They may not simply because they don’t seem to like to errata balance; they tend to mostly errata when things were written incorrectly or confusingly. I don’t think it would be gamebreaking to allow players to cast their MI spells with their slots. It simply isn’t (generally) RAW as I read it.
They may not simply because they don’t seem to like to errata balance
This is very true. They do like to errata consistency though, so maybe yes. Maybe no. Either way, we have strayed from the thread topic and that's on me.
This is also why I think we will see an errata to the magic initiate feat to bring it in line with the wording of the newer fey-touched and shadow-touched, etc feats.
Exactly there is No reason it should not work that way at this point. Especially since the original wording of the feat never actually precludes that. It clearly states it is limited by “before you can cast it again in THIS WAY.” It never states you can’t cast it a different way. It would be no change at all to the actual RAW. It would essentially only errata the extraneous Sage Advice ruling. Personally, I felt like they always should have All worked the way the new feats do.
This is also why I think we will see an errata to the magic initiate feat to bring it in line with the wording of the newer fey-touched and shadow-touched, etc feats.
Exactly there is No reason it should not work that way at this point. Especially since the original wording of the feat never actually precludes that. It clearly states it is limited by “before you can cast it again in THIS WAY.” It never states you can’t cast it a different way. It would be no change at all to the actual RAW. It would essentially only errata the extraneous Sage Advice ruling. Personally, I felt like they always should have All worked the way the new feats do.
"never actually precludes" is a terrible rules argument for 5th edition. There are a few rules that are such restrictions, but most of the game tells you what you can do rather than cannot. The rule not telling you that the spells can be cast with slots means that isn't an option (from the feat; other rules may allow you to cast them with spell slots).
Spell slots are never specified towards a certain class. Learned spells and prepared spells are specified towards certain classes, but spell slots are never defined. If you look into multiclassing and certain feats, you'll learn that spell slots can be used towards learned or prepared spells no matter the class. The main issue is that the Magic Initiate feat does not specify that you can use spell slots for the learned spell unlike other feats such as Fey Touched or Artificer Initiate. However, magic initiate is an old feat compared to these other feats, and it's text is more vague. Considering the balance, even if the magic initiate feat spell can use spell slots, it is still considerably weaker than the Fey Touched feat. Id say that if your DM doesn't allow magic initiate to use spell slots, then build Fey Touched and watch your DM suffer, or leave the campaign because your DM is a dickhole.
Spell slots are not specified. I hope that isn't what you think I said. The text of each spellcasting feature limits the use of slots "to cast your [cleric](or other spellcasting class) spells of 1st level and higher." Magic initiate provides no such indicator that you can use slots on them, as you point out when you mention the newer feats.
That text doesn't specify that spell slots can't be used for other spells you know. The text just isn't specific enough to rule out all other possibilities
Unless you want to allow wizards to cast any spell in their spellbook, you have to treat the spellcasting rules as the limitation you've just been told they are. A wizard with Magic Initiate knows both the MI spell and every spell in their spellbook. Unless stopped by the rules of their own spellcasting, they can cast all of their known spells with any slot, and their preparation limit becomes meaningless.
The rules for Wizard spells are different for the rules for a magic initiate spell. "Knowing" a wizard spell means it's in your spell book and you can use the spell if you prepare it. If other classes use the same logic then for example a cleric knows all the cleric spells, but of course the cleric spells have their own rules. If you look at the rules for multiclassing, spell slots can be used for any spell you can cast for any of your classes, and I think the same rule would apply to any spell you know depending on its source, including magic initiate.
It seems like the consensus online is that you can only use the magic initiate spell with spell slots if you have the same class as the magic initiate source. I don't really see the logic tbh, and it still seems like early content where they lacked a bit in the description, since every other feat that teaches you a spell is newer and and does specify that you can use your spell slots. Which if that isn't the same for magic initiate, then it is far weaker than all of those other feats which also give you ASI's.
If you look at the rules for multiclassing, spell slots can be used for any spell you can cast for any of your classes, and I think the same rule would apply to any spell you know depending on its source, including magic initiate.
But feats don't give you levels in a new class.
It seems like the consensus online is that you can only use the magic initiate spell with spell slots if you have the same class as the magic initiate source. I don't really see the logic tbh, and it still seems like early content where they lacked a bit in the description, since every other feat that teaches you a spell is newer and and does specify that you can use your spell slots. Which if that isn't the same for magic initiate, then it is far weaker than all of those other feats which also give you ASI's.
