So I have a problem that I did not foresee and I am not sure what the answer is because it seems like Wizards of the coast is avoiding giving a strait answer. Maybe someone can help me out here.
Aarakocra have beaks, feathers, talons, and wings. Tiefling have horns and tails, Dragonborn have scales, Torles have shells, and Warforged are constructed humanoids (not considered constructs for rules, even though they are.) made of enchanted wood, stone, and steel. Its simply just what they are per the race description.
Warforged also state:
"The typical warforged has a muscular, sexless body shape. Some warforged ignore the concept of gender entirely, while others adopt a gender identity in emulation of creatures around them."
Warforged Resilience
You were ***created*** to have remarkable fortitude, represented by the following benefits.
You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
You are immune to disease.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
You don’t need to sleep and don’t suffer the effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
So Warforged are created and don't need to breathe... so one could assume they don't have stomachs. They don't breath so they don't have lungs. They might assume a male or female persona but they have no sexual organs. Because why would you build organs they don't need for a creature "The warforged were built to serve and to fight. For most of their existence, warforged had a clearly defined function and were encouraged to focus purely on that role" when those features do not provide function to the warforge as beings created for the functions of war?
There are some good and bad here and role play requirements that come from that. You don't breath so you can't sigh, you don't eat or drink so you can join the party for drinks at the bar, you don't have sexual organs so if the party goes chasing the local bar made or looking for lady favors your not able to engage, and you don't sleep so you don't need your own room in hotels. So you can expect to be kicked out of bars for taking up space and not buying anything, you can expect NPCs to get mad when you can't go out for drinks or when they want to meet in the all too common bar and you might get stuck in a storage closet instead of getting your own room. Or you might just have to wait out side. Sure I signed on for that when I decided to play a warforged. So I role with it an play that. If I am bought drinks I give it to another party member so I am not rude by not excepting gifted drink but I will never be drunk.
It is also completely reasonable for Heat metal spell to effect me directly per the spells description "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range" as I am manufactured with metal per the race description. Creatures like Rust Monster's can smell me in perfect dark and know where I am since I am metal and I would take -1 to damage to unarmed strikes from the "rust metal" passive and "Antennae" will reduce my warforge Integrated Protection Composite Plating (armor) to 10 + dex down from 13 and I am going to have a lot harder time fixing it because I can't just find a black smith, I need an artificer and the equivalent of major surgery and can't wear or replace armor until that happens.
My GM also, provides inspiration dice for quality life investments. Eating high quality food, Drinking expensive drinks, staying in a nice hotel with a great bed, going to a bath house, getting lady favors, etc are all considered roleplay expenses which grant inspiration dice... and I can do none of them, so I will likely never get inspiration in the campaign because their is no way for me to invest meaning full life condition improvement investment. I am okay with that. It makes since. Its part of being a constructed magical humanoid.
Despite all these differences, we roll play them all and recognize as a warforged I am different just like a Tortle has a shell and Tieflling can knock stuff off shelves with their tail, Aarakocra don't have lips and do have wings so they can fly. … Its all cool until we run across a Intellect Devourer and it immediately tries to use "Devour Intellect. The intellect devourer targets one creature it can see within 10 feet of it that has a brain." … So per the race page, a warforge is made entirely of wood, stone, and metal.... it has no brain. Heat metal, rust monsters, and roleplay requirements I am 100% on board with. … but suddenly, fighting this creature that eats brains "as a humanoid you have all the same organs as any humanoid, so the intellect devower tries to eat your brain" …. what what?!?! The intellect devourer is and intelligent creature (INT12) with other attacks, but what I really believe is happening is that my level 1 ranger warforge is being targeted for death by a CR2 intellect deovour and the GM has decided its going to use "Body Thief" eat out my brain and take over my body letting the GM play my character. … But I have not brain. I have not organs. I have stone with steel and wood for head. Why am I required and expected to roleplay every negative and deal with being a warforge as a warforge does but then suddenly that is suspended and humanoid means I have organs!?!?! The argument is that "warforged are living humanoids" however the Monster Manual definition of humanoid is on page 7 is: "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans and a tremendous variety of other species. They have language and culture, few if any innate magical abilities (though most humanoids can learn spellcasting), and a bipedal form. The most common humanoid races are the ones most suitable as player characters: humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings. Almost as numerous but far more savage and brutal, and almost uniformly evil, are the races of goblinoids (gol:ilins, hobgoblins, and bugbears), orcs, gnolls, lizardfolk, and kobolds. A variety of humanoids appear throughout this book, but the races detailed in the Player's Handbook- with the exception of drow-are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you·can use to make various members of those races." … no where does it say that humanoids have all the same organs if so Tieflings can't have tails, Aarakocra wings, or Tortles Shells. The intellect devouer specifcilly calls out a an organ that a warforge that specificly says its made of wood, stone, and steel … does not have. There is no indication of anything but an enchanted rock for a head. It has intellect and it has mind so it can be mind controlled... etc. If I need and intellect save that fine, If I have need to resist dominate person with a wisdom save because I have a mind that's fine. There are 2 monster in all of D&D that I know of that attack specific organs. TheIntellect Devourer and the Mind Flayer. You might run across one or two of those in a campaign and you when you do they have other attacks (at level 1 I have 12 hp and the Intellect Devourer's claw attack does 2d4+2 damage, it can almost one shot me and the mind flayer has dominate monster , tendrils for 2d10+4 damage, and Mind Blast which does 22 damage and stuns me for 1 minute.) and their are plenty of other targets. Considering how easy it is for the GM to have enemies with heat metal, rust monsters, or just attack me in the VERY rare case of running across these two monsters, why is it that their is this need to SUDDENLY SUSPEND ROLEPLAY and awareness of what I am in a 1984 double think that make the head spin. I am BUILT of stone and steel , don't need nourishment to keep any part of me alive, but I have a soft squishy brain like all the other races … why? It doesn't say that a warforge is "made of wood, stone, and steel with a soft squisy brain" it also does say or even imply that humanoid bipedal forms have the organs or all the other ones that don't would not exist. Warforge Integrated Protection basely says warforged are covered with armor plates already showing that they are not biologically identical to other races. So why do these two monster get to break roleplay and the existence of warforged into something else, like they are temperately made human.... it is the most weird, most immersion breaking, hottest debate we have ever had at our table, with no actual answer from Jeremy Crawford in the rules as written and for what because they want them to eat every players brains instead of using their other attacks and killing instead? My party killed the intellect devourer the round it jumped on me. Its not that it was a threat, its the existential argument about what is a warforged in D&D now that its no longer a construct like previous editions even thought it was constructed. I hope I never run across another mind flayer or intellect devourer in the campaign and it never comes up again... but I am afraid the effects of the debate and lack of answer are far impacting.... if I am made of stone and metal but oddly have organs, why is it I don't eat, sleep, drink, or breath? Am I a living person dissected into a construct? That's not the race I thought I was playing, its not the player choice I made, and what I am is being changed after roleplaying and trying to be an interesting character because the rules have moved from specific (you were built of metal, wood, and stone) > general (mind flayers & intellect devours eat your brains) … to... specific (you were built of metal, wood, and stone) < general (mind flayers & intellect devours eat your brains) because Wizards of the coasts like mind flayers better than clear rules on a pre-existing and defined race in D&D that were preciously clearly constructs and this was not a problem.
