Wizard casts True Polymorph on a large rock to turn in into a Clay Golem, and concentrates the entire duration so that it "lasts until it is dispelled." The Clay Golem has Immutable Form, which reads, "The golem is immune to any spell or effect that would alter its form."
Does this mean that the Clay Golem would then truly be "permanent" (maybe short of the Wish spell)?
Spells like Dispel Magic & Antimagic Field, and any other similar "effect," would normally "alter its form" back into the large rock, but since it has Immutable Form...
Nice try, but I'm gonna have to say "no, this spell does not entitle you an endless supply of free permanent Clay Golems". Dispel Magic does not have the effect of altering the Clay Golem's form - it has the effect of dispelling the ongoing effects of True Polymorph, which is currently altering a large rock's form. The rock doesn't have Immutable Form, and True Polymorph is not currently altering the Clay Golem's form because that would be impossible due to a Clay Golem form being immune to such things.
Ouch :-/ Never asked for "an endless supply of free permanent Clay Golems," nor would I (my character) feel "entitled" to it.
...just a Deep Gnome jeweler wanting a bsf to protect him...
(Also, the rock not having Immutable Form is irrelevant. Dispel Magic isn't being cast on a rock; it would be targeting a "magical effect." In fact, your entire last sentence doesn't really make sense, considering this.)
Thanks for your reply, though...
Can you give an example of a "spell or effect that would alter its form" that isn't one of the 3 Polymorph spells, Dispel Magic, or Antimagic Field? If not, I guess being immune to the 3 Polymorphs isn't so bad...
Enlarge/Reduce, Gaseous Form and Flesh to Stone might be some examples. "Alter form" is not exactly a defined term in the rules, so it would be DM's call on these and other spells/effects, though Polymorph seems a certain immunity.
And apologies, I didn't mean to imply you or your particular character desired a Golem horde. I believe any ruling I make for a permanent or ongoing situation must be robust if someone were to try to abuse it so I tend to argumentum ad absurdum. I'm here for the rules to serve the fun, not for the rules to be abused to serve some min-maxer's power fantasy (again, not talking about you here).
And apologies, I didn't mean to imply you or your particular character desired a Golem horde. I believe any ruling I make for a permanent or ongoing situation must be robust if someone were to try to abuse it so I tend to argumentum ad absurdum. I'm here for the rules to serve the fun, not for the rules to be abused to serve some min-maxer's power fantasy (again, not talking about you here).
An army (or at least an entourage) of creatures was definitely my first thought after reading true polymorph.
Well, if the rock assumes the creatures statistics, then it gains the Immutable Form property, no? And that means anything that changes it’s new form wouldn’t work. So therefore, it does sound like it has this, no? But that’s not right, as it doesn’t have the trait until it becomes the golem, until it’s permanent. So if someone dispels the magic before it’s permanent, then it changes into a rock. But if it is permanent and someone dispels it, it’s still a golem. That’s how I would rule it.
If your Clay Golem was inside of an Antimagic Field, or Dispel Magic was successfully cast on it, the Clay Golem would change back into a large rock. That large rock would still LOOK like a Clay Golem in every way, though, since Immutable Form prevented (before it changed) any effect from "alter[ing] its form."
This reading of "alter its form" would be interpreted as changing shape, composition, size, etc. rather than changing from one stat block to another (or lack thereof) the way that the Polymorph spells would.
Thanks for all the replies :-) Just for reference (as far as "controlling" it goes), our Druid is going to cast Awaken on it for me (supplying the 1000 gp agate won't be a problem). It can't be charmed (immune), but it's Intelligence will increase from 3 to 10 and will be able to speak/answer questions and better understand/follow instruction.
Of course, with only a 1 in Charisma, it won't become the life of the party, or even be able to have a conversation for that matter; but, it will still be far more reliable. It will be relatively easy to keep healthy (happy), too, as it can be healed by Acid damage (Acid Splash, Acid Arrow, Acid vial, etc). As quoted from the True Polymorph spell, "It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."
Surely, after being Awakened and easily kept healthy, this will be the case. This will be discussed with our DM, of course, as will all replies here.
Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I just have to add my interpretation.