They very well may errata the old rules, but until they do the mere existence of rules that fix the problem means that the problem exists, whether they were intended or not.
RAW, you can spend your slots on what the rules tell you that you can. Your spellcasting class features tell you that you can spend them on your class spells (either known or prepared), old feats do not mention slots, and new feats do. That leaves us in the position that the old feats cannot be cast using slots unless they otherwise fit into your class spellcasting rules: the spell counts as known and associated with the class that you chose when you picked the feat and you can cast it if you have levels in that class.
The rules for Wizard spells are different for the rules for a magic initiate spell. "Knowing" a wizard spell means it's in your spell book and you can use the spell if you prepare it. If other classes use the same logic then for example a cleric knows all the cleric spells, but of course the cleric spells have their own rules.
Exactly. There's no logic here, only RAW. Clerics don't know any spells, at all, because no rule lets them do so - of course, there are ways they can go out of their way to get such a rule, such as feat. But baseline, Clerics don't know spells. The list of classes that knows spells is: Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard. Special mention: Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster know spells as well - they're subclasses. The list of classes that doesn't know spells (by default - as I just mentioned, subclasses can change the rules, as can any other source of special rules): Artificer, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Rogue. Note also that the reason a wizard can only cast a spell they know if they prepare it is that their spellcasting rules say so, which was my original point.
If you look at the rules for multiclassing, spell slots can be used for any spell you can cast for any of your classes, and I think the same rule would apply to any spell you know depending on its source, including magic initiate.
The multiclassing rules are so broken, RAW, that absolutely no-one plays with them. We can get into those weeds if you really want. The way everyone actually plays is that multiclassing overrides your spellcasting features to let you cast any spell you know from a non-prepare class (i.e. this does not apply to wizards, they are a prepare-class) and any spell you have prepared from a prepare-class. The MI feat applies no such override, so for a single class caster, this is not remotely relevant. For a multiclass one, it absolutely is, but again, the multiclass rules RAW collapse into an unusable mess if taken literally - for example, they absolutely do state that a multiclass wizard can cast spells they know but don't have prepared, provided they use a spell slot above their normal maximum.
It seems like the consensus online is that you can only use the magic initiate spell with spell slots if you have the same class as the magic initiate source. I don't really see the logic tbh, and it still seems like early content where they lacked a bit in the description, since every other feat that teaches you a spell is newer and and does specify that you can use your spell slots. Which if that isn't the same for magic initiate, then it is far weaker than all of those other feats which also give you ASI's.
The logic is that we do our level best to obey the RAW, and that's what the RAW says.
Here’s a question that I have pertaining to this ruling.
Let’s say that I wanted to make a melee-oriented sorcerer without multiclassing. Suboptimal, I know, but humor me for a second.
I’m interested in taking melee cantrips like Booming Blade for my character, but since they rely on a weapon attack (rather than a melee spell attack), they aren’t normally great sorcerer cantrips - unless I can somehow make weapon attacks with my spellcasting ability. Without multiclassing, the only way that I can make this work is to take the druid’s Shillelagh cantrip with the Magic Initiate feat. I pick up Guidance for good measure, as well, since it’s just a good cantrip that sorcerers don’t normally have access to.
Now, I’m left picking a 1st level spell from the druid spell list. I pick Absorb Elements, since it’s a pretty solid defensive spell that will stay relevant and help keep my squishy sorcerer alive. According to the Sage Advice ruling, I can cast Absorb Elements once with Magic Initiate, but can’t cast it using the spell slots from my sorcerer class because I selected the spell from the druid spell list when I took the feat. This leads me to my question:
I selected Absorb Elements from the druid spell list as part of Magic Initiate, but Absorb Elements also appears natively on the sorcerer spell list. Even though I didn’t “learn” the spell as part of the sorcerer class specifically, it is nonetheless a spell normally available to sorcerers. As such, should I be able to cast it with my spell slots from the sorcerer class?
Let’s say that I wanted to make a melee-oriented sorcerer without multiclassing. Suboptimal, I know, but humor me for a second.
