So my players are running through the Tomb of Annihilation. They just had a nasty fight, and without spoiling anything, the cleric got turned to stone because of a few unlucky rolls. The Druid wants to use Greater Restoration to bring him back, but they do not have the necessary 100 gp of diamond dust to cast the spell. They do have, however, a 300 gp diamond that they found elsewhere. The spell states specifically that diamond dust is required for the spell, so my druid wants to know if they can crush the diamond and get dust from it to be used for the spell.
My thought is that no, they can't, because they don't really have tools to break a diamond down to dust, something that would require more than just a standard hammer or axe. Further, breaking the diamond into pieces wouldn't necessarily turn it to dust, at least not wholly, and whatever dust they managed to get wouldn't necessarily be worth the 100 gp they need.
Does anybody know of anything that could clear this up? A skill check that I could have them make? Or should I just rule that the cleric is a statue until they manage to find the dust somewhere else?
If you put the diamond in a bag and smash it repeatedly with a hammer against something just as hard it will shatter over and over creating effectively diamond dust. How much diamond dust is required for a value of 100gp is entirely up to you.
Well, you could always choose from these 2 options
1. Have the party go to a town and trade this diamond for coins and buy diamond dust and leave the cleric there for the time being.
2. Allow the spell to be cast, causing the diamond to be turned into the spell (roll for the possibility that all of the diamond was not consumed in the spell so that some dust remains(for another spell to be cast later)).
Possibly let your players choose the option that suits them (leaving out the possibility for the diamond dust roll if they save him now)
Remember you are in charge in the end as the DM but you don't want to be a great hinderance to your players succeeding and you in the end are the rules, despite what is written.
(AKA DM's are so powerful they get to literally control everything and warp the reality to their own whims and wants)
If you put the diamond in a bag and smash it repeatedly with a hammer against something just as hard it will shatter over and over creating effectively diamond dust.
Agreed. I'd also rule that a 300gp diamond would create 300gp worth of diamond dust (because, magic).
Agreed. I'd also rule that a 300gp diamond would create 300gp worth of diamond dust (because, magic).
I'd rule that crushing the diamond greatly reduces its value since, for example, one 2 carat diamond is far more valuable than two 1 carat diamonds. In this case, I would probably allow them to crush the diamond for the required material, but I would also warn them that if they were able to sell the diamond they'd be able to buy the dust with 200gp left over.
I would ask myself... what is the most fun? Crushing the diamond and allowing the cleric player to continue playing... or making the cleric player sit out a session or two waiting for the PCs to get to town and back.
If you think it thru like that then the answer is a little more obvious. Let them crush the diamond, restore the cleric and move on. I'd even let the druid get 300gp worth of gold dust out of the diamond. I assume spell casters are familiar with how to create the material components of their spells. Why make a big deal out of spell components? I can think of much more fun things to be doing at the tabletop.
I agree with the above comments that you should allow the party to crush the diamond.
To keep things interesting, I would say make properly crushing take time and effort. If they don't move themselves to a safe location, there is always the possibility of a random encounter during the time they are smashing the diamond.
Additionally, for the effort, if they aren't smart about splitting up the work or what tools they use (say, they choose to have one character go at it with a hammer), you could give out levels of exhaustion from all the physical power they had to muster to crush it into a fine powder. You could also have this process wear away at the tool a little bit if you wanted.
Telling them this ahead of time (or at least hinting towards it) might inspire interesting strategies (such as maybe dropping a rock off a high structure onto the bag to reduce work required by them and potential wear and tear on their tools).
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I'd rule that crushing the diamond greatly reduces its value since, for example, one 2 carat diamond is far more valuable than two 1 carat diamonds.
While that's true from a logical perspective, we don't know how it works in a magical/fantasy game world. Magic seems to be an art rather than a science, and it seems to require sacrifice (I mean: why are gems even being used at all?). The value of that sacrifice might not be calculated post-grinding. Especially In a gamist game like D&D: 100gp might just be 100gp.
Also: large gems and hoards of gold seem more abundant in fantasy worlds. A pound of gold is certainly less valuable in D&D worlds (50 gp) than it is in ours ($19k), so gems might be too (especially with presence of magic, underdark mines, access the elemental plane of earth, etc.). For my own games (for pure convenience), I've simplified it to 1 carat=100 gp... possibly because trade guilds might have reason to standardize monetary transactions, but mostly because:
you could give out levels of exhaustion from all the physical power they had to muster to crush it into a fine powder. You could also have this process wear away at the tool a little bit if you wanted.