The way that I would rule it i: If the character is aware that it was a true polymorphed rock, then they could cast Dispel Magic targeting the true form (a rock), but if it was cast at the golem, then it would have no effect, due to that form's Immutable Form. Gives a backdoor into getting rid of them, based on the knowledge of a secret.
Not really a reply to your question since reading the other comments it seems the question was already addressed. But a fun lil fact I think it's worth knowing about clay golems that most people don't know.
It can single handedly kill a tarrasque.
Clay golems are immune to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing attacks which is basically all the tarrasque has going for it. And they heal when someone tries to use acid on them, e.g. if the tarrasque eats him. And a golems punches are considered magical weapons which is what is needed to deal damage to a tarrasque.
TL:DR golem can hit tarrasque to death and tarrasque can't do shit except heal the golem. ^_^
Just for reference (as far as "controlling" it goes), our Druid is going to cast Awaken on it for me (supplying the 1000 gp agate won't be a problem). It can't be charmed (immune), but it's Intelligence will increase from 3 to 10 and will be able to speak/answer questions and better understand/follow instruction.
It's just a shame that Awaken won't work on constructs.
Object into Creature. You can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creature’s size is no larger than the object’s size and the creature’s challenge rating is 9 or lower. The creature is friendly to you and your companions. It acts on each of your turns. You decide what action it takes and how it moves. The GM has the creature’s statistics and resolves all of its actions and movement.
If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it.
Then as a DM I'd review - Challenge rating 9 or less - check. Size of clay design = size of Golem. You now have a clay golem (that takes 1 hr to create), friendly based on how you and your companions treat it. It is permanent as you've concentrated for the full duration and now autonomous ->GM decides actions. Int 3 -> may take a while to realize that it keeps getting hurt trying to help its friends in battle if they don't help it or it fights alongside the group for as long as it doesn't feel used. To me it seems ok but like a pet, will leave at earliest opportunity if it feels mistreated or taken advantage of, possibly lonely. Its speed would require the group to slow down to its 20" and can only go to places it could manage size or dexterity wise.
Multiple applications of the spell may cause this or other golem to battle over your friendship, leave feeling that you aren't spending enough time being its friend as you have other friends now, etc.
DMs may always accommodate an OP situation with their own OP encounters or cause the clay golem to be particularly moody for instance. Even possibly decide that an enemy is being much nicer to it than you. Depending heavily on its treatment.
Immutable Form says the creature is immune to effects that alter the creatures form, but last I checked the actual RAW effects of Dispel Magic and Anti Magic Field don’t do that. Just because an effect that ends spells or suppresses magic has a situational and unwritten side effect does not mean the actual RAW effect is changing the form.
the polymorphed rock/golem would be immune to other effects whose stated RAW would change the form, but not effects whose stated RAW does not (ie dispel Magic or antimagic field), even if those effects would result in a form change indirectly
Casting True Polymorph on a rock to create a Clay golem would work
That Clay Golem would be immune to any additional castings of Polymorph or True Polymorph along with enlarge/reduce
The Clay Golem would return to be a rock if caster drops concentration before the spell ends
The Clay Golem would return to be a rock if someone casts Dispel Magic because it ends the spell true polymorph, indirectly changing it back into a rock
The Clay Golem would temporarily be a rock while in the Antimagic Field due to spells being cast on an object are supressed so not targeting the Golem but targeting the True Polymorph spell indirectly changing the golem
The Clay Golem would obey commands from the caster until the spells concentration period ends for sure.
Someone pointed it out like this, True Polymorph is like a light switch, the Rock is the socket, and Clay Golem is the Bulb, you can't touch the bulb its too hot to unscrew, but you could smash the light bulb leaving an empty socket (killing the clay golem and true polymorph ends thus becoming a rock), turn off the light switch (Dispelling True polymorph turning the Golem into a rock, or you could turn off the breakers shutting off all electricity to the area (Antimagic field supresses all active spells and magical effects in the area).
Now the weird part:
Would the Clay Golem follow the commands of the caster after the spell's concentration portion ends?
True polymorph says no but Golems obey their creators
Would the Clay Golem see the caster of True Polymorph as its creator and follow all commands? Or would the Rock obey whoever created the rock and follow their commands?
