Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
Really? I thought the optional rule was only to gain proficiency unless it is something not in the PHB that I've missed?
Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
Really? I thought the optional rule was only to gain proficiency unless it is something not in the PHB that I've missed?
You're not going to find in the PHB other than gaining it by class features, racial feat, spells/other PC's features (temporary), or magic items. If you want a permanent expertise without devoting a class level/ASI/attunement slot, you'll have to gain it as a reward from the DM (which is technically always the case anyway). I don't feel that working toward expertise (in a single skill/tool) over ~6 months of downtime training is unreasonable for most DMs.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
Really? I thought the optional rule was only to gain proficiency unless it is something not in the PHB that I've missed?
You're not going to find in the PHB other than gaining it by class features, racial feat, spells/other PC's features (temporary), or magic items. If you want a permanent expertise without devoting a class level/ASI/attunement slot, you'll have to gain it as a reward from the DM (which is technically always the case anyway). I don't feel that working toward expertise (in a single skill/tool) over ~6 months of downtime training is unreasonable for most DMs.
Logically, if you can learn a new skill with time training you should also be able to get better at a skill in the same time. However, mechanically there is a class feature that gives that ability. Allowing any class to gain class features from rogue/bard weakens those classes and discourages playing them. I think there needs to be a really strong reason to allow someone to gain class features from another class without taking levels of that class.
Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
Really? I thought the optional rule was only to gain proficiency unless it is something not in the PHB that I've missed?
You're not going to find in the PHB other than gaining it by class features, racial feat, spells/other PC's features (temporary), or magic items. If you want a permanent expertise without devoting a class level/ASI/attunement slot, you'll have to gain it as a reward from the DM (which is technically always the case anyway). I don't feel that working toward expertise (in a single skill/tool) over ~6 months of downtime training is unreasonable for most DMs.
Logically, if you can learn a new skill with time training you should also be able to get better at a skill in the same time. However, mechanically there is a class feature that gives that ability. Allowing any class to gain class features from rogue/bard weakens those classes and discourages playing them. I think there needs to be a really strong reason to allow someone to gain class features from another class without taking levels of that class.
It... really doesn't diminish anything. There's already a feat that grants you expertise (and other goodies). Learning a feat is already a valid downtime activity, so working toward just expertise is actually a step down from what is already considered a valid downtime activity by RAW.
Certainly not every DM will allow their players to do this--as it's explicitly the DM's call on downtime activities anyway--but it's definitely not un-allowable.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I started my campaign with them being hired by Xanathar and the Masked Lords of Water deep to be trained into a professional strike force. now I want them to get feats and expertise or proficiency now I would to hear some ideas from all of you that I could implement into this?
Just a quick note - it’s not just rogues and bards that gain expertise, Rangers also get it but it’s under the L2 feature deft explorer. If you really want a skill monkey with lots of proficiencies and expertises go human (resourceful, original feat skilled) then Ranger2, bard2, rogue 1. Start with rogue 1 to get 4 skills and 2 expertises as well as thieves tools and sneak attack, then ranger 2 to get 1 more skill, 1 more expertise and martial weapons and medium armor ( and 2 languages), then Bard 2 to get 1 more skill, 2 more expertises and jack of all trades to cover anything you missed ( and one musical instrument). That would give you 10 skills, 5 expertises, 2 (extra) languages, a musical instrument and thieves tools. On the other hand your L5 with no subclasses yet.
Wizards also now have a class feature that gives them expertise in Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, or Religion (note: you have to have proficiency first).
There is also the Skill Expert feat which gives you expertise in 1 skill.
Observant can give you expertise in Insight, Perception, or Investigation if you already have proficiency (you get proficiency if you don't have it, expertise if you do).
Similarly, Keen Mind gives you proficiency/expertise in Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, or Religion.
If you can use older content, there is a racial feat for Humans called Prodigy that gives you expertise in which you already have proficiency.
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What ways are there to gain Expertise?
Gaining expertise in a skill/tool you're already proficient with is a valid downtime activity that--with your DM's approval--you can work toward as your campaign progresses.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Really? I thought the optional rule was only to gain proficiency unless it is something not in the PHB that I've missed?
Edit: Oops I meant DMG not PHB above.
Skill empowerment.
You're not going to find in the PHB other than gaining it by class features, racial feat, spells/other PC's features (temporary), or magic items. If you want a permanent expertise without devoting a class level/ASI/attunement slot, you'll have to gain it as a reward from the DM (which is technically always the case anyway). I don't feel that working toward expertise (in a single skill/tool) over ~6 months of downtime training is unreasonable for most DMs.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Logically, if you can learn a new skill with time training you should also be able to get better at a skill in the same time. However, mechanically there is a class feature that gives that ability. Allowing any class to gain class features from rogue/bard weakens those classes and discourages playing them. I think there needs to be a really strong reason to allow someone to gain class features from another class without taking levels of that class.
It... really doesn't diminish anything. There's already a feat that grants you expertise (and other goodies). Learning a feat is already a valid downtime activity, so working toward just expertise is actually a step down from what is already considered a valid downtime activity by RAW.
Certainly not every DM will allow their players to do this--as it's explicitly the DM's call on downtime activities anyway--but it's definitely not un-allowable.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I started my campaign with them being hired by Xanathar and the Masked Lords of Water deep to be trained into a professional strike force. now I want them to get feats and expertise or proficiency now I would to hear some ideas from all of you that I could implement into this?
It's like right in the first two rules
1. The DM is ALWAYS right
2. If the DM is wrong, refer to rule #1
Just a quick note - it’s not just rogues and bards that gain expertise, Rangers also get it but it’s under the L2 feature deft explorer. If you really want a skill monkey with lots of proficiencies and expertises go human (resourceful, original feat skilled) then Ranger2, bard2, rogue 1. Start with rogue 1 to get 4 skills and 2 expertises as well as thieves tools and sneak attack, then ranger 2 to get 1 more skill, 1 more expertise and martial weapons and medium armor ( and 2 languages), then Bard 2 to get 1 more skill, 2 more expertises and jack of all trades to cover anything you missed ( and one musical instrument). That would give you 10 skills, 5 expertises, 2 (extra) languages, a musical instrument and thieves tools. On the other hand your L5 with no subclasses yet.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wizards also now have a class feature that gives them expertise in Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, or Religion (note: you have to have proficiency first).
There is also the Skill Expert feat which gives you expertise in 1 skill.
Observant can give you expertise in Insight, Perception, or Investigation if you already have proficiency (you get proficiency if you don't have it, expertise if you do).
Similarly, Keen Mind gives you proficiency/expertise in Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, or Religion.
If you can use older content, there is a racial feat for Humans called Prodigy that gives you expertise in which you already have proficiency.