigh the opportunity cost of taking it versus taking something else. But it has plenty of utility for what it wants to accomplish.
I disagree with that ruling because reactions with melee attacks resolve when an opponent starts to move away and can interrupt retreating by knocking an opponent unconscious, so starting to cast Misty Step should trigger the Mage Slayer feat.
Opportunity attacks specifically call out that they happen before the enemy leaves your reach. Reactions happen after their trigger by default (DMG chapter 8, Adjudicating Reaction Timing). The trigger for Mage Slayer isn't "when a creature starts casting a spell" or "when a creature is casting a spell" (e.g. counterspell), it's "when a creature casts a spell." They have to cast the spell before you can take the reaction, and that hasn't happened until the spell goes off.
See also "Does the attack granted by the third benefit of the Sentinel feat take place before or after the triggering attack?" in Sage Advice Compendium:
The bonus attack takes place after the triggering attack. Here’s why: the feat doesn’t specify the bonus attack’s timing, and when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252). In contrast, an opportunity attack specifically takes place before its trigger finishes—that is, right before the target creature leaves your reach (PH, 195).
Mage Slayer is still a solid feat. Imposing disadvantage on concentration saves is amazing, and it doesn't even matter how you're dealing the damage - melee attacks, ranged attacks, a saving throw spell, a dragonborn's breath weapon, whatever.
Advantage on saving throws against spells cast within 5 feet of you is also an amazing benefit, since sometimes spellcasters reach for saving throw spells when they can't use their ranged attack cantrips, and the benefit counts for future saving throws too, even if the caster moves away afterwards.
If you don't want someone to Misty Step away, just throw up Silence.
You can do bunch of attacks as bonus action or reaction. If that feat suppose to counter mages, maybe just rule it so he strikes him faster before he goes away.
Mage Slayer does not allow for an attack to be made against another creature casting Misty Step.
Mage Slayer allows for an attack to be made against a creature that has cast a spell. Counterspell is the only thing I'm aware of--without the use of the Ready action--that can occur prior to the other creature completing the casting their spell.
Misty Step is also an instantaneous teleportation spell. It resolves immediately; there's no target to attack anymore.
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Mage Slayer does not allow for an attack to be made against another creature casting Misty Step.
Mage Slayer allows for an attack to be made against a creature that has cast a spell. Counterspell is the only thing I'm aware of--without the use of the Ready action--that can occur prior to the other creature completing the casting their spell.
Misty Step is also an instantaneous teleportation spell. It resolves immediately; there's no target to attack anymore.
Yes I know the rules do not allow it, it is already in Sage Advice compedium I think
In some views, the spell is not "cast" until it is finished. When misty step finishes your target is no longer there and so you do not get an attack using your reaction from mage slayer since you no longer have a valid target
That's a pretty obtuse view then. There's a difference between "casting time" and "duration". It's like trying to tell the wizard that his Tiny Hut (8hr duration) hasn't been cast yet, even though they have been in it safely for 5 hours and completed a short rest. To each there own though I suppose. But I happen to like my players.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that is what David42 is saying. And I don't think your example of tiny hut accurately highlights your own assertion either. To take another try at your own example, I would say it's more like telling the wizard that tiny hut has not been cast yet when he is 30 seconds (AKA 5 rounds of combat) into his 1 minute casting time and can therefore be interrupted.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that is what David42 is saying. And I don't think your example of tiny hut accurately highlights your own assertion either. To take another try at your own example, I would say it's more like telling the wizard that tiny hut has not been cast yet when he is 30 seconds (AKA 5 rounds of combat) into his 1 minute casting time and can therefore be interrupted.
And that seems perfectly legitimate to me.
Yeah, Tiny Hut was probably a bad example, with the one minute cast time. I do stand by what I was getting at though.
He did say that it would not be considered cast until it has "finished". (not saying this is how he would rule it, just the way others would - so I'm not targeting him or being a dick...anyhow) If that's the case, then a spell being held as a reaction should be able to be counterspelled, since it hasn't "gone off" yet.
But here I am getting into a conversation that I've tried to avoid for over 30 years.... I hate these arguments. RAV vs RAI and all that nonsense... bleh Anyhow - to each their own I suppose. I just like to rule in favor of my players getting to use their cool abilities... I like my players.
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If an NPC used the spell Misty Step to get away from the Player with the Mage Slayer feat (assuming they are within Melee distance), would the player still get an opportunity attack against the creature before it vanished? would this instantly force it make a concentration check potentially causing it to loose the spell? what if the player also had the Sentinel feat would that matter?
yes however it not an OA anymore just a reaction that use for an attack. (this important since if you have sentinel it doesnt trigger the 0 movement effect)
Opportunity Attacks
You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
mage slayer
When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.