I put a lot out there, in this rant of confusion. Seriously why is a warforged considered organinc like all the other races when it comes only to negative effects and these two specific monster? What am I missing that makes it so important they a warforged just be enchanted wood, steal, and stone as described? Is the ability for GM to eath every single characters brain with these specific two monsters so important? If so why? Because it really didn't change the threat of the encounter, just the angry debate that followed. Help me out here with what I am sure to be a lot of hate message... but messages hopefully with well thought out reasoning that can help me wrap my head around what is driving me insane and breaking my character. … please help me...
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Firstly, please never use the phrase "lady favors" again.
Next, you list a bunch of roleplay requirements which don't, in fact, exist. Warforged don't *need* to eat, drink, sleep or breathe, but that doesn't mean you can't partake of pleasures in life. You can grind foodstuffs in your mouth-hole and analyse how the chemicals interact with your darkwood organic sensor nodes, or sample beverages for their interesting odours and sensations. You can decide that your character likes to take its sentries rest lying on a feather bed to better connect with the humanoid experience. You can speak, so you can equally emit a sigh sound or any other vocalisation or sign of emotion that you have learned to replicate. Maybe your race does not reproduce sexually, but there's no reason you couldn't admire the aesthetics of another being's form, and desire to bring them pleasure. Perhaps it is a pleasurable experience to open your central armor plates and have another being gently manipulate your darkwood core fibres? Who knows the secrets of such a creature? You were created for some old war, but those times are gone now and it is up to you to find your own purpose, and your own pleasure.
Then, to the other rules of spells and monsters. Nothing in the rules demands that you should suffer unusual effects from either heat metal or a rust monster, but if your DM has ruled and you accept it then all is fine. Likewise the rules don't say whether you have a "brain" or not. Some of your components are organic. You aren't immune to psychic damage, so there is something brain-like in there. Can a brain be formed of magic wood? Does a dryad have a brain? Does a myconid? I don't know. The rules don't say, and in such situations it is by definition the DM's call. I, like your DM, would default to not granting your character immunity to any effect that the rules don't already grant you. I don't think there's need to assume some sort of conspiracy to kill or weaken your character or the Warforged race. I suspect they decided the race should be humanoid (not construct) for the same reason the centaurs and minotaur races are humanoid not monstrosity, and no races are sizes other than medium or small - it is just easier. The rules get messy otherwise.
So first I would like to point out that Warforged "don't need to" eat, drink, breath, or sleep, not that they "can't." I like playing a Warforged and I treat it as anything ingested is transmuted into energy. This way a Warforged can drink a healing potion or otherwise role play being human. And a Rust Monster can't rust a Warforged because they are not a "weapon" or an "object," they are a creature, and rust monsters can't rust a metal creature. Same thing with heat metal.
Similarly, Warforged have a mechanical equivalent for most major organs: muscles, nerves, veins, heart, and brain. While these are not be organic and wouldn't be appetizing to a creature that eats them for physical nourishment, they can be treated the same as organic for magical effects.
I hope this helps from one Warforged player to another. And when in doubt, just treat it as a normal humanoid as long as it doesnt contradict any of your race features.
Firstly, please never use the phrase "lady favors" again.
Next, you list a bunch of roleplay requirements which don't, in fact, exist. Warforged don't *need* to eat, drink, sleep or breathe, but that doesn't mean you can't partake of pleasures in life. You can grind foodstuffs in your mouth-hole and analyse how the chemicals interact with your darkwood organic sensor nodes, or sample beverages for their interesting odours and sensations. You can decide that your character likes to take its sentries rest lying on a feather bed to better connect with the humanoid experience. You can speak, so you can equally emit a sigh sound or any other vocalisation or sign of emotion that you have learned to replicate. Maybe your race does not reproduce sexually, but there's no reason you couldn't admire the aesthetics of another being's form, and desire to bring them pleasure. Perhaps it is a pleasurable experience to open your central armor plates and have another being gently manipulate your darkwood core fibres? Who knows the secrets of such a creature? You were created for some old war, but those times are gone now and it is up to you to find your own purpose, and your own pleasure.
