The Thunderclap cantrip says that "You create a burst of thunderous sound that can be heard up to 100 feet away."
A normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away. A normal human speaking voice can in fact be heard over 500' away. 100 is not all that impressive for 'thunder'. Doing damage to 100' would be impressive. Being heard at 100' is...actually really, really quiet.
I guess they are saying, “use this spell in a dungeon and any creatures within 100’ will hear it and won’t be surprised”. Or maybe, “use this spell in a town and people (guards) within 100’ will investigate”.
A creature at 101’ just assumes it’s natural thunder or a door slamming?
I agree 1oo feet for a clap of thunder to be heard isn't really impressive. Even a hundred yards is only the length of a football field. Actual thunderclaps can be heard for miles.
I guess they are saying, “use this spell in a dungeon and any creatures within 100’ will hear it and won’t be surprised”. Or maybe, “use this spell in a town and people (guards) within 100’ will investigate”.
A creature at 101’ just assumes it’s natural thunder or a door slamming?
I guess it’s up to the DM.
I'm just considering the overall effect. If, at 101 feet, it sounds only like a door slamming, then it's hard to believe that it was all that loud at 5 feet :)
I get it, it's magical. So what could be happening is not that 'magic produces a sound at the source, and the sound acts normally thereafter', but rather 'a magical sound that only carries 100' is created'. And in fact, that's kind of a cool notion. A super loud sound that literally cannot be heard from even a single foot past the range.
To me, this just sounded like Dr. Evil. "I know, a super loud sonic attack! It can be heard from...one HUNDRED feet!"
The Thunderclap cantrip says that "You create a burst of thunderous sound that can be heard up to 100 feet away."
A normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away. A normal human speaking voice can in fact be heard over 500' away. 100 is not all that impressive for 'thunder'. Doing damage to 100' would be impressive. Being heard at 100' is...actually really, really quiet.
Where did you find that "a normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away"? I've been searching the books and can't find information as to how far different sounds can be heard.
I was curious, because if the normal range of hearing a normal speaking voice is less than 100' (whether that's realistic or not), then Thunderclap makes a louder noise -- and is therefore noticeable further away -- than regular spellcasting with Verbal components. Having the spell be heard at that range implies that "normal" spells aren't audibly perceivable at that range, but I can't find that information. =/
The Thunderclap cantrip says that "You create a burst of thunderous sound that can be heard up to 100 feet away."
A normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away. A normal human speaking voice can in fact be heard over 500' away. 100 is not all that impressive for 'thunder'. Doing damage to 100' would be impressive. Being heard at 100' is...actually really, really quiet.
Where did you find that "a normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away"? I've been searching the books and can't find information as to how far different sounds can be heard.
I was curious, because if the normal range of hearing a normal speaking voice is less than 100' (whether that's realistic or not), then Thunderclap makes a louder noise -- and is therefore noticeable further away -- than regular spellcasting with Verbal components. Having the spell be heard at that range implies that "normal" spells aren't audibly perceivable at that range, but I can't find that information. =/
That's not a D&D rule, that's a normal world rule :) In a quiet place, I can hear you talking in a normal voice almost 600 feet away. If you're outside in a park, or in traffic (or combat), with other sounds around, the sound of your voice will still reach me, I just might not be able to pick it out, right? But a sound carrying 100 feet is nothing at all.
Just looked it up, normal talking is around 50db at the speaker. A jet taking off and thunder near where the ground stroke is are both about 120db. Ten times louder than a jackhammer. To be unheard at 101 feet, you'd be talking about a whisper.
The Thunderclap cantrip says that "You create a burst of thunderous sound that can be heard up to 100 feet away."
A normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away. A normal human speaking voice can in fact be heard over 500' away. 100 is not all that impressive for 'thunder'. Doing damage to 100' would be impressive. Being heard at 100' is...actually really, really quiet.
Where did you find that "a normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away"? I've been searching the books and can't find information as to how far different sounds can be heard.
I was curious, because if the normal range of hearing a normal speaking voice is less than 100' (whether that's realistic or not), then Thunderclap makes a louder noise -- and is therefore noticeable further away -- than regular spellcasting with Verbal components. Having the spell be heard at that range implies that "normal" spells aren't audibly perceivable at that range, but I can't find that information. =/
That's not a D&D rule, that's a normal world rule :) In a quiet place, I can hear you talking in a normal voice almost 600 feet away. If you're outside in a park, or in traffic (or combat), with other sounds around, the sound of your voice will still reach me, I just might not be able to pick it out, right? But a sound carrying 100 feet is nothing at all.