Sentinel
When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Misty step an instant non concentration spell so there no concentration check on that.
Nox - Adult Oblex - The Trials
Jartrin Ephok - Dragonborn - Zanoliv
Bunol - Grim Angel - The Floating Lands of Goriate
so counter spell is the only real way to stop an enemy from using spells like misty step or dimension door to escape?
If you only have your reaction availeble, yeah i think that the only option. silence can also disable both spells since they use verbal, aslong target inside the bubble but that cost an action.
Nox - Adult Oblex - The Trials
Jartrin Ephok - Dragonborn - Zanoliv
Bunol - Grim Angel - The Floating Lands of Goriate
Depending on how you interpret the trigger for the mage slayer effect ...
"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."
In some views, the spell is not "cast" until it is finished. When misty step finishes your target is no longer there and so you do not get an attack using your reaction from mage slayer since you no longer have a valid target.
There are no rules in D&D 5e for interrupting a spell while it is being cast EXCEPT for counterspell. Counterspell specifically says "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of
casting a spell." There is no concentration required for any spell before a spell is cast and the rules do not give any indication of how long a spell takes to cast except in terms of the action economy 1 action or 1 bonus action or a reaction.
I'm going to go with the use of a couple words in the Misty Step's description, specifically the Duration and Casting Time.
In the case of Misty Step we look first and see that it's Casting Time is 1 Bonus Action. This means it is quick, as such, a Bonus Action, to my understanding, is faster than a standard Attack action. (See David42's post below for a good explanation).
Also it's Duration is Instantaneous, which means it happens the moment the spell is cast, there is no lingering or lasting effect which takes a period of time to fully complete the spell.
I would rule that, while Mage Slayer would grant a Reaction to Attack the caster, there would be nothing to strike as they're already a "silvery mist".
edit: adjusted the time an action/bonus action takes.
I agree :) except with the part about an action taking 6 seconds. The entire turn takes six seconds. In that time, a character can take an action, a bonus action, a reaction (under suitable triggers ... eg a held attack action that triggers on their movement and they respond by casting shield) and move up to their full movement. In addition, a fighter may have the ability to action surge allowing a complete additional action on a turn in addition to all of the above. Considering that a turn takes 6 seconds, it isn't possible for an action to also take six seconds and permit all of the other actions and movement to also be taken.
So, my take is that actions, bonus actions and reactions will typically take significantly less than six seconds but the length of time required is not specifically defined within the rules.
misty step has a verbal component. This means the casting is not instantaneous, and a reaction can conceivably happen "during" the casting. The attack from mage slayer will happen, then the misty step spell will take affect. Exception being if the mage slayer attack reduces the NPC to 0 hp.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
This would depend on your DMs ruling, however...
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/24/caster-near-mage-slayer/
Therefore, the answer to the original question per Crawford is, "The caster is gone, since the spell is intended to resolve before the Mage Slayer attack (DMG, 252)." (see the sage advice link above).
So realistically the Mage Slayer Feet isnt super useful.
I disagree with that ruling because reactions with melee attacks resolve when an opponent starts to move away and can interrupt retreating by knocking an opponent unconscious, so starting to cast Misty Step should trigger the Mage Slayer feat.
In my experience it’s not that useful a feat anyway. How often do PC’s get into melee with spellcasters?
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It's quite useful but, as with any feat or ability, there will be options to circumvent what they can do. It just so happens that Misty Step vs Mage Slayer is going in favor of the caster. Can't win them all :)
It depends on how you want to play it. If you are playing a mage killer, you will want to close as often as possible, particularly if you're predominately a melee character. In melee, your superior AC and attack skills give you an advantage over many spellcasters. Their attack roll spells are at disadvantage, which means that if you have a 16 AC and they have a +5 to hit, they would normally have a 40% chance to hit (8/20, if your DM rules they need a 17 or higher to hit) or a 45% chance to hit (9/20, if they need the 16 or higher to hit). At disadvantage, those numbers drop to 16% (64/400) or 20.25% (81/400). That's just per the rules of magic (PHB, 205). This means that, barring a melee spell such as booming blade or shocking grasp, a spellcaster will either want to cast spells that have a saving throw or try to attack you (which typically means either poor bonus to hit, inferior damage die, or both--all of which are a bonus to you). With mage slayer, if they cast the spell at disadvantage or with the melee spell attack, then you get your "When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature" portion of mage slayer. More damage for a less than 50% chance to hit is a pretty good tradeoff, particularly if they aren't using spells that have a nasty side effect like the melee spell class typically has. If they are concentrating on a spell that is buffing one of their allies or debuffing one of your allies, the part of mage slayer, "When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration" kicks in meaning that they'll probably see about a 20 percentage point drop in their ability to make their save. If they choose to cast a saving throw spell instead, for a DC 12 or DC 13 (either ruling being interpreted as must roll 13 or greater), "You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you" moving your chance to save from 40% (8/20) to 64% (256/400).