Then, to the other rules of spells and monsters. Nothing in the rules demands that you should suffer unusual effects from either heat metal or a rust monster, but if your DM has ruled and you accept it then all is fine. Likewise the rules don't say whether you have a "brain" or not. Some of your components are organic. You aren't immune to psychic damage, so there is something brain-like in there. Can a brain be formed of magic wood? Does a dryad have a brain? Does a myconid? I don't know. The rules don't say, and in such situations it is by definition the DM's call. I, like your DM, would default to not granting your character immunity to any effect that the rules don't already grant you. I don't think there's need to assume some sort of conspiracy to kill or weaken your character or the Warforged race. I suspect they decided the race should be humanoid (not construct) for the same reason the centaurs and minotaur races are humanoid not monstrosity, and no races are sizes other than medium or small - it is just easier. The rules get messy otherwise.
Decent reply, So the jest of this it that I was rolling a playing. My GM has taken the stance that my role play based on my interpretation of the race based on what I took from the race depiction and abilities, is wrong buy his opinion. So your saying its fine for him to post his personality changes on my PC against my will and that if he his never giving me inspiration because I can enjoy them but I can't actually benefit from them nourishment, a soft bed will not help me rest better, etc … all rules that hurt me only that's a GM call I should just live with it. That even the rare case of where I it might be beneficial with 2 monsters of the all of D&D, he is write in your eyes, as you agree he should not allow specific over general because that's messy? … its kind of a "suck it up" answer, not saying your wrong but what is "messy" about warfoged having rocks and metal heads and not having so have their brain picked out by these 2 very specific monsters? Is their ANY other way that not having organs is "messy" or impactful to the game?
As far as the attempt and my characters life that was real, but largely unrelated. My GM has tried to kill my characters in the past after disagreements of me roleplaying my character wrong. In this case I made a Goblin Hunter Warforge that was designed to go hunt the in the sewers of the town in order to free the towns guard and allow greater support for the city in the time of the war of which the warforge were created. … So we start the campaign ...end up in the sewer, run across some goblins, and I declare I am going to sneak around the back and try to kill them... I turn the corner and the party just leave me, taking the light and leaving me in the dark. The GM wanted me to forget what I was doing and follow the party, I had one story hook for the character that I hunt goblins in the sewer and here I was able to do so and not risk or hurt the party. When strongly hinted I should ignore my character goals and return to the party and I chose to hunt the goblins for a few more rounds, I was captured (with out save or opportunity to fight and prostrated before my party as a captive). I was delivered unconscious, without save, and on the first turn of finding me an intellect devour move not to them but to me and had a save vs a CR2 monster or my level 1 character dies roll. I saved the party kills it. … I understood the situation. No problem. Angry GM wanted to kill me but at least I got a role. Last time something like this happened he slit my character throat in front of the party with no save. … I am okay with an angry GM killing my character more than I am okay with him overriding my role play. If the intellect devour wanted to use its 2d4+2 attach on an unconscious character for advantage to hit and an auto crit... I am fine with that. But the idea I am forced to have a brain, forced to have an organ that even you said no rules says I have or don't seems like taking away the only player agency a player has being to control who their character is and what they do. Turning my warforged in to a synthetic human with a brain to make a point of killing me when options of killing me without doing that seems like a violation of that one part I control. It seems to me that while rules are rules, player characters creation should be left to the player as long as its reasonable with the rules and doesn't break the game. Having the mosters capture and try to kill me is the GMs job and right, but altering a player character against there wishes just to you can use a specific ability which lets him violate agency by then taking control of my PC as an NPC seems like a line that should not be crossed.
So again... what is "messy" about warfoged having rocks and metal heads and not having so have their brain picked out by these 2 very specific monsters? What is game braking about it? Isn't the warforge and what it means to me part of the character design and the only player agency I get? If its not a given that a PC would have a tail or not have tail, or that tieflings horns point back or down, those are player agency aspects of character creation and roleplay choices, any player character should have to my mind. So If you can explain why a player should not have the agency of depicting the roleplay characteristics and physical design of the character within the known rules (made of wood, steel, and stone) and how that is messy... please elaborate.... I think this clarifies my problem but doesn't resolve it right now.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
So first I would like to point out that Warforged "don't need to" eat, drink, breath, or sleep, not that they "can't." I like playing a Warforged and I treat it as anything ingested is transmuted into energy. This way a Warforged can drink a healing potion or otherwise role play being human. And a Rust Monster can't rust a Warforged because they are not a "weapon" or an "object," they are a creature, and rust monsters can't rust a metal creature. Same thing with heat metal.
Character roleplay is subjective, I role play it my way and you role play it yours as is the right of players creating characters (which is my fist point). GM controls monster and rules of spells in the world, if they GM says they do they do because that's what GM do. That's not problem, and my second point.
Similarly, Warforged have a mechanical equivalent for most major organs: muscles, nerves, veins, heart, and brain. While these are not be organic and wouldn't be appetizing to a creature that eats them for physical nourishment, they can be treated the same as organic for magical effects.
That's not in any rules. your designing your character how you want to do this. Are you saying I can't do the same? I have to play your way or my roleplay / fun is wrong? What if I want an enchant shadow fel gate key as my heart and I am enchanted stone, steel, and wood otherwise, why can't I do that with my character? (that's what I did, and the core is how I explain my gloom stalker power at level 3.
I hope this helps from one Warforged player to another. And when in doubt, just treat it as a normal humanoid as long as it doesnt contradict any of your race features.
[Edit]Ah, sniped by Correon.
