I came up with brewing mechanics for making potions alcohal ect. just want to see what people think or any sugetions on the rules.
1 hour for prep time in game for each level of quality. Chariture levels 1-4 can brew a level 1 quality brew, 5-8 for level 2, 9-12 for level 3, and 13-20 for level 4.
The chariture must role an initiative for the preporation and the final product. Potions will have an additional initiative role halfway through the fermenting time.
Fermenting time is equal to 1 week per level of quality.
A tool ability check should include your proficiency modifier for that tool. With that in mind I would make 9 or less a fail at all levels (since they should be getting +5 or better by level 13 anyway).
You also don't mention what the different quality levels actually mean or do, or mention what happens depending on the initiative roll (which I advise omitting anyway).
I would really like to see this expanded as well. I made a character that has brewers supplies. On the first day I had her just stuff the hops into the glass jug. Would it result in nothing since I put no liquid or sugar in it, or will it start fermenting?
9 or less failing works for me too. If you have proficiency with brewer's supplies, then you are already minimizing the risk of failure by adding your proficiency bonus. Add on top of that any bonus to intelligence and by the time you hit level 13, you have knocked a 45% chance of failure down to 20% chance even before you add your Intelligence modifier. If your INT is 18, then you basically never fail the simplest of brews by that point.
Using the same example, your baseline roll is +9 on even the hardest checks and suddenly even master-class beers have a 50/50 chance of coming out successfully. Also, I want to drink a master-class beer now.
9 or less failing works for me too. If you have proficiency with brewer's supplies, then you are already minimizing the risk of failure by adding your proficiency bonus. Add on top of that any bonus to intelligence and by the time you hit level 13, you have knocked a 45% chance of failure down to 20% chance even before you add your Intelligence modifier. If your INT is 18, then you basically never fail the simplest of brews by that point.
Using the same example, your baseline roll is +9 on even the hardest checks and suddenly even master-class beers have a 50/50 chance of coming out successfully. Also, I want to drink a master-class beer now.
AT LEVEL 13!!! As a kid, my dad and I made home made root beer. It was non-alcoholic, but it was nevertheless fermented to get the CO2 effect. Never had a bad batch and we were certainly not 'level 13' anything. Normal people make batches of simple wines and beers in their cellars all the time, without having to go out and fight anything or master anything. At level 13, more complex brewing should start to become easy, but easy does not mean 'Well, it is easy for those among the very best in the world.'
I appreciate the sentiment Kotath, but brewing in a typical D&D world isn't like brewing after WW2. In D&D folks have to gather ingredients and learn something about the method by word of mouth. They can't run over to the grocery store and buy flavored extracts and pick up a book for a couple bucks and read to learn a generation of knowledge condensed into 100 pages. But in the end, I agree, brewing something like beer and wine would be maybe a 1/20 failure after one year, and automatic success after that if you practice the skill regularly. Brewing more complex things might take more time and have a higher degree of failure, but after years of practicing the skill, its automatic unless some external factor messes with the process. Even making distilled spirits takes another level of knowledge and experience. You have to keep that fire at just the right temperature for a long time, which requires some knowledge and instinct to deal with different kinds of wood. I wish I could ask my dad about the time it took to brew things when he did it. He brewed wine and root beer too when I was a teenager.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
What if a Wizard wants to be good at stealth? What if a Rogue wants to be good at animal handling? Every skill has an associated ability score. If you want to be good at that skill, you are going to be better off if the related ability score is higher.
A tool ability check should include your proficiency modifier for that tool. With that in mind I would make 9 or less a fail at all levels (since they should be getting +5 or better by level 13 anyway).
You also don't mention what the different quality levels actually mean or do, or mention what happens depending on the initiative roll (which I advise omitting anyway).
So you are saying that even for someone level 13, they fail 45% of the time even at the simplest of tasks? How in blazes does the vast majority of the population survive, who do not get beyond level 1, if they even train in any class at all?
What is wrong with simple tasks being simple tasks that, with experience, are so routine they do not even need a roll?
*Rereads 16 month old thread to figure out WTF is being discussed*
I don't know how you are doing your math, but with a +5 modifier you only roll a 9 or less 20% of the time. Less than half as often as you think. (9-5)/20=20%. And that was minimum.
We are talking about brewing potions with magic effects, not exactly what I'd call a simple task. I guess alcohol was also mentioned, but I may have over looked it.
Anyway a normal npc craftsman can easily match or exceed that +5, but this was a house rule for PCs raising the quality of potions and alcohols anyway, not just for making common goods. The rule for skill checks is that you don't roll if there is no chance of failure, so I'm sure commoner bar tenders brewing their 100th barrel of ale will be fine.
Potions with magical effects are actually made with herbalism though rather than brewing. Brewing is for nonmagical effects such as drunkenness... Even if the subject was magical brews, I would not call any such brew 'the simplest task' using brewing. From the OP, "for making potions alcohal ect. " You are right about 20% at level 13, but again 'for the simplest tasks....'
A normal npc craftsman matching or exceeding that +5 is only by hand-wavery, since one cannot even learn a skill in 5e simply by putting in time, let alone improve a skill in that manner. It is a broken aspect of the skill system.
Actually, most potions are made with alchemy, only healing potions are made with herbalism. And "brew" means to make a beverage by mixing a solid with water just as much as it means to make alcohol. Verbage aside, the subject of this thread is mostly about potions ("potion" is mentioned twice as often as "alcohol" in the original post).