Of course, this is all dependent on being able to stick to the caster, which means that classes, races, and feats that increase movement (outright such as wood elf, centaur, rogue's cunning action, barbarian's fast movement, or the mobile feat or indirectly through the charger feat; or through abilities with limits such as Tabaxi with Feline Agility, Githyanki with the 5th level misty step from Githyanki Psionics, EK using action surge or misty step) or through features or feats that limit movement (such as the Grappler feat, hold person, Battlemaster's Trip Attack, or Monk's Stunning Strike). If that doesn't sound like the type of character you want to play, then it's probably not that interesting for you. Additionally, you have to weigh the opportunity cost of taking it versus taking something else. But it has plenty of utility for what it wants to accomplish.
A round takes 6 seconds. Turns don't have defined durations and rounds will have as many turns as there are creatures in the scene.
Opportunity attacks specifically call out that they happen before the enemy leaves your reach. Reactions happen after their trigger by default (DMG chapter 8, Adjudicating Reaction Timing). The trigger for Mage Slayer isn't "when a creature starts casting a spell" or "when a creature is casting a spell" (e.g. counterspell), it's "when a creature casts a spell." They have to cast the spell before you can take the reaction, and that hasn't happened until the spell goes off.
See also "Does the attack granted by the third benefit of the Sentinel feat take place before or after the triggering attack?" in Sage Advice Compendium:
And these tweets:
"Mage Slayer doesn't specify timing, and a reaction without special timing occurs after its trigger (DMG, 252)."
"The caster is gone, since the spell is intended to resolve before the Mage Slayer attack (DMG, 252)."
Mage Slayer is still a solid feat. Imposing disadvantage on concentration saves is amazing, and it doesn't even matter how you're dealing the damage - melee attacks, ranged attacks, a saving throw spell, a dragonborn's breath weapon, whatever.
Advantage on saving throws against spells cast within 5 feet of you is also an amazing benefit, since sometimes spellcasters reach for saving throw spells when they can't use their ranged attack cantrips, and the benefit counts for future saving throws too, even if the caster moves away afterwards.
If you don't want someone to Misty Step away, just throw up Silence.
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You can do bunch of attacks as bonus action or reaction. If that feat suppose to counter mages, maybe just rule it so he strikes him faster before he goes away.
If he use V,S or M components
Mage Slayer does not allow for an attack to be made against another creature casting Misty Step.
Mage Slayer allows for an attack to be made against a creature that has cast a spell. Counterspell is the only thing I'm aware of--without the use of the Ready action--that can occur prior to the other creature completing the casting their spell.
Misty Step is also an instantaneous teleportation spell. It resolves immediately; there's no target to attack anymore.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yes I know the rules do not allow it, it is already in Sage Advice compedium I think
That's a pretty obtuse view then.
There's a difference between "casting time" and "duration".
It's like trying to tell the wizard that his Tiny Hut (8hr duration) hasn't been cast yet, even though they have been in it safely for 5 hours and completed a short rest.
To each there own though I suppose. But I happen to like my players.
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I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that is what David42 is saying. And I don't think your example of tiny hut accurately highlights your own assertion either. To take another try at your own example, I would say it's more like telling the wizard that tiny hut has not been cast yet when he is 30 seconds (AKA 5 rounds of combat) into his 1 minute casting time and can therefore be interrupted.
And that seems perfectly legitimate to me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, Tiny Hut was probably a bad example, with the one minute cast time.
I do stand by what I was getting at though.
He did say that it would not be considered cast until it has "finished". (not saying this is how he would rule it, just the way others would - so I'm not targeting him or being a dick...anyhow)
If that's the case, then a spell being held as a reaction should be able to be counterspelled, since it hasn't "gone off" yet.
But here I am getting into a conversation that I've tried to avoid for over 30 years.... I hate these arguments. RAV vs RAI and all that nonsense... bleh
Anyhow - to each their own I suppose. I just like to rule in favor of my players getting to use their cool abilities... I like my players.
...cryptographic randomness!