Please understand, I do appreciate your input from a warforge player to a warforge player. My point is what is "normal humanoid" in D&D when the rules only say that means bipedal and the you have bird people with wing arms, cat, people, shifers, totals with armored shells, half demon tieflings with hornes an tails? "normal humanoid" to me only means that as a bipedal with 2 arms, 2 legs, a head, 2 hands, 2 feet, a torso, and a waste. It implies nothing about organ. Centaurs are considered "humanoid" and they don't even follow those rules... do they have heart in the horse half or the "human torso" or both? since the rules do not say.... shouldn't the player making that character decide? Isn't that a Player character choice? The GM controls everything else... but the player character is the only agency a player really has. At what point do GMs get to override that? I asked before the game If playing a warforge was going to be a problem I gave it a shadow fel key stone core... not a heart... and I even said "unknown to the warforge, eath time it enters the shadow fel a random effect can happen, role 1d20, on a 20 the warforge gains some power of the GM desecration, on a 1 it explodes an the waforge is utterly destroyed and can not be revived." Why? character choice. Maybe we never enter the shadow fel and it doesn't matter, maybe we do several time and I explode. Sure, the power would get... that's me allowing for something out side the rules possibly extra under special conditions. … so GM call. Me having organs and how my war forge is built… seems like a player agency to me. If I am wrong, why? How does this break D&D?
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I was just trying to clarify any rules confusion, not criticize any role play choices.
As for where player jurisdiction ends and DM jurisdiction begins: you can control your character's choices, the DM tells you what its biology is. You probably already knew that at some level, because you asked the DM about the special core.
If the DM decides to go against the rules (like being able to rust and heat as if you are not a creature), they should tell you ahead of time and stick to it (by not targeting you with effects that only effect creatures).
It sounds to me like there are two separate issues here:
Lack of a common agreement between you and your DM on how the rules for the Warforged race work in the campaign you are playing.
Disagreement between yourself and the DM on how the game should be played.
I believe that neither of these things can be resolved by others on internet forums and that the only sensible course of action is for you and the DM to sit down and talk this through.
If you're able to do that in a non-confrontational manner, then I expect the two of you can find common ground and will both enjoy your D&D games more.
It sounds to me like there are two separate issues here:
Lack of a common agreement between you and your DM on how the rules for the Warforged race work in the campaign you are playing.
Disagreement between yourself and the DM on how the game should be played.
I believe that neither of these things can be resolved by others on internet forums and that the only sensible course of action is for you and the DM to sit down and talk this through.
If you're able to do that in a non-confrontational manner, then I expect the two of you can find common ground and will both enjoy your D&D games more.
Thank you all for some perspective.
I came here to clear my head and get an outside view. I believe these last couple of posts did just that. I kind of needed to dig into it because no one in my group was even giving me the light of day and the GM resorted to name calling because I wanted to play my characters actions differently than he wanted me to play my character actions. I agree your right on it being to points not one. Which might be why I have had so much trouble wrapping my head around it. It seems like #1 should be a small thing, it only matters with 2 monsters in the whole game. The #2 problem is that my GM doesn't see me as a player but as a voiced NPC for his real friends so he lets and wants them to play things out but me he just wants to do what he says or he kills my character. I would say I could fix my problem by just playing a character of a differenet race, but I have played 6 characters with this GM and everyone has had a problem and everyone has been targeted for death. The other players confirmed I was targeted for death by the GM and even to active actions to stop it a few times. Coming here was intended to clear my head so that when me and my GM talked/played again I would know where the real problem was and be prepared to discuss it in as "non-confrontational manner" as I could getting out my frustration here and working through it so I can be calm talking to him.
… That was my goal. …but honestly … I think my GM does treat me like a player or a friend, and I think based of DxJxC's comments I maybe jaded constantly having to fight to just be a character I want to play even though I can see he is right that the GM has the right to tell me what the rules for the Warforge is in this Campaign and I did acknowledge that in having approve the character first. At the same time I did that because he has a requirement that me and another player (both the players that are not old friends he looks for outside of D&D) submit character before every game to check for "problems" then he approves them and something 100% of the time ends up being a problem later. … I don't know how not to be a GMs NPC and I think my desire to fight for the warforged trait is not because its important but because this happens every character I make, a few sessions in he wants me to change something and bend it to his direction while not requiring this of this old friends. I feel like am being constantly bullied so even though its a stupid argument I want to push back. … I am trying to convince my mind to let it go. … I am wandering if he is just too controlling and I am just to jaded to let it go at this point and I should just apologize for arguing and bow out of his game respectfully. … I am torn because basically his group is mostly friends of 3 years and I did try to run a game with them but without him (at least at a start until I found my feet as GM) then they invited him and he kept cutting me off to force his own actions. … I don't know if there is something I can do here or if my only option is to leave. If I leave, I have no local options to play D&D as an older person in a foreign country where English is not the primary language and new groups are generally players 20 years younger with a very different mind set, playing 7 days and many hours and I just can't keep up. I have a wife responsibilities.
If someone has some objective input it apricated but mainly this post did what I needed and now I have to figure out how to move forward or if that is possible.
Edit: I did calmly speak to my GM, he basically said his table is a not a joint table he runs it his way and if I didn't like it I could leave. He has said so before and told him perhaps that's best for now, if I am having difficulty letting this small thing go it's likely going to get worse. So we made a peaceful separation him being my GM but both agreed we could still hangout and play video games etc as friends. Sad now thought, because I don't have a steady D&D game anymore. But thanks again for helping me see I was... and I guess still am losing my head a bit and need to step back until I can get over little things again.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I think it's been said already, but I'd like to throw my thoughts in on this.
To me it seems like you have a very strong head canon about how Warforged should be. I understand this, because I have a lot of strong opinions on how different races should act and interact with others. The issue here is that your role play, however good it is, seems to be based on a bunch of rules that you set for yourself. I'm all for imposing disadvantages on yourself for the sake of role play, but you do have to realize that that is what it is. You are placing them on yourself. If you know the rules for gaining inspiration in the game, and decide to impose some role play rules that make it impossible for you to benefit, then that is on you. You can't expect the DM to change his rulings just because they don't work in your favor.