Just looked it up, normal talking is around 50db at the speaker. A jet taking off and thunder near where the ground stroke is are both about 120db. Ten times louder than a jackhammer. To be unheard at 101 feet, you'd be talking about a whisper.
Perhaps the difference is in the distance from point of origin? If the spell originates from the caster and only travels a small distance (15 ft for thunderwave for 300 ft audible sound and 5 ft for thunderclap and 100 ft audible sound) there are only so many air particles to energize to create the sound. That sort of makes sense from a physics standpoint (even if it's only physics according to jhfffan). Not quite the same as call lightning bringing the lightning from the sky and it's thunder damage which suggests more of an auditory flavor or perhaps a shockwave from the thunder than lightning.
Perhaps the difference is in the distance from point of origin? If the spell originates from the caster and only travels a small distance (15 ft for thunderwave for 300 ft audible sound and 5 ft for thunderclap and 100 ft audible sound) there are only so many air particles to energize to create the sound. That sort of makes sense from a physics standpoint (even if it's only physics according to jhfffan). Not quite the same as call lightning bringing the lightning from the sky and it's thunder damage which suggests more of an auditory flavor or perhaps a shockwave from the thunder than lightning.
I am not a physicist :) But I don't think sound works that way. The energy loss of a sound is algorithmic--if a sound can't be heard at 101 feet, it wasn't very loud at 1 foot. If my normal speaking voice is 'normal' volume at 2 feet, then it can be heard to around 550 feet or so, I think. But if my voice could be heard to 2000 feet, it must have been louder at 2 feet as well. I don't think there's any way to escape that. Anything called a 'thunderclap' that can't be heard at 101 feet isn't as loud as my normal speaking voice. :/
Again, unless you bring in magic, and say that the magic is what is propagating out, creating the sound, and not spreading past 100 feet, thus magically stopping the sound from being heard past there. Kinda cool. but an ad hoc explanation :)
I'm not a physicist either, hence my physics according to me comment, plus I was thinking of lightning when I was thinking of that part and didn't reread after I transitioned to call lightning and remembered both were thunder damage instead.
It could still work(ish) if it's just loud enough within 100-300 ft (per whichever spell) to make creatures think enough about it to want to investigate. Otherwise, the magical aspect that you suggest would certainly be a logical explanation.
Perhaps the difference is in the distance from point of origin? If the spell originates from the caster and only travels a small distance (15 ft for thunderwave for 300 ft audible sound and 5 ft for thunderclap and 100 ft audible sound) there are only so many air particles to energize to create the sound. That sort of makes sense from a physics standpoint (even if it's only physics according to jhfffan). Not quite the same as call lightning bringing the lightning from the sky and it's thunder damage which suggests more of an auditory flavor or perhaps a shockwave from the thunder than lightning.
I am not a physicist :) But I don't think sound works that way. The energy loss of a sound is algorithmic--if a sound can't be heard at 101 feet, it wasn't very loud at 1 foot. If my normal speaking voice is 'normal' volume at 2 feet, then it can be heard to around 550 feet or so, I think. But if my voice could be heard to 2000 feet, it must have been louder at 2 feet as well. I don't think there's any way to escape that. Anything called a 'thunderclap' that can't be heard at 101 feet isn't as loud as my normal speaking voice. :/
Again, unless you bring in magic, and say that the magic is what is propagating out, creating the sound, and not spreading past 100 feet, thus magically stopping the sound from being heard past there. Kinda cool. but an ad hoc explanation :)
HERO System does this right. (Well, from a realism point of view.) Things don't have a range at which they can be perceived (this includes hearing), but rather a penalty to the roll based on range, with each doubling of range adding a cumulative -2 (I think -2, in any case, it was a constant), which models the logarithmic (I think you meant logarithmic, which is correct!) drop in perceivability of sound relative to distance. (I'm not a physicist, either, but I am an engineer!)