I think people are still overestimating how much effort it takes to shatter a diamond: "A diamond will shatter if hit with an ordinary hammer"
you could give out levels of exhaustion from all the physical power they had to muster to crush it into a fine powder. You could also have this process wear away at the tool a little bit if you wanted.
I think people are still overestimating how much effort it takes to shatter a diamond: "A diamond will shatter if hit with an ordinary hammer"
Well yes, but you aren't just shattering it, you are reducing it to a fine powder. So its going to require an extended time of hitting the diamond pieces over and over and over again (probably at nearly full strength) to reduce it to a uniform dust. I would still argue that leaving this job entirely to one person could result in at least one level of exhaustion if it is done quickly. If done over a long period of time, then probably not, but would open the opportunity for more random encounters.
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The spell Fabricate would do the job of turning the gem to dust.
As a DM, I wouldn’t get too caught up in the “does a 300 gp gem create 300 gp of gem dust” question. The spell has material component with gp value to indicate that it requires the caster to use up some of their resources beyond a spell slot. If they grind up a 300 gp gem and use 1/3 of the dust, they have fulfilled the requirement. I’m sure some DM somewhere has had an NPC sell a player gem dust for 100 gp and then when the player tries to cast the spell, the DM says “the NPC cheated you, you only have 90 gp of gem dust so the spell fails”. That is an example of a DM that should never DM again.
I would ask myself... what is the most fun? Crushing the diamond and allowing the cleric player to continue playing... or making the cleric player sit out a session or two waiting for the PCs to get to town and back.
If you think it thru like that then the answer is a little more obvious. Let them crush the diamond, restore the cleric and move on. I'd even let the druid get 300gp worth of gold dust out of the diamond. I assume spell casters are familiar with how to create the material components of their spells. Why make a big deal out of spell components? I can think of much more fun things to be doing at the tabletop.
This is the right approach to take. Not necessarily the correct conclusion, since that would depend on the group (both players and DM). But you should definitely start out by considering which of the options will result in the most fun for the table. In my case, it'd probably be this (that is, let the players crush the gem, and use the dust, having enough dust for two more castings). But for other groups, it might sound more fun to go on a side-adventure trying to obtain the dust (be it by finding a way to crush the gem they own, or otherwise getting their hands on dust). In that case, though, consider the player whose character got turned to stone: while the other players might find it fun to go on a side-adventure, the cleric's player might be bored, having nothing to do.
Although in reality taking a valuable diamond and turning it into powder would likely reduce its total value, D&D/Pathfinder does not model prices of luxury items in that much detail. Instead the spell component cost is supposed to be a mechanical transaction that limits number of castings of a spell. You input 100gp of funds (plus in the narrative it is reasonable to obtain the precise component you need), you can cast the spell."
I would let the party crush the diamond into dust. I would probably only give them two castings worth of diamond dust. They are crushing the diamond under less than ideal conditions, so there is likely to be some wastage. But I would not be a stickler on that point if they said they were taking precautions not to lose the dust for instance. If dragons and the Tomb of Horrors can exist, heroes can crush a diamond into dust to cast a sell.
Also: large gems and hoards of gold seem more abundant in fantasy worlds. A pound of gold is certainly less valuable in D&D worlds (50 gp) than it is in ours ($19k), so gems might be too (especially with presence of magic, underdark mines, access the elemental plane of earth, etc.). For my own games (for pure convenience), I've simplified it to 1 carat=100 gp... possibly because trade guilds might have reason to standardize monetary transactions, but mostly because:
It's a game.
50gp and $19k aren't that far apart, though its hard to tell with the wide variance in the price of things. I typically simplify it to 1cp = $1 ($5k per pound)since it makes for easy conversions but the actual value seems somewhere between $1-5. ($5-25k)
Why do you say that? The various 5 gp items do not seem worth close to $2000, like: chest, 10' Chain, costume, Hunting trap, hooded Lantern, Perfume vial, Scale, 10 days rations, steel mirror, Handaxe, 1 sq. yd. of linen, two sheep or pigs, saddlebags, 30 meals, etc.
While not everything will mesh perfectly, the "1cp = $1" (and therefore 1sp = $10, 1gp = $100) conversion is quite handy. That does mean that some things appear ridiculously overpriced, but bear in mind these were different times, and some things were, in fact, more expensive back then. So $500 for a vial of perfume is not unreasonable (there's a reason why only nobles used perfume). $500 for 10 days rations might seem expensive, but that amounts to $50 per day, which is roughly $17 per meal, which is expensive, but consider that rations, while not particularly yummy, did keep very well over time. $16 is what you'd pay for a loaf of break, a chunk of cheese, and a mug of ale ($10 for the cheese, $2 for the bread, and $4 for the ale). A banquet would be $100, which is not unreasonable, again. Gold was, apparently, cheaper then, though, at $5000 per pound, rather than today's ~$20k, but gold does increase in price over time.