That being said, based on your description, he does kind of seem like a dick. The game is meant to be played together, so that everyone can have fun. It's the DMs job to work so that everyone is having fun.
Sorry to necro this topic, but I had to vent a bit after reading all this.
Because nobody said so directly enough. Your (ex) DM is just a bad DM and an *******. There is just no excuse for a DM to force a player, how to play his character. The DM has the power over the whole world, except the player characters. If a DM wants power over PCs, then he shouldn't DM, but write a book. If i were one of the other players at the table, I would gladly tell the DM, to stop being such an *******, or I would leave.
I'd say nobody is blameless in this exchange. The DM isn't necessarily wrong, but he's doing in the worst possible way and that ends up putting blame on him. Meanwhile, OP is trying to play Dark Souls D&D when nobody else is, and then is kinda throwing a tantrum when he realizes he's playing a different game than everyone else and expects them to change.
I'd say nobody is blameless in this exchange. The DM isn't necessarily wrong, but he's doing in the worst possible way and that ends up putting blame on him. Meanwhile, OP is trying to play Dark Souls D&D when nobody else is, and then is kinda throwing a tantrum when he realizes he's playing a different game than everyone else and expects them to change.
yeah but it is the DM's responsibility to communicate to players how things work on his table. If a DM is incabable of that, he failed. If a player is incabable of listening, then it is the DM's responsibility to politly kick the player from the table. just making it unconfortable for the player to be there, puts the player in the most shitty situation possible. He can either leave and look like the grumpy cat, or he stays, and feels bullied the whole time. Thats why the DM is responsible to talk to the player.
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So I have a problem that I did not foresee and I am not sure what the answer is because it seems like Wizards of the coast is avoiding giving a strait answer. Maybe someone can help me out here.
Aarakocra have beaks, feathers, talons, and wings. Tiefling have horns and tails, Dragonborn have scales, Torles have shells, and Warforged are constructed humanoids (not considered constructs for rules, even though they are.) made of enchanted wood, stone, and steel. Its simply just what they are per the race description.
Warforged also state:
"The typical warforged has a muscular, sexless body shape. Some warforged ignore the concept of gender entirely, while others adopt a gender identity in emulation of creatures around them."
Warforged Resilience
You were ***created*** to have remarkable fortitude, represented by the following benefits.
So Warforged are created and don't need to breathe... so one could assume they don't have stomachs. They don't breath so they don't have lungs. They might assume a male or female persona but they have no sexual organs. Because why would you build organs they don't need for a creature "The warforged were built to serve and to fight. For most of their existence, warforged had a clearly defined function and were encouraged to focus purely on that role" when those features do not provide function to the warforge as beings created for the functions of war?
There are some good and bad here and role play requirements that come from that. You don't breath so you can't sigh, you don't eat or drink so you can join the party for drinks at the bar, you don't have sexual organs so if the party goes chasing the local bar made or looking for lady favors your not able to engage, and you don't sleep so you don't need your own room in hotels. So you can expect to be kicked out of bars for taking up space and not buying anything, you can expect NPCs to get mad when you can't go out for drinks or when they want to meet in the all too common bar and you might get stuck in a storage closet instead of getting your own room. Or you might just have to wait out side. Sure I signed on for that when I decided to play a warforged. So I role with it an play that. If I am bought drinks I give it to another party member so I am not rude by not excepting gifted drink but I will never be drunk.
It is also completely reasonable for Heat metal spell to effect me directly per the spells description "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range" as I am manufactured with metal per the race description. Creatures like Rust Monster's can smell me in perfect dark and know where I am since I am metal and I would take -1 to damage to unarmed strikes from the "rust metal" passive and "Antennae" will reduce my warforge Integrated Protection Composite Plating (armor) to 10 + dex down from 13 and I am going to have a lot harder time fixing it because I can't just find a black smith, I need an artificer and the equivalent of major surgery and can't wear or replace armor until that happens.
My GM also, provides inspiration dice for quality life investments. Eating high quality food, Drinking expensive drinks, staying in a nice hotel with a great bed, going to a bath house, getting lady favors, etc are all considered roleplay expenses which grant inspiration dice... and I can do none of them, so I will likely never get inspiration in the campaign because their is no way for me to invest meaning full life condition improvement investment. I am okay with that. It makes since. Its part of being a constructed magical humanoid.