Perhaps the difference is in the distance from point of origin? If the spell originates from the caster and only travels a small distance (15 ft for thunderwave for 300 ft audible sound and 5 ft for thunderclap and 100 ft audible sound) there are only so many air particles to energize to create the sound. That sort of makes sense from a physics standpoint (even if it's only physics according to jhfffan). Not quite the same as call lightning bringing the lightning from the sky and it's thunder damage which suggests more of an auditory flavor or perhaps a shockwave from the thunder than lightning.
I am not a physicist :) But I don't think sound works that way. The energy loss of a sound is algorithmic--if a sound can't be heard at 101 feet, it wasn't very loud at 1 foot. If my normal speaking voice is 'normal' volume at 2 feet, then it can be heard to around 550 feet or so, I think. But if my voice could be heard to 2000 feet, it must have been louder at 2 feet as well. I don't think there's any way to escape that. Anything called a 'thunderclap' that can't be heard at 101 feet isn't as loud as my normal speaking voice. :/
Again, unless you bring in magic, and say that the magic is what is propagating out, creating the sound, and not spreading past 100 feet, thus magically stopping the sound from being heard past there. Kinda cool. but an ad hoc explanation :)
HERO System does this right. (Well, from a realism point of view.) Things don't have a range at which they can be perceived (this includes hearing), but rather a penalty to the roll based on range, with each doubling of range adding a cumulative -2 (I think -2, in any case, it was a constant), which models the logarithmic (I think you meant logarithmic, which is correct!) drop in perceivability of sound relative to distance. (I'm not a physicist, either, but I am an engineer!)
I did indeed mean log instead of al, thanks for catching that :) My math-fu has been rusty for many years now.
What if the thunder was created in a way that the sound waves create resonance within the target but the sound waves tend to cancel themselves out away from the target. Also the sound waves could be at least partially beyond the normal range of hearing.
What if the thunder was created in a way that the sound waves create resonance within the target but the sound waves tend to cancel themselves out away from the target. Also the sound waves could be at least partially beyond the normal range of hearing.
Not a bad explanation. I mean, if there are already attempts to make focused sound cannons with technology, the ability to focus/localize sound with magic is also reasonable. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a super loud sound that just stops at a certain range. You're in a big battle, and suddenly a circle of people just to your left grab their heads and drop to the ground, while you don't hear a thing and have no idea what happened.
Plus, a better spell design for adventuring in a dungeon where you don't want to announce to the rest of the critters that you are adventuring.
Plus, a better spell design for adventuring in a dungeon where you don't want to announce to the rest of the critters that you are adventuring.
This is an interesting perspective since I'd always considered that the sound would carry a little further in an inside dungeon, barring features that would nullify the sound (thick walls, heavy drapes, significant levels of sound like running water) stuff like that.
Plus, a better spell design for adventuring in a dungeon where you don't want to announce to the rest of the critters that you are adventuring.
This is an interesting perspective since I'd always considered that the sound would carry a little further in an inside dungeon, barring features that would nullify the sound (thick walls, heavy drapes, significant levels of sound like running water) stuff like that.
I always did too, but maybe it's like the Cones of Silence.
The spell does specify that the sound can be heard 'up to' 100 feet, and says nothing about 101+ feet.
I think the sound of Thunderclap is mainly for "balance" reasons to determine how much "aggro" you might pull. If an entire dungeon could hear your Thunderclap it is detrimental to use it. Similarly the game doesn't have an easy way to determine how sound travels. In a closed dungeon the sound will travel farther than in an open forest with many surfaces to absorb the sound waves. So for ease to apply it is just capped at 100 feet, moving on.
Another slightly off-topic question: What is the nature and difference between Lightning and Thunder damage? If Thunder is meant as concussive damage, isn't it just Force damage?
I think the sound of Thunderclap is mainly for "balance" reasons to determine how much "aggro" you might pull. If an entire dungeon could hear your Thunderclap it is detrimental to use it. Similarly the game doesn't have an easy way to determine how sound travels. In a closed dungeon the sound will travel farther than in an open forest with many surfaces to absorb the sound waves. So for ease to apply it is just capped at 100 feet, moving on.
Another slightly off-topic question: What is the nature and difference between Lightning and Thunder damage? If Thunder is meant as concussive damage, isn't it just Force damage?
Yeah it is meainly to indicate that the spell is audible up to 100 feet away, which as the OP had said is not that loud when you refer to noise range found in The Dungeon Master Screen suggesting that when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft).
