Trying to find it if it's in the DMG, how does one recalculate the Challenge rating. If you say have an encounter with a Kobold that has 13 level's in mage? It's for a specific section of a high level campaign I'm converting from 2nd Ed AD&D.
While this is a good work around it doesn't answer the main purpose of the question. Where is the details to calculate class levels specifically added to monsters into the monsters CR?
Most of that information is in the MM, there's a large section detailing the different aspects of a monster right in the beginning of the book. Then you have the finer details in the DMG starting on page 273.
---
For the most part the CR of a creature isn't going to be tied to the "levels of (class)" but more on the AC, HP, and Damage output. You can do some really fast and dirty math once you look at the tables provided, and the abilities of the creature. We'll assume the base stats of a Kobold Shaman (Volo's) don't change.
For arguments sake, a 13th level Wizard can cast up to 1 fifth level spell and we'll say it's chosen Dominate Person. Fourth level spells, we'll say it takes Blight as the attack spell, this can deal 36 (8d8) damage, and at 3rd we have Lightning Bolt, 56 (8d6)x2 because it's assumed to hit 2 people for damage calculation reasons. According to the table that puts the CR at 8 for damage per round.
Then we have Saving Throw/Spell Attack Bonus since it's going to be a caster based creature. DC for any of it's spells will be 10, Spell Attack Bonus will be +2. This puts us at CR 0.
AC is going to be whatever you want it to be, assume it has Mage Armor, so AC of 15. That puts that at a CR 5.
Then we look at the HP and we have 27 (6d6 + 6), which lands us in CR 1/8.
We add all the CRs up and divide by 4 giving us a CR of roughly 3.
So from there, you adjust the dials that can help you out, increase the HP and INT. Lets say a 14(+2) INT and increase the HP to 10d6. This will increase our Spell Save/Attack DC to CR 3 (Spell attack is now +4) and our HP CR to 1/4 since HP is now 30 (10d6 + 10). Final CR is increased to 4.
While this is a good work around it doesn't answer the main purpose of the question. Where is the details to calculate class levels specifically added to monsters into the monsters CR?
Short answer: NPC's no longer use character classes at all, they follow a completely different rule set now unlike previous versions. See DMThac0's post for how to build npcs.
Trying to find it if it's in the DMG, how does one recalculate the Challenge rating. If you say have an encounter with a Kobold that has 13 level's in mage? It's for a specific section of a high level campaign I'm converting from 2nd Ed AD&D.
While this is a good work around it doesn't answer the main purpose of the question. Where is the details to calculate class levels specifically added to monsters into the monsters CR?
There aren't. Class levels and monster CR are separate systems. Class levels will only effect CR from bonuses to damage or AC.
The Mage and Archmage that I directed you to don't care what the race is only the casting level. Mage is 9th level caster and CR 6, Archmage is 18th level caster and CR 12.
(9+18) caster level = 27, divide by 2 for average caster level = 13 when rounded down. This is the caster level you want. Do the same with CR. 6 + 12 CR level = 18, average is CR 9.
13th level caster is CR 9, this took 10 mins to explain and 30 secs to figure out in my head.
The Storm Kings Thunder has a perfect example on page 95. It takes an ancient red dragon (CR 24 which is 62,000xp) and adds 14 levels of spellcaster, which changes its CR to 25, which gives you 75,000 xp. By that logic, 75,000-62,000=13,000 xp. If you look at MM pg 9, 13,000 xp is a CR15.
Therefore, one could argue two points. First class levels are approximately equal to challenge ratings. Secondly, add the xp given for the class level to the xp given to the standard monster.
I would not use CR as anything other than a light baseline it just doesn't work at the end of the day.
There are many a CR 4 creatures that players wouldn't want to fight. Chuuls. Flameskulls. Banshees. Bone Nagas. All CR 4. Gorgon CR 5. Always a threat. 15 Bashees is considered a balanced encounter for 4 level 20s by the games own logic. There will be many typical players that'd fail the DC 13 save. Balance for your party, not CR. The spells your kobold has matters more than it's spellcasting level or CR.
I would not use CR as anything other than a light baseline it just doesn't work at the end of the day.
There are many a CR 4 creatures that players wouldn't want to fight. Chuuls. Flameskulls. Banshees. Bone Nagas. All CR 4. Gorgon CR 5. Always a threat. 15 Bashees is considered a balanced encounter for 4 level 20s by the games own logic. There will be many typical players that'd fail the DC 13 save. Balance for your party, not CR. The spells your kobold has matters more than it's spellcasting level or CR.