Despite all these differences, we roll play them all and recognize as a warforged I am different just like a Tortle has a shell and Tieflling can knock stuff off shelves with their tail, Aarakocra don't have lips and do have wings so they can fly. … Its all cool until we run across a Intellect Devourer and it immediately tries to use "Devour Intellect. The intellect devourer targets one creature it can see within 10 feet of it that has a brain." … So per the race page, a warforge is made entirely of wood, stone, and metal.... it has no brain. Heat metal, rust monsters, and roleplay requirements I am 100% on board with. … but suddenly, fighting this creature that eats brains "as a humanoid you have all the same organs as any humanoid, so the intellect devower tries to eat your brain" …. what what?!?! The intellect devourer is and intelligent creature (INT12) with other attacks, but what I really believe is happening is that my level 1 ranger warforge is being targeted for death by a CR2 intellect deovour and the GM has decided its going to use "Body Thief" eat out my brain and take over my body letting the GM play my character. … But I have not brain. I have not organs. I have stone with steel and wood for head. Why am I required and expected to roleplay every negative and deal with being a warforge as a warforge does but then suddenly that is suspended and humanoid means I have organs!?!?! The argument is that "warforged are living humanoids" however the Monster Manual definition of humanoid is on page 7 is: "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans and a tremendous variety of other species. They have language and culture, few if any innate magical abilities (though most humanoids can learn spellcasting), and a bipedal form. The most common humanoid races are the ones most suitable as player characters: humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings. Almost as numerous but far more savage and brutal, and almost uniformly evil, are the races of goblinoids (gol:ilins, hobgoblins, and bugbears), orcs, gnolls, lizardfolk, and kobolds. A variety of humanoids appear throughout this book, but the races detailed in the Player's Handbook- with the exception of drow-are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you·can use to make various members of those races." … no where does it say that humanoids have all the same organs if so Tieflings can't have tails, Aarakocra wings, or Tortles Shells. The intellect devouer specifcilly calls out a an organ that a warforge that specificly says its made of wood, stone, and steel … does not have. There is no indication of anything but an enchanted rock for a head. It has intellect and it has mind so it can be mind controlled... etc. If I need and intellect save that fine, If I have need to resist dominate person with a wisdom save because I have a mind that's fine. There are 2 monster in all of D&D that I know of that attack specific organs. The Intellect Devourer and the Mind Flayer. You might run across one or two of those in a campaign and you when you do they have other attacks (at level 1 I have 12 hp and the Intellect Devourer's claw attack does 2d4+2 damage, it can almost one shot me and the mind flayer has dominate monster , tendrils for 2d10+4 damage, and Mind Blast which does 22 damage and stuns me for 1 minute.) and their are plenty of other targets. Considering how easy it is for the GM to have enemies with heat metal, rust monsters, or just attack me in the VERY rare case of running across these two monsters, why is it that their is this need to SUDDENLY SUSPEND ROLEPLAY and awareness of what I am in a 1984 double think that make the head spin. I am BUILT of stone and steel , don't need nourishment to keep any part of me alive, but I have a soft squishy brain like all the other races … why? It doesn't say that a warforge is "made of wood, stone, and steel with a soft squisy brain" it also does say or even imply that humanoid bipedal forms have the organs or all the other ones that don't would not exist. Warforge Integrated Protection basely says warforged are covered with armor plates already showing that they are not biologically identical to other races. So why do these two monster get to break roleplay and the existence of warforged into something else, like they are temperately made human.... it is the most weird, most immersion breaking, hottest debate we have ever had at our table, with no actual answer from Jeremy Crawford in the rules as written and for what because they want them to eat every players brains instead of using their other attacks and killing instead? My party killed the intellect devourer the round it jumped on me. Its not that it was a threat, its the existential argument about what is a warforged in D&D now that its no longer a construct like previous editions even thought it was constructed. I hope I never run across another mind flayer or intellect devourer in the campaign and it never comes up again... but I am afraid the effects of the debate and lack of answer are far impacting.... if I am made of stone and metal but oddly have organs, why is it I don't eat, sleep, drink, or breath? Am I a living person dissected into a construct? That's not the race I thought I was playing, its not the player choice I made, and what I am is being changed after roleplaying and trying to be an interesting character because the rules have moved from specific (you were built of metal, wood, and stone) > general (mind flayers & intellect devours eat your brains) … to... specific (you were built of metal, wood, and stone) < general (mind flayers & intellect devours eat your brains) because Wizards of the coasts like mind flayers better than clear rules on a pre-existing and defined race in D&D that were preciously clearly constructs and this was not a problem.
I put a lot out there, in this rant of confusion. Seriously why is a warforged considered organinc like all the other races when it comes only to negative effects and these two specific monster? What am I missing that makes it so important they a warforged just be enchanted wood, steal, and stone as described? Is the ability for GM to eath every single characters brain with these specific two monsters so important? If so why? Because it really didn't change the threat of the encounter, just the angry debate that followed. Help me out here with what I am sure to be a lot of hate message... but messages hopefully with well thought out reasoning that can help me wrap my head around what is driving me insane and breaking my character. … please help me...
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Firstly, please never use the phrase "lady favors" again.
Next, you list a bunch of roleplay requirements which don't, in fact, exist. Warforged don't *need* to eat, drink, sleep or breathe, but that doesn't mean you can't partake of pleasures in life. You can grind foodstuffs in your mouth-hole and analyse how the chemicals interact with your darkwood organic sensor nodes, or sample beverages for their interesting odours and sensations. You can decide that your character likes to take its sentries rest lying on a feather bed to better connect with the humanoid experience. You can speak, so you can equally emit a sigh sound or any other vocalisation or sign of emotion that you have learned to replicate. Maybe your race does not reproduce sexually, but there's no reason you couldn't admire the aesthetics of another being's form, and desire to bring them pleasure. Perhaps it is a pleasurable experience to open your central armor plates and have another being gently manipulate your darkwood core fibres? Who knows the secrets of such a creature? You were created for some old war, but those times are gone now and it is up to you to find your own purpose, and your own pleasure.
Then, to the other rules of spells and monsters. Nothing in the rules demands that you should suffer unusual effects from either heat metal or a rust monster, but if your DM has ruled and you accept it then all is fine. Likewise the rules don't say whether you have a "brain" or not. Some of your components are organic. You aren't immune to psychic damage, so there is something brain-like in there. Can a brain be formed of magic wood? Does a dryad have a brain? Does a myconid? I don't know. The rules don't say, and in such situations it is by definition the DM's call. I, like your DM, would default to not granting your character immunity to any effect that the rules don't already grant you. I don't think there's need to assume some sort of conspiracy to kill or weaken your character or the Warforged race. I suspect they decided the race should be humanoid (not construct) for the same reason the centaurs and minotaur races are humanoid not monstrosity, and no races are sizes other than medium or small - it is just easier. The rules get messy otherwise.
So first I would like to point out that Warforged "don't need to" eat, drink, breath, or sleep, not that they "can't." I like playing a Warforged and I treat it as anything ingested is transmuted into energy. This way a Warforged can drink a healing potion or otherwise role play being human. And a Rust Monster can't rust a Warforged because they are not a "weapon" or an "object," they are a creature, and rust monsters can't rust a metal creature. Same thing with heat metal.