I’m interested in taking melee cantrips like Booming Blade for my character, but since they rely on a weapon attack (rather than a melee spell attack), they aren’t normally great sorcerer cantrips - unless I can somehow make weapon attacks with my spellcasting ability. Without multiclassing, the only way that I can make this work is to take the druid’s Shillelagh cantrip with the Magic Initiate feat. I pick up Guidance for good measure, as well, since it’s just a good cantrip that sorcerers don’t normally have access to.
Now, I’m left picking a 1st level spell from the druid spell list. I pick Absorb Elements,
I selected Absorb Elements from the druid spell list as part of Magic Initiate, but Absorb Elements also appears natively on the sorcerer spell list. Even though I didn’t “learn” the spell as part of the sorcerer class specifically, it is nonetheless a spell normally available to sorcerers. As such, should I be able to cast it with my spell slots from the sorcerer class?
No, you can't because that spell is a Druid spell for you. It is on your list of known Druid spells, not your list of known Sorcerer spells.
On a side note, not sure how Shillelagh helps you much. It only lets you attack using Wis, which is no more your spellcasting trait than Str or Dex.
Here’s a question that I have pertaining to this ruling.
Let’s say that I wanted to make a melee-oriented sorcerer without multiclassing. Suboptimal, I know, but humor me for a second.
I’m interested in taking melee cantrips like Booming Blade for my character, but since they rely on a weapon attack (rather than a melee spell attack), they aren’t normally great sorcerer cantrips - unless I can somehow make weapon attacks with my spellcasting ability. Without multiclassing, the only way that I can make this work is to take the druid’s Shillelagh cantrip with the Magic Initiate feat. I pick up Guidance for good measure, as well, since it’s just a good cantrip that sorcerers don’t normally have access to.
Now, I’m left picking a 1st level spell from the druid spell list. I pick Absorb Elements, since it’s a pretty solid defensive spell that will stay relevant and help keep my squishy sorcerer alive. According to the Sage Advice ruling, I can cast Absorb Elements once with Magic Initiate, but can’t cast it using the spell slots from my sorcerer class because I selected the spell from the druid spell list when I took the feat. This leads me to my question:
I selected Absorb Elements from the druid spell list as part of Magic Initiate, but Absorb Elements also appears natively on the sorcerer spell list. Even though I didn’t “learn” the spell as part of the sorcerer class specifically, it is nonetheless a spell normally available to sorcerers. As such, should I be able to cast it with my spell slots from the sorcerer class?
Raw, no. You took the magic intiiate feat as a Druid, and you have no Druid spell slots. So the only casting of the spell can be the one specifically allowed through the feat. I'd allow it as a DM, because its on your list, but RAW its a no.
Thank you both, RegentCorreon and Spideycloned, for taking the time to answer my question.
In regards to your side-note, RegentCorreon, the spell description for Shillelagh reads: “For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8.” So for druids (who, admittedly, are the most likely to take the cantrip), the spellcasting ability in question would indeed be Wisdom. But if another spellcasting class happens to pick up the cantrip somehow (such as through the Magic Initiate feat, or the warlock’s Pact of the Tome feature), Shillelagh would instead work off of their respective spellcasting ability instead. Hence my desire to pick it up on my sorcerer, and make my swings with Cha!
Thank you both, RegentCorreon and Spideycloned, for taking the time to answer my question.
In regards to your side-note, RegentCorreon, the spell description for Shillelagh reads: “For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8.” So for druids (who, admittedly, are the most likely to take the cantrip), the spellcasting ability in question would indeed be Wisdom. But if another spellcasting class happens to pick up the cantrip somehow (such as through the Magic Initiate feat, or the warlock’s Pact of the Tome feature), Shillelagh would instead work off of their respective spellcasting ability instead. Hence my desire to pick it up on my sorcerer, and make my swings with Cha!
Hmm, no I think it is still Wis which is the spellcasting ability of the Druid class for this Druid spell which you can cast as if you were initiated into the Druid's spellcasting feature. If you managed to get the spell as part of a feature that said "this spell counts as a Sorcerer spell for you", just like the Bard's Magical Secrets feature does, then it would use your Sorcerer spellcasting attribute.