Technically, 15 banshees is a deadly encounter for 4 level 20s, 14 banshees is merely hard.
But yeah, some monsters don't fit perfectly in CR. Banshees for example actually change CR depending on the party's average HP if you do the math.
Anyways, this thread died 3 and a half years ago. A random necromancer raised it. Just ignore zombie threads and they will find their way back where they belong (buried).
Trying to find it if it's in the DMG, how does one recalculate the Challenge rating. If you say have an encounter with a Kobold that has 13 level's in mage? It's for a specific section of a high level campaign I'm converting from 2nd Ed AD&D.
In the Monster Manual, use the NPC option in the appendix. Your Kobold would be between Mage CR 6 and Archmage CR 12.
While this is a good work around it doesn't answer the main purpose of the question. Where is the details to calculate class levels specifically added to monsters into the monsters CR?
Most of that information is in the MM, there's a large section detailing the different aspects of a monster right in the beginning of the book. Then you have the finer details in the DMG starting on page 273.
---
For the most part the CR of a creature isn't going to be tied to the "levels of (class)" but more on the AC, HP, and Damage output. You can do some really fast and dirty math once you look at the tables provided, and the abilities of the creature. We'll assume the base stats of a Kobold Shaman (Volo's) don't change.
For arguments sake, a 13th level Wizard can cast up to 1 fifth level spell and we'll say it's chosen Dominate Person. Fourth level spells, we'll say it takes Blight as the attack spell, this can deal 36 (8d8) damage, and at 3rd we have Lightning Bolt, 56 (8d6)x2 because it's assumed to hit 2 people for damage calculation reasons. According to the table that puts the CR at 8 for damage per round.
Then we have Saving Throw/Spell Attack Bonus since it's going to be a caster based creature. DC for any of it's spells will be 10, Spell Attack Bonus will be +2. This puts us at CR 0.
AC is going to be whatever you want it to be, assume it has Mage Armor, so AC of 15. That puts that at a CR 5.
Then we look at the HP and we have 27 (6d6 + 6), which lands us in CR 1/8.
We add all the CRs up and divide by 4 giving us a CR of roughly 3.
So from there, you adjust the dials that can help you out, increase the HP and INT. Lets say a 14(+2) INT and increase the HP to 10d6. This will increase our Spell Save/Attack DC to CR 3 (Spell attack is now +4) and our HP CR to 1/4 since HP is now 30 (10d6 + 10). Final CR is increased to 4.
Short answer: NPC's no longer use character classes at all, they follow a completely different rule set now unlike previous versions. See DMThac0's post for how to build npcs.
You can find rules for custom monster CR in the DMG here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/dmg/dungeon-masters-workshop#CreatingaMonster
There aren't. Class levels and monster CR are separate systems. Class levels will only effect CR from bonuses to damage or AC.
The Mage and Archmage that I directed you to don't care what the race is only the casting level. Mage is 9th level caster and CR 6, Archmage is 18th level caster and CR 12.
(9+18) caster level = 27, divide by 2 for average caster level = 13 when rounded down. This is the caster level you want. Do the same with CR. 6 + 12 CR level = 18, average is CR 9.
13th level caster is CR 9, this took 10 mins to explain and 30 secs to figure out in my head.
The Storm Kings Thunder has a perfect example on page 95. It takes an ancient red dragon (CR 24 which is 62,000xp) and adds 14 levels of spellcaster, which changes its CR to 25, which gives you 75,000 xp. By that logic, 75,000-62,000=13,000 xp. If you look at MM pg 9, 13,000 xp is a CR15.
Therefore, one could argue two points. First class levels are approximately equal to challenge ratings. Secondly, add the xp given for the class level to the xp given to the standard monster.
I would not use CR as anything other than a light baseline it just doesn't work at the end of the day.
There are many a CR 4 creatures that players wouldn't want to fight. Chuuls. Flameskulls. Banshees. Bone Nagas. All CR 4. Gorgon CR 5. Always a threat.
15 Bashees is considered a balanced encounter for 4 level 20s by the games own logic. There will be many typical players that'd fail the DC 13 save.
Balance for your party, not CR. The spells your kobold has matters more than it's spellcasting level or CR.
Technically, 15 banshees is a deadly encounter for 4 level 20s, 14 banshees is merely hard.
But yeah, some monsters don't fit perfectly in CR. Banshees for example actually change CR depending on the party's average HP if you do the math.
Anyways, this thread died 3 and a half years ago. A random necromancer raised it. Just ignore zombie threads and they will find their way back where they belong (buried).
Random necromancer, I don’t know whether to be honored or offended.