As for the difference between Lightning and Thunder damage, think of it as electrical vs sonic basically. Lightnong as opposed to concussive burst of sound, which is different than force damage.
But isn't sonic just another way to describe concussive energy? And force damage is concussive energy but in the way that a shockwave works as opposed to a bludgeoning weapon like a hammer. I just found the damage type to be weird and somewhat superfluous, that's all.
Funny enough I actually do have a degree in physics - here's my take: big loud sound like magic drum hurts near it.
Joking aside, I like the idea of the magic being a shockwave that is something like *sound made form* in that it's not necessarily loud, but just a way of magic transmission of energy. And I think it's a neat idea that while being heard from 100ft isn't exactly a big deal, changing the context to be that it's ALWAYS heard can change the dynamic. Verbal components of other spells could be muffled or whispered, but no matter what happens (even if you're in the middle of a very loud manufacturing factory) everyone within 100ft will hear the spell.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
But isn't sonic just another way to describe concussive energy? And force damage is concussive energy but in the way that a shockwave works as opposed to a bludgeoning weapon like a hammer. I just found the damage type to be weird and somewhat superfluous, that's all.
Yes, IRL “force” is simply M * A, but in D&D it’s more the catch-all for “magical” damage that doesn’t fit elsewhere. You could say Thunder is more about the idea of vibrational damage as opposed to a single strike, or you could just remember MST3K principle and not overthink the nuances.
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The Thunderclap cantrip says that "You create a burst of thunderous sound that can be heard up to 100 feet away."
A normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away. A normal human speaking voice can in fact be heard over 500' away. 100 is not all that impressive for 'thunder'. Doing damage to 100' would be impressive. Being heard at 100' is...actually really, really quiet.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I guess they are saying, “use this spell in a dungeon and any creatures within 100’ will hear it and won’t be surprised”. Or maybe, “use this spell in a town and people (guards) within 100’ will investigate”.
A creature at 101’ just assumes it’s natural thunder or a door slamming?
I guess it’s up to the DM.
I agree 1oo feet for a clap of thunder to be heard isn't really impressive. Even a hundred yards is only the length of a football field. Actual thunderclaps can be heard for miles.
I'm just considering the overall effect. If, at 101 feet, it sounds only like a door slamming, then it's hard to believe that it was all that loud at 5 feet :)
I get it, it's magical. So what could be happening is not that 'magic produces a sound at the source, and the sound acts normally thereafter', but rather 'a magical sound that only carries 100' is created'. And in fact, that's kind of a cool notion. A super loud sound that literally cannot be heard from even a single foot past the range.
To me, this just sounded like Dr. Evil. "I know, a super loud sonic attack! It can be heard from...one HUNDRED feet!"
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Where did you find that "a normal speaking voice can be heard 100 feet away"? I've been searching the books and can't find information as to how far different sounds can be heard.
I was curious, because if the normal range of hearing a normal speaking voice is less than 100' (whether that's realistic or not), then Thunderclap makes a louder noise -- and is therefore noticeable further away -- than regular spellcasting with Verbal components. Having the spell be heard at that range implies that "normal" spells aren't audibly perceivable at that range, but I can't find that information. =/
That's not a D&D rule, that's a normal world rule :) In a quiet place, I can hear you talking in a normal voice almost 600 feet away. If you're outside in a park, or in traffic (or combat), with other sounds around, the sound of your voice will still reach me, I just might not be able to pick it out, right? But a sound carrying 100 feet is nothing at all.
Just looked it up, normal talking is around 50db at the speaker. A jet taking off and thunder near where the ground stroke is are both about 120db. Ten times louder than a jackhammer. To be unheard at 101 feet, you'd be talking about a whisper.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Perhaps the difference is in the distance from point of origin? If the spell originates from the caster and only travels a small distance (15 ft for thunderwave for 300 ft audible sound and 5 ft for thunderclap and 100 ft audible sound) there are only so many air particles to energize to create the sound. That sort of makes sense from a physics standpoint (even if it's only physics according to jhfffan). Not quite the same as call lightning bringing the lightning from the sky and it's thunder damage which suggests more of an auditory flavor or perhaps a shockwave from the thunder than lightning.