When spells say "your spellcasting ability," they are referring to the ability associated with that spell for you. Every spell that you can cast has its own spellcasting ability based on how you learned it. It gets a bit tricky with many sources for spells, but generally:
Spells learned through spellcasting class features use your class spellcasting ability (cha for sorcerers)
Racial features tell you the spellcasting ability (Drow use cha for their drow magic)
Feats tell you (in some way) what the spellcasting ability is
Some ask you to choose a class associated with a feat -- these use the spellcasting modifier of the class you choose -- this is the case for Magic Initiate: Druid
Some ask you to choose the ability score directly -- this is the case with things like Fey Touched: Charisma.
There may be others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
Anyway, in short, the spellcasting ability for your spells is not associated with your character, but rather with each individual spell depending on how it was added to your list.
Ah, I see. Thank you all for the clarification. I see now that I was mistaken. Unfortunate for my character concept, but I suppose that is the way of things. I appreciate everyone’s insight.
Worth noting the One D&D version of the feat details you can cast using spell slots and even lets you take it more than once. Each time you take it, you choose the spellcasting ability. regardless of which spell list you select. AND you can change one of the spells it gives you with a different one from the same list and level whenever you increase in character level.
Given the "Variant Human" will be the new "Default" human in One D&D and the One D&D backgrounds lets you start with a feat too, you could start with this twice,
This feat got a serious buff and I kinda hope it stays in, not gonna lie.
--
Just mentioning this because combined with the wording of newer existing feats, like Fey-touched, etc, the intent is clear they want it to work with spell slots as well as giving it once free. It was just poorly worded due to trying to base it on class spell lists when the classes do spellcasting differently.
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Honestly, it just looks like it is an oversight they have not errata’ed it at this point.
It isn't an oversight, it is a choice. In the newish books then all feats or class features or similar that grants x/day spells also allows you to cast them using your regular spell slots. The older books don't. And we won't see any new errata to the PHB or the other older books at this point but I expect oneDND will use the "use your regular slots" mechanic.
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They may not simply because they don’t seem to like to errata balance; they tend to mostly errata when things were written incorrectly or confusingly. I don’t think it would be gamebreaking to allow players to cast their MI spells with their slots. It simply isn’t (generally) RAW as I read it.
This is very true. They do like to errata consistency though, so maybe yes. Maybe no. Either way, we have strayed from the thread topic and that's on me.
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Exactly there is No reason it should not work that way at this point. Especially since the original wording of the feat never actually precludes that. It clearly states it is limited by “before you can cast it again in THIS WAY.” It never states you can’t cast it a different way. It would be no change at all to the actual RAW. It would essentially only errata the extraneous Sage Advice ruling. Personally, I felt like they always should have All worked the way the new feats do.
"never actually precludes" is a terrible rules argument for 5th edition. There are a few rules that are such restrictions, but most of the game tells you what you can do rather than cannot. The rule not telling you that the spells can be cast with slots means that isn't an option (from the feat; other rules may allow you to cast them with spell slots).
The rules for Wizard spells are different for the rules for a magic initiate spell. "Knowing" a wizard spell means it's in your spell book and you can use the spell if you prepare it. If other classes use the same logic then for example a cleric knows all the cleric spells, but of course the cleric spells have their own rules. If you look at the rules for multiclassing, spell slots can be used for any spell you can cast for any of your classes, and I think the same rule would apply to any spell you know depending on its source, including magic initiate.
It seems like the consensus online is that you can only use the magic initiate spell with spell slots if you have the same class as the magic initiate source. I don't really see the logic tbh, and it still seems like early content where they lacked a bit in the description, since every other feat that teaches you a spell is newer and and does specify that you can use your spell slots. Which if that isn't the same for magic initiate, then it is far weaker than all of those other feats which also give you ASI's.
But feats don't give you levels in a new class.
They very well may errata the old rules, but until they do the mere existence of rules that fix the problem means that the problem exists, whether they were intended or not.
RAW, you can spend your slots on what the rules tell you that you can. Your spellcasting class features tell you that you can spend them on your class spells (either known or prepared), old feats do not mention slots, and new feats do. That leaves us in the position that the old feats cannot be cast using slots unless they otherwise fit into your class spellcasting rules: the spell counts as known and associated with the class that you chose when you picked the feat and you can cast it if you have levels in that class.
The logic is that we do our level best to obey the RAW, and that's what the RAW says.
Here’s a question that I have pertaining to this ruling.
Let’s say that I wanted to make a melee-oriented sorcerer without multiclassing. Suboptimal, I know, but humor me for a second.