It's not perfect, but it's not meant to be. It works. =)
Why do you say that? The various 5 gp items do not seem worth close to $2000, like: chest, 10' Chain, costume, Hunting trap, hooded Lantern, Perfume vial, Scale, 10 days rations, steel mirror, Handaxe, 1 sq. yd. of linen, two sheep or pigs, saddlebags, 30 meals, etc.
I base it mostly on what a person can typically earn in a day without looting dead bodies and the like.
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So my players are running through the Tomb of Annihilation. They just had a nasty fight, and without spoiling anything, the cleric got turned to stone because of a few unlucky rolls. The Druid wants to use Greater Restoration to bring him back, but they do not have the necessary 100 gp of diamond dust to cast the spell. They do have, however, a 300 gp diamond that they found elsewhere. The spell states specifically that diamond dust is required for the spell, so my druid wants to know if they can crush the diamond and get dust from it to be used for the spell.
My thought is that no, they can't, because they don't really have tools to break a diamond down to dust, something that would require more than just a standard hammer or axe. Further, breaking the diamond into pieces wouldn't necessarily turn it to dust, at least not wholly, and whatever dust they managed to get wouldn't necessarily be worth the 100 gp they need.
Does anybody know of anything that could clear this up? A skill check that I could have them make? Or should I just rule that the cleric is a statue until they manage to find the dust somewhere else?
Diamonds surfaces are hard to scratch but in general they tend to be brittle and will shatter when hit hard enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond
If you put the diamond in a bag and smash it repeatedly with a hammer against something just as hard it will shatter over and over creating effectively diamond dust. How much diamond dust is required for a value of 100gp is entirely up to you.
Well, you could always choose from these 2 options
1. Have the party go to a town and trade this diamond for coins and buy diamond dust and leave the cleric there for the time being.
2. Allow the spell to be cast, causing the diamond to be turned into the spell (roll for the possibility that all of the diamond was not consumed in the spell so that some dust remains(for another spell to be cast later)).
Possibly let your players choose the option that suits them (leaving out the possibility for the diamond dust roll if they save him now)
Remember you are in charge in the end as the DM but you don't want to be a great hinderance to your players succeeding and you in the end are the rules, despite what is written.
(AKA DM's are so powerful they get to literally control everything and warp the reality to their own whims and wants)
Warforged Fighter Talien
Agreed. I'd also rule that a 300gp diamond would create 300gp worth of diamond dust (because, magic).
I'd rule that crushing the diamond greatly reduces its value since, for example, one 2 carat diamond is far more valuable than two 1 carat diamonds. In this case, I would probably allow them to crush the diamond for the required material, but I would also warn them that if they were able to sell the diamond they'd be able to buy the dust with 200gp left over.
I would ask myself... what is the most fun? Crushing the diamond and allowing the cleric player to continue playing... or making the cleric player sit out a session or two waiting for the PCs to get to town and back.
If you think it thru like that then the answer is a little more obvious. Let them crush the diamond, restore the cleric and move on. I'd even let the druid get 300gp worth of gold dust out of the diamond. I assume spell casters are familiar with how to create the material components of their spells. Why make a big deal out of spell components? I can think of much more fun things to be doing at the tabletop.
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I agree with the above comments that you should allow the party to crush the diamond.
To keep things interesting, I would say make properly crushing take time and effort. If they don't move themselves to a safe location, there is always the possibility of a random encounter during the time they are smashing the diamond.
Additionally, for the effort, if they aren't smart about splitting up the work or what tools they use (say, they choose to have one character go at it with a hammer), you could give out levels of exhaustion from all the physical power they had to muster to crush it into a fine powder. You could also have this process wear away at the tool a little bit if you wanted.
Telling them this ahead of time (or at least hinting towards it) might inspire interesting strategies (such as maybe dropping a rock off a high structure onto the bag to reduce work required by them and potential wear and tear on their tools).
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
While that's true from a logical perspective, we don't know how it works in a magical/fantasy game world. Magic seems to be an art rather than a science, and it seems to require sacrifice (I mean: why are gems even being used at all?). The value of that sacrifice might not be calculated post-grinding. Especially In a gamist game like D&D: 100gp might just be 100gp.