I am not a physicist :) But I don't think sound works that way. The energy loss of a sound is algorithmic--if a sound can't be heard at 101 feet, it wasn't very loud at 1 foot. If my normal speaking voice is 'normal' volume at 2 feet, then it can be heard to around 550 feet or so, I think. But if my voice could be heard to 2000 feet, it must have been louder at 2 feet as well. I don't think there's any way to escape that. Anything called a 'thunderclap' that can't be heard at 101 feet isn't as loud as my normal speaking voice. :/
Again, unless you bring in magic, and say that the magic is what is propagating out, creating the sound, and not spreading past 100 feet, thus magically stopping the sound from being heard past there. Kinda cool. but an ad hoc explanation :)
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I'm not a physicist either, hence my physics according to me comment, plus I was thinking of lightning when I was thinking of that part and didn't reread after I transitioned to call lightning and remembered both were thunder damage instead.
It could still work(ish) if it's just loud enough within 100-300 ft (per whichever spell) to make creatures think enough about it to want to investigate. Otherwise, the magical aspect that you suggest would certainly be a logical explanation.
HERO System does this right. (Well, from a realism point of view.) Things don't have a range at which they can be perceived (this includes hearing), but rather a penalty to the roll based on range, with each doubling of range adding a cumulative -2 (I think -2, in any case, it was a constant), which models the logarithmic (I think you meant logarithmic, which is correct!) drop in perceivability of sound relative to distance. (I'm not a physicist, either, but I am an engineer!)
I did indeed mean log instead of al, thanks for catching that :) My math-fu has been rusty for many years now.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
What if the thunder was created in a way that the sound waves create resonance within the target but the sound waves tend to cancel themselves out away from the target. Also the sound waves could be at least partially beyond the normal range of hearing.
Not a bad explanation. I mean, if there are already attempts to make focused sound cannons with technology, the ability to focus/localize sound with magic is also reasonable. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a super loud sound that just stops at a certain range. You're in a big battle, and suddenly a circle of people just to your left grab their heads and drop to the ground, while you don't hear a thing and have no idea what happened.
Plus, a better spell design for adventuring in a dungeon where you don't want to announce to the rest of the critters that you are adventuring.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
This is an interesting perspective since I'd always considered that the sound would carry a little further in an inside dungeon, barring features that would nullify the sound (thick walls, heavy drapes, significant levels of sound like running water) stuff like that.
I always did too, but maybe it's like the Cones of Silence.
The spell does specify that the sound can be heard 'up to' 100 feet, and says nothing about 101+ feet.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I think the sound of Thunderclap is mainly for "balance" reasons to determine how much "aggro" you might pull. If an entire dungeon could hear your Thunderclap it is detrimental to use it. Similarly the game doesn't have an easy way to determine how sound travels. In a closed dungeon the sound will travel farther than in an open forest with many surfaces to absorb the sound waves. So for ease to apply it is just capped at 100 feet, moving on.
Another slightly off-topic question: What is the nature and difference between Lightning and Thunder damage? If Thunder is meant as concussive damage, isn't it just Force damage?
Yeah it is meainly to indicate that the spell is audible up to 100 feet away, which as the OP had said is not that loud when you refer to noise range found in The Dungeon Master Screen suggesting that when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft).
As for the difference between Lightning and Thunder damage, think of it as electrical vs sonic basically. Lightnong as opposed to concussive burst of sound, which is different than force damage.
But isn't sonic just another way to describe concussive energy? And force damage is concussive energy but in the way that a shockwave works as opposed to a bludgeoning weapon like a hammer. I just found the damage type to be weird and somewhat superfluous, that's all.
Funny enough I actually do have a degree in physics - here's my take: big loud sound like magic drum hurts near it.
Joking aside, I like the idea of the magic being a shockwave that is something like *sound made form* in that it's not necessarily loud, but just a way of magic transmission of energy. And I think it's a neat idea that while being heard from 100ft isn't exactly a big deal, changing the context to be that it's ALWAYS heard can change the dynamic. Verbal components of other spells could be muffled or whispered, but no matter what happens (even if you're in the middle of a very loud manufacturing factory) everyone within 100ft will hear the spell.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yes, IRL “force” is simply M * A, but in D&D it’s more the catch-all for “magical” damage that doesn’t fit elsewhere. You could say Thunder is more about the idea of vibrational damage as opposed to a single strike, or you could just remember MST3K principle and not overthink the nuances.