Rock now a Clay Golem obeys caster or Rock polymorphed into Clay Golem obeys Volcano that created it or the god that created the volcano or the Elemental Lord of Earth
In my opinion, having an army of Clay Golems at lvl 17+ is absolutely fine. 😁 The character is pretty much a demigod with lvl 9 spells anyway. And the enemies they are up against at those levels have all sorts of ways to make you unable to use the army. Also logistics... I'd probably make them guard my hoard. Yes, hoard, because I just permanently turned myself into an ancient brass dragon with True Polymorph
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Wizard casts True Polymorph on a large rock to turn in into a Clay Golem, and concentrates the entire duration so that it "lasts until it is dispelled."
The Clay Golem has Immutable Form, which reads, "The golem is immune to any spell or effect that would alter its form."
Does this mean that the Clay Golem would then truly be "permanent" (maybe short of the Wish spell)?
Spells like Dispel Magic & Antimagic Field, and any other similar "effect," would normally "alter its form" back into the large rock, but since it has Immutable Form...
Nice try, but I'm gonna have to say "no, this spell does not entitle you an endless supply of free permanent Clay Golems". Dispel Magic does not have the effect of altering the Clay Golem's form - it has the effect of dispelling the ongoing effects of True Polymorph, which is currently altering a large rock's form. The rock doesn't have Immutable Form, and True Polymorph is not currently altering the Clay Golem's form because that would be impossible due to a Clay Golem form being immune to such things.
Ouch :-/
Never asked for "an endless supply of free permanent Clay Golems," nor would I (my character) feel "entitled" to it.
...just a Deep Gnome jeweler wanting a bsf to protect him...
(Also, the rock not having Immutable Form is irrelevant. Dispel Magic isn't being cast on a rock; it would be targeting a "magical effect." In fact, your entire last sentence doesn't really make sense, considering this.)
Thanks for your reply, though...
Can you give an example of a "spell or effect that would alter its form" that isn't one of the 3 Polymorph spells, Dispel Magic, or Antimagic Field? If not, I guess being immune to the 3 Polymorphs isn't so bad...
Enlarge/Reduce, Gaseous Form and Flesh to Stone might be some examples. "Alter form" is not exactly a defined term in the rules, so it would be DM's call on these and other spells/effects, though Polymorph seems a certain immunity.
And apologies, I didn't mean to imply you or your particular character desired a Golem horde. I believe any ruling I make for a permanent or ongoing situation must be robust if someone were to try to abuse it so I tend to argumentum ad absurdum. I'm here for the rules to serve the fun, not for the rules to be abused to serve some min-maxer's power fantasy (again, not talking about you here).
An army (or at least an entourage) of creatures was definitely my first thought after reading true polymorph.
Well, if the rock assumes the creatures statistics, then it gains the Immutable Form property, no? And that means anything that changes it’s new form wouldn’t work. So therefore, it does sound like it has this, no? But that’s not right, as it doesn’t have the trait until it becomes the golem, until it’s permanent. So if someone dispels the magic before it’s permanent, then it changes into a rock. But if it is permanent and someone dispels it, it’s still a golem. That’s how I would rule it.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
If your Clay Golem was inside of an Antimagic Field, or Dispel Magic was successfully cast on it, the Clay Golem would change back into a large rock.
That large rock would still LOOK like a Clay Golem in every way, though, since Immutable Form prevented (before it changed) any effect from "alter[ing] its form."
This reading of "alter its form" would be interpreted as changing shape, composition, size, etc. rather than changing from one stat block to another (or lack thereof) the way that the Polymorph spells would.
And what if the clay golem appeared, but you didn't know how to properly command it? Sounds like you need a Doll of Golem Control.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Thanks for all the replies :-)
Just for reference (as far as "controlling" it goes), our Druid is going to cast Awaken on it for me (supplying the 1000 gp agate won't be a problem). It can't be charmed (immune), but it's Intelligence will increase from 3 to 10 and will be able to speak/answer questions and better understand/follow instruction.
Of course, with only a 1 in Charisma, it won't become the life of the party, or even be able to have a conversation for that matter; but, it will still be far more reliable. It will be relatively easy to keep healthy (happy), too, as it can be healed by Acid damage (Acid Splash, Acid Arrow, Acid vial, etc). As quoted from the True Polymorph spell, "It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."