I’m interested in taking melee cantrips like Booming Blade for my character, but since they rely on a weapon attack (rather than a melee spell attack), they aren’t normally great sorcerer cantrips - unless I can somehow make weapon attacks with my spellcasting ability. Without multiclassing, the only way that I can make this work is to take the druid’s Shillelagh cantrip with the Magic Initiate feat. I pick up Guidance for good measure, as well, since it’s just a good cantrip that sorcerers don’t normally have access to.
Now, I’m left picking a 1st level spell from the druid spell list. I pick Absorb Elements, since it’s a pretty solid defensive spell that will stay relevant and help keep my squishy sorcerer alive. According to the Sage Advice ruling, I can cast Absorb Elements once with Magic Initiate, but can’t cast it using the spell slots from my sorcerer class because I selected the spell from the druid spell list when I took the feat. This leads me to my question:
I selected Absorb Elements from the druid spell list as part of Magic Initiate, but Absorb Elements also appears natively on the sorcerer spell list. Even though I didn’t “learn” the spell as part of the sorcerer class specifically, it is nonetheless a spell normally available to sorcerers. As such, should I be able to cast it with my spell slots from the sorcerer class?
No, you can't because that spell is a Druid spell for you. It is on your list of known Druid spells, not your list of known Sorcerer spells.
On a side note, not sure how Shillelagh helps you much. It only lets you attack using Wis, which is no more your spellcasting trait than Str or Dex.
Raw, no. You took the magic intiiate feat as a Druid, and you have no Druid spell slots. So the only casting of the spell can be the one specifically allowed through the feat. I'd allow it as a DM, because its on your list, but RAW its a no.
Thank you both, RegentCorreon and Spideycloned, for taking the time to answer my question.
In regards to your side-note, RegentCorreon, the spell description for Shillelagh reads: “For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8.” So for druids (who, admittedly, are the most likely to take the cantrip), the spellcasting ability in question would indeed be Wisdom. But if another spellcasting class happens to pick up the cantrip somehow (such as through the Magic Initiate feat, or the warlock’s Pact of the Tome feature), Shillelagh would instead work off of their respective spellcasting ability instead. Hence my desire to pick it up on my sorcerer, and make my swings with Cha!
Hmm, no I think it is still Wis which is the spellcasting ability of the Druid class for this Druid spell which you can cast as if you were initiated into the Druid's spellcasting feature. If you managed to get the spell as part of a feature that said "this spell counts as a Sorcerer spell for you", just like the Bard's Magical Secrets feature does, then it would use your Sorcerer spellcasting attribute.
When spells say "your spellcasting ability," they are referring to the ability associated with that spell for you. Every spell that you can cast has its own spellcasting ability based on how you learned it. It gets a bit tricky with many sources for spells, but generally:
Anyway, in short, the spellcasting ability for your spells is not associated with your character, but rather with each individual spell depending on how it was added to your list.
Ah, I see. Thank you all for the clarification. I see now that I was mistaken. Unfortunate for my character concept, but I suppose that is the way of things. I appreciate everyone’s insight.
The only instance Shillelagh would work as a Charisma cantrip is if it was picked up using the Pact of the Tome 3rd level warlock feature.
It also works as a Charisma cantrip for a Bard casting it from a Fochlucan Bandore, but that's once per day.
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And yet Artificer Initiate lets you cast the learned spell with spell slots.
Honestly, it just looks like it is an oversight they have not errata’ed it at this point.
Worth noting the One D&D version of the feat details you can cast using spell slots and even lets you take it more than once. Each time you take it, you choose the spellcasting ability. regardless of which spell list you select. AND you can change one of the spells it gives you with a different one from the same list and level whenever you increase in character level.
Given the "Variant Human" will be the new "Default" human in One D&D and the One D&D backgrounds lets you start with a feat too, you could start with this twice,
This feat got a serious buff and I kinda hope it stays in, not gonna lie.
--
Just mentioning this because combined with the wording of newer existing feats, like Fey-touched, etc, the intent is clear they want it to work with spell slots as well as giving it once free. It was just poorly worded due to trying to base it on class spell lists when the classes do spellcasting differently.
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It isn't an oversight, it is a choice. In the newish books then all feats or class features or similar that grants x/day spells also allows you to cast them using your regular spell slots. The older books don't. And we won't see any new errata to the PHB or the other older books at this point but I expect oneDND will use the "use your regular slots" mechanic.