Similarly, Warforged have a mechanical equivalent for most major organs: muscles, nerves, veins, heart, and brain. While these are not be organic and wouldn't be appetizing to a creature that eats them for physical nourishment, they can be treated the same as organic for magical effects.
I hope this helps from one Warforged player to another. And when in doubt, just treat it as a normal humanoid as long as it doesnt contradict any of your race features.
[Edit]Ah, sniped by Correon.
Decent reply, So the jest of this it that I was rolling a playing. My GM has taken the stance that my role play based on my interpretation of the race based on what I took from the race depiction and abilities, is wrong buy his opinion. So your saying its fine for him to post his personality changes on my PC against my will and that if he his never giving me inspiration because I can enjoy them but I can't actually benefit from them nourishment, a soft bed will not help me rest better, etc … all rules that hurt me only that's a GM call I should just live with it. That even the rare case of where I it might be beneficial with 2 monsters of the all of D&D, he is write in your eyes, as you agree he should not allow specific over general because that's messy? … its kind of a "suck it up" answer, not saying your wrong but what is "messy" about warfoged having rocks and metal heads and not having so have their brain picked out by these 2 very specific monsters? Is their ANY other way that not having organs is "messy" or impactful to the game?
As far as the attempt and my characters life that was real, but largely unrelated. My GM has tried to kill my characters in the past after disagreements of me roleplaying my character wrong. In this case I made a Goblin Hunter Warforge that was designed to go hunt the in the sewers of the town in order to free the towns guard and allow greater support for the city in the time of the war of which the warforge were created. … So we start the campaign ...end up in the sewer, run across some goblins, and I declare I am going to sneak around the back and try to kill them... I turn the corner and the party just leave me, taking the light and leaving me in the dark. The GM wanted me to forget what I was doing and follow the party, I had one story hook for the character that I hunt goblins in the sewer and here I was able to do so and not risk or hurt the party. When strongly hinted I should ignore my character goals and return to the party and I chose to hunt the goblins for a few more rounds, I was captured (with out save or opportunity to fight and prostrated before my party as a captive). I was delivered unconscious, without save, and on the first turn of finding me an intellect devour move not to them but to me and had a save vs a CR2 monster or my level 1 character dies roll. I saved the party kills it. … I understood the situation. No problem. Angry GM wanted to kill me but at least I got a role. Last time something like this happened he slit my character throat in front of the party with no save. … I am okay with an angry GM killing my character more than I am okay with him overriding my role play. If the intellect devour wanted to use its 2d4+2 attach on an unconscious character for advantage to hit and an auto crit... I am fine with that. But the idea I am forced to have a brain, forced to have an organ that even you said no rules says I have or don't seems like taking away the only player agency a player has being to control who their character is and what they do. Turning my warforged in to a synthetic human with a brain to make a point of killing me when options of killing me without doing that seems like a violation of that one part I control. It seems to me that while rules are rules, player characters creation should be left to the player as long as its reasonable with the rules and doesn't break the game. Having the mosters capture and try to kill me is the GMs job and right, but altering a player character against there wishes just to you can use a specific ability which lets him violate agency by then taking control of my PC as an NPC seems like a line that should not be crossed.
So again... what is "messy" about warfoged having rocks and metal heads and not having so have their brain picked out by these 2 very specific monsters? What is game braking about it? Isn't the warforge and what it means to me part of the character design and the only player agency I get? If its not a given that a PC would have a tail or not have tail, or that tieflings horns point back or down, those are player agency aspects of character creation and roleplay choices, any player character should have to my mind. So If you can explain why a player should not have the agency of depicting the roleplay characteristics and physical design of the character within the known rules (made of wood, steel, and stone) and how that is messy... please elaborate.... I think this clarifies my problem but doesn't resolve it right now.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Character roleplay is subjective, I role play it my way and you role play it yours as is the right of players creating characters (which is my fist point). GM controls monster and rules of spells in the world, if they GM says they do they do because that's what GM do. That's not problem, and my second point.
That's not in any rules. your designing your character how you want to do this. Are you saying I can't do the same? I have to play your way or my roleplay / fun is wrong? What if I want an enchant shadow fel gate key as my heart and I am enchanted stone, steel, and wood otherwise, why can't I do that with my character? (that's what I did, and the core is how I explain my gloom stalker power at level 3.
Please understand, I do appreciate your input from a warforge player to a warforge player. My point is what is "normal humanoid" in D&D when the rules only say that means bipedal and the you have bird people with wing arms, cat, people, shifers, totals with armored shells, half demon tieflings with hornes an tails? "normal humanoid" to me only means that as a bipedal with 2 arms, 2 legs, a head, 2 hands, 2 feet, a torso, and a waste. It implies nothing about organ. Centaurs are considered "humanoid" and they don't even follow those rules... do they have heart in the horse half or the "human torso" or both? since the rules do not say.... shouldn't the player making that character decide? Isn't that a Player character choice? The GM controls everything else... but the player character is the only agency a player really has. At what point do GMs get to override that? I asked before the game If playing a warforge was going to be a problem I gave it a shadow fel key stone core... not a heart... and I even said "unknown to the warforge, eath time it enters the shadow fel a random effect can happen, role 1d20, on a 20 the warforge gains some power of the GM desecration, on a 1 it explodes an the waforge is utterly destroyed and can not be revived." Why? character choice. Maybe we never enter the shadow fel and it doesn't matter, maybe we do several time and I explode. Sure, the power would get... that's me allowing for something out side the rules possibly extra under special conditions. … so GM call. Me having organs and how my war forge is built… seems like a player agency to me. If I am wrong, why? How does this break D&D?