Also: large gems and hoards of gold seem more abundant in fantasy worlds. A pound of gold is certainly less valuable in D&D worlds (50 gp) than it is in ours ($19k), so gems might be too (especially with presence of magic, underdark mines, access the elemental plane of earth, etc.). For my own games (for pure convenience), I've simplified it to 1 carat=100 gp... possibly because trade guilds might have reason to standardize monetary transactions, but mostly because:
It's a game.
I think people are still overestimating how much effort it takes to shatter a diamond: "A diamond will shatter if hit with an ordinary hammer"
Well yes, but you aren't just shattering it, you are reducing it to a fine powder. So its going to require an extended time of hitting the diamond pieces over and over and over again (probably at nearly full strength) to reduce it to a uniform dust. I would still argue that leaving this job entirely to one person could result in at least one level of exhaustion if it is done quickly. If done over a long period of time, then probably not, but would open the opportunity for more random encounters.
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You could get the small shards into dust very easily with an Alchemist Kit because of the Pestle and Mortar.
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The spell Fabricate would do the job of turning the gem to dust.
As a DM, I wouldn’t get too caught up in the “does a 300 gp gem create 300 gp of gem dust” question. The spell has material component with gp value to indicate that it requires the caster to use up some of their resources beyond a spell slot. If they grind up a 300 gp gem and use 1/3 of the dust, they have fulfilled the requirement. I’m sure some DM somewhere has had an NPC sell a player gem dust for 100 gp and then when the player tries to cast the spell, the DM says “the NPC cheated you, you only have 90 gp of gem dust so the spell fails”. That is an example of a DM that should never DM again.
This is the right approach to take. Not necessarily the correct conclusion, since that would depend on the group (both players and DM). But you should definitely start out by considering which of the options will result in the most fun for the table. In my case, it'd probably be this (that is, let the players crush the gem, and use the dust, having enough dust for two more castings). But for other groups, it might sound more fun to go on a side-adventure trying to obtain the dust (be it by finding a way to crush the gem they own, or otherwise getting their hands on dust). In that case, though, consider the player whose character got turned to stone: while the other players might find it fun to go on a side-adventure, the cleric's player might be bored, having nothing to do.
From the upvoted answer here, if desired:
"Don't overthink it.
Although in reality taking a valuable diamond and turning it into powder would likely reduce its total value, D&D/Pathfinder does not model prices of luxury items in that much detail. Instead the spell component cost is supposed to be a mechanical transaction that limits number of castings of a spell. You input 100gp of funds (plus in the narrative it is reasonable to obtain the precise component you need), you can cast the spell."
I would let the party crush the diamond into dust. I would probably only give them two castings worth of diamond dust. They are crushing the diamond under less than ideal conditions, so there is likely to be some wastage. But I would not be a stickler on that point if they said they were taking precautions not to lose the dust for instance. If dragons and the Tomb of Horrors can exist, heroes can crush a diamond into dust to cast a sell.
50gp and $19k aren't that far apart, though its hard to tell with the wide variance in the price of things. I typically simplify it to 1cp = $1 ($5k per pound)since it makes for easy conversions but the actual value seems somewhere between $1-5. ($5-25k)
Why do you say that? The various 5 gp items do not seem worth close to $2000, like: chest, 10' Chain, costume, Hunting trap, hooded Lantern, Perfume vial, Scale, 10 days rations, steel mirror, Handaxe, 1 sq. yd. of linen, two sheep or pigs, saddlebags, 30 meals, etc.
While not everything will mesh perfectly, the "1cp = $1" (and therefore 1sp = $10, 1gp = $100) conversion is quite handy. That does mean that some things appear ridiculously overpriced, but bear in mind these were different times, and some things were, in fact, more expensive back then. So $500 for a vial of perfume is not unreasonable (there's a reason why only nobles used perfume). $500 for 10 days rations might seem expensive, but that amounts to $50 per day, which is roughly $17 per meal, which is expensive, but consider that rations, while not particularly yummy, did keep very well over time. $16 is what you'd pay for a loaf of break, a chunk of cheese, and a mug of ale ($10 for the cheese, $2 for the bread, and $4 for the ale). A banquet would be $100, which is not unreasonable, again. Gold was, apparently, cheaper then, though, at $5000 per pound, rather than today's ~$20k, but gold does increase in price over time.
It's not perfect, but it's not meant to be. It works. =)
heh, I always thought of gp as dollars. cp = penny, sp = dime, ep = 50 cents, gp = dollar, pp= $10 coin.
OK who am I kidding? Nobody even uses ep.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I base it mostly on what a person can typically earn in a day without looting dead bodies and the like.