Surely, after being Awakened and easily kept healthy, this will be the case. This will be discussed with our DM, of course, as will all replies here.
Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I just have to add my interpretation.
The way that I would rule it i: If the character is aware that it was a true polymorphed rock, then they could cast Dispel Magic targeting the true form (a rock), but if it was cast at the golem, then it would have no effect, due to that form's Immutable Form. Gives a backdoor into getting rid of them, based on the knowledge of a secret.
Not really a reply to your question since reading the other comments it seems the question was already addressed. But a fun lil fact I think it's worth knowing about clay golems that most people don't know.
It can single handedly kill a tarrasque.
Clay golems are immune to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing attacks which is basically all the tarrasque has going for it. And they heal when someone tries to use acid on them, e.g. if the tarrasque eats him. And a golems punches are considered magical weapons which is what is needed to deal damage to a tarrasque.
TL:DR golem can hit tarrasque to death and tarrasque can't do shit except heal the golem. ^_^
Interesting.
It's just a shame that Awaken won't work on constructs.
The golem in the belly probably just going to stay in the belly for a while. Needs a natural 17 at disadvantage to hit
In reading the true polymorph I see at the end
Then as a DM I'd review - Challenge rating 9 or less - check. Size of clay design = size of Golem. You now have a clay golem (that takes 1 hr to create), friendly based on how you and your companions treat it. It is permanent as you've concentrated for the full duration and now autonomous ->GM decides actions. Int 3 -> may take a while to realize that it keeps getting hurt trying to help its friends in battle if they don't help it or it fights alongside the group for as long as it doesn't feel used. To me it seems ok but like a pet, will leave at earliest opportunity if it feels mistreated or taken advantage of, possibly lonely. Its speed would require the group to slow down to its 20" and can only go to places it could manage size or dexterity wise.
Multiple applications of the spell may cause this or other golem to battle over your friendship, leave feeling that you aren't spending enough time being its friend as you have other friends now, etc.
DMs may always accommodate an OP situation with their own OP encounters or cause the clay golem to be particularly moody for instance. Even possibly decide that an enemy is being much nicer to it than you. Depending heavily on its treatment.
Immutable Form says the creature is immune to effects that alter the creatures form, but last I checked the actual RAW effects of Dispel Magic and Anti Magic Field don’t do that. Just because an effect that ends spells or suppresses magic has a situational and unwritten side effect does not mean the actual RAW effect is changing the form.
the polymorphed rock/golem would be immune to other effects whose stated RAW would change the form, but not effects whose stated RAW does not (ie dispel Magic or antimagic field), even if those effects would result in a form change indirectly
Once it is permanent, can it even be dispelled? I mean, you can't dispel a clone once the spirit has entered it.
Only once a spell ends can it no longer be dispelled. A permanent spell is still an active spell, and hence dispellable.
Edit: Clone has an instantaneous duration. That means it can't be dispelled at all. But the Clone can be destroyed and rendered unusable.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
In my opinion:
Someone pointed it out like this, True Polymorph is like a light switch, the Rock is the socket, and Clay Golem is the Bulb, you can't touch the bulb its too hot to unscrew, but you could smash the light bulb leaving an empty socket (killing the clay golem and true polymorph ends thus becoming a rock), turn off the light switch (Dispelling True polymorph turning the Golem into a rock, or you could turn off the breakers shutting off all electricity to the area (Antimagic field supresses all active spells and magical effects in the area).
Now the weird part:
Would the Clay Golem follow the commands of the caster after the spell's concentration portion ends?
Would the Clay Golem see the caster of True Polymorph as its creator and follow all commands? Or would the Rock obey whoever created the rock and follow their commands?
In my opinion, having an army of Clay Golems at lvl 17+ is absolutely fine. 😁 The character is pretty much a demigod with lvl 9 spells anyway. And the enemies they are up against at those levels have all sorts of ways to make you unable to use the army. Also logistics... I'd probably make them guard my hoard. Yes, hoard, because I just permanently turned myself into an ancient brass dragon with True Polymorph
Finland GMT/UTC +2