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I was just trying to clarify any rules confusion, not criticize any role play choices.
As for where player jurisdiction ends and DM jurisdiction begins: you can control your character's choices, the DM tells you what its biology is. You probably already knew that at some level, because you asked the DM about the special core.
If the DM decides to go against the rules (like being able to rust and heat as if you are not a creature), they should tell you ahead of time and stick to it (by not targeting you with effects that only effect creatures).
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D&D Beyond FoundersIt sounds to me like there are two separate issues here:
I believe that neither of these things can be resolved by others on internet forums and that the only sensible course of action is for you and the DM to sit down and talk this through.
If you're able to do that in a non-confrontational manner, then I expect the two of you can find common ground and will both enjoy your D&D games more.
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Thank you all for some perspective.
I came here to clear my head and get an outside view. I believe these last couple of posts did just that. I kind of needed to dig into it because no one in my group was even giving me the light of day and the GM resorted to name calling because I wanted to play my characters actions differently than he wanted me to play my character actions. I agree your right on it being to points not one. Which might be why I have had so much trouble wrapping my head around it. It seems like #1 should be a small thing, it only matters with 2 monsters in the whole game. The #2 problem is that my GM doesn't see me as a player but as a voiced NPC for his real friends so he lets and wants them to play things out but me he just wants to do what he says or he kills my character. I would say I could fix my problem by just playing a character of a differenet race, but I have played 6 characters with this GM and everyone has had a problem and everyone has been targeted for death. The other players confirmed I was targeted for death by the GM and even to active actions to stop it a few times. Coming here was intended to clear my head so that when me and my GM talked/played again I would know where the real problem was and be prepared to discuss it in as "non-confrontational manner" as I could getting out my frustration here and working through it so I can be calm talking to him.
… That was my goal. …but honestly … I think my GM does treat me like a player or a friend, and I think based of DxJxC's comments I maybe jaded constantly having to fight to just be a character I want to play even though I can see he is right that the GM has the right to tell me what the rules for the Warforge is in this Campaign and I did acknowledge that in having approve the character first. At the same time I did that because he has a requirement that me and another player (both the players that are not old friends he looks for outside of D&D) submit character before every game to check for "problems" then he approves them and something 100% of the time ends up being a problem later. … I don't know how not to be a GMs NPC and I think my desire to fight for the warforged trait is not because its important but because this happens every character I make, a few sessions in he wants me to change something and bend it to his direction while not requiring this of this old friends. I feel like am being constantly bullied so even though its a stupid argument I want to push back. … I am trying to convince my mind to let it go. … I am wandering if he is just too controlling and I am just to jaded to let it go at this point and I should just apologize for arguing and bow out of his game respectfully. … I am torn because basically his group is mostly friends of 3 years and I did try to run a game with them but without him (at least at a start until I found my feet as GM) then they invited him and he kept cutting me off to force his own actions. … I don't know if there is something I can do here or if my only option is to leave. If I leave, I have no local options to play D&D as an older person in a foreign country where English is not the primary language and new groups are generally players 20 years younger with a very different mind set, playing 7 days and many hours and I just can't keep up. I have a wife responsibilities.
If someone has some objective input it apricated but mainly this post did what I needed and now I have to figure out how to move forward or if that is possible.
Edit: I did calmly speak to my GM, he basically said his table is a not a joint table he runs it his way and if I didn't like it I could leave. He has said so before and told him perhaps that's best for now, if I am having difficulty letting this small thing go it's likely going to get worse. So we made a peaceful separation him being my GM but both agreed we could still hangout and play video games etc as friends. Sad now thought, because I don't have a steady D&D game anymore. But thanks again for helping me see I was... and I guess still am losing my head a bit and need to step back until I can get over little things again.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
It sounds like this DM just isn't a fit for you
Have you tried talking to him, in a broad way about favoritism and how you don't want to be the dm's voiced npc?
I think it's been said already, but I'd like to throw my thoughts in on this.
To me it seems like you have a very strong head canon about how Warforged should be. I understand this, because I have a lot of strong opinions on how different races should act and interact with others. The issue here is that your role play, however good it is, seems to be based on a bunch of rules that you set for yourself. I'm all for imposing disadvantages on yourself for the sake of role play, but you do have to realize that that is what it is. You are placing them on yourself. If you know the rules for gaining inspiration in the game, and decide to impose some role play rules that make it impossible for you to benefit, then that is on you. You can't expect the DM to change his rulings just because they don't work in your favor.
That being said, based on your description, he does kind of seem like a dick. The game is meant to be played together, so that everyone can have fun. It's the DMs job to work so that everyone is having fun.
Sorry to necro this topic, but I had to vent a bit after reading all this.
Because nobody said so directly enough. Your (ex) DM is just a bad DM and an *******. There is just no excuse for a DM to force a player, how to play his character. The DM has the power over the whole world, except the player characters. If a DM wants power over PCs, then he shouldn't DM, but write a book. If i were one of the other players at the table, I would gladly tell the DM, to stop being such an *******, or I would leave.
Again, sorry that I necroed this topic.
I'd say nobody is blameless in this exchange. The DM isn't necessarily wrong, but he's doing in the worst possible way and that ends up putting blame on him. Meanwhile, OP is trying to play Dark Souls D&D when nobody else is, and then is kinda throwing a tantrum when he realizes he's playing a different game than everyone else and expects them to change.
yeah but it is the DM's responsibility to communicate to players how things work on his table. If a DM is incabable of that, he failed. If a player is incabable of listening, then it is the DM's responsibility to politly kick the player from the table.
just making it unconfortable for the player to be there, puts the player in the most shitty situation possible. He can either leave and look like the grumpy cat, or he stays, and feels bullied the whole time. Thats why the DM is responsible to talk to the player.