So we agree that making special items (as would require a check) are not simple tasks. Good.
As for your final point, hey look rules in the PHB for learning a tool proficiency:
Training
You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. Your DM might allow additional training options.
First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you. The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required.
The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool.
Potions with magical effects are actually made with herbalism though rather than brewing. Brewing is for nonmagical effects such as drunkenness... Even if the subject was magical brews, I would not call any such brew 'the simplest task' using brewing. From the OP, "for making potions alcohal ect. " You are right about 20% at level 13, but again 'for the simplest tasks....'
A normal npc craftsman matching or exceeding that +5 is only by hand-wavery, since one cannot even learn a skill in 5e simply by putting in time, let alone improve a skill in that manner. It is a broken aspect of the skill system.
Actually, most potions are made with alchemy, only healing potions are made with herbalism. And "brew" means to make a beverage by mixing a solid with water just as much as it means to make alcohol. Verbage aside, the subject of this thread is mostly about potions ("potion" is mentioned twice as often as "alcohol" in the original post).
So we agree that making special items (as would require a check) are not simple tasks. Good.
As for your final point, hey look rules in the PHB for learning a tool proficiency:
Training
You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. Your DM might allow additional training options.
First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you. The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required.
The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool.
Commoners do have stats, so there are definitely commoners with non-zero modifiers. However if any given commoner is untrained in any class, they are level 0, with no proficiency bonus. They can be proficient, but without so much as level one, that does not matter much.
Potion may be mentioned a lot later, but this is still in the context of the OP. Making the simplest modern battleship is still massively more difficult than making a simple raft, despite both tasks involving shipbuilding tools.
bruh check the monster manual in the rules for monsters prior to the first stat block, for all monsters and NPC's their proficiency bonus is based on their challenge rating, with CR 0 monsters like the humble commoner having a +2 proficiency bonus
edit: these rules can be found here if you are interested, point is commoners have a proficiency bonus
Fine, so they have +2. And how do they improve that without leveling? If the simplest of tasks fails on an 8 or less (OP) or a 9 or less (post 2) then those commoners are still failing on the simplest of tasks 30% (or 35%) of the time.
And the only differentiation the OP makes between potion making and alcohol brewing is wisdom vs int for stat mods, which strangely is not questioned or noted at all in subsequent posts.
No. The simplest tasks don't require checks at all. Why would they? Only difficult tasks for which there is a chance of failure require checks.
And NPCs can train and improve in ways that players don't. Classes and everything else in the PHB are for players, NPCs are just generated with the stats they need to fill their role. If you need an NPC that brews fancy whatevers with no chance of failure, generate it with expertise with the tool and a +4 in the relevant stat.
Learning any given recipe by word of mouth is persuasion and/or language skill.
Gathering ingredients is survival skill, or again, persuasion skill and/or simply spending.
Tool use usually assumes you already have previously obtained the needed materials.
Brewing is ancient, distilling originated well before the birth of Christ, around 5 or 6 thousand years before. There is complex brewing, but 'the simplest of tasks' are very simple.
Learning only requires time and a teacher, no checks.
Someone else can find ingredients or farm them, no checks.
Then buy the tools.
And again "simple tasks" do not have checks. This thread is not about simple tasks. We already established that several times, you even agreed.
I really don't understand the point of worrying about whether brewing mechanics make it harder for NPCs to brew. If an NPC needs to brew something, the DM just makes it happen. These brewing mechanics were clearly designed for PCs to use.
I came up with brewing mechanics for making potions alcohal ect. just want to see what people think or any sugetions on the rules.
1 hour for prep time in game for each level of quality. Chariture levels 1-4 can brew a level 1 quality brew, 5-8 for level 2, 9-12 for level 3, and 13-20 for level 4.
The chariture must role an initiative for the preporation and the final product. Potions will have an additional initiative role halfway through the fermenting time.
Fermenting time is equal to 1 week per level of quality.
alcohal is 1d20+intellagence modifier
potions is 1d20+wisdom modifier
Potion effects are equal to 1d4+characters level
table below for brewing DC
level fail basic advanced expert master
1 1-8 8-20
2 1-5 6-16 17-20
3 1-5 6-11 12-17 18-20
4 1-3 4-9 10-15 16-18 19-20
A tool ability check should include your proficiency modifier for that tool. With that in mind I would make 9 or less a fail at all levels (since they should be getting +5 or better by level 13 anyway).
You also don't mention what the different quality levels actually mean or do, or mention what happens depending on the initiative roll (which I advise omitting anyway).
I would really like to see this expanded as well. I made a character that has brewers supplies. On the first day I had her just stuff the hops into the glass jug. Would it result in nothing since I put no liquid or sugar in it, or will it start fermenting?
9 or less failing works for me too. If you have proficiency with brewer's supplies, then you are already minimizing the risk of failure by adding your proficiency bonus. Add on top of that any bonus to intelligence and by the time you hit level 13, you have knocked a 45% chance of failure down to 20% chance even before you add your Intelligence modifier. If your INT is 18, then you basically never fail the simplest of brews by that point.
Using the same example, your baseline roll is +9 on even the hardest checks and suddenly even master-class beers have a 50/50 chance of coming out successfully. Also, I want to drink a master-class beer now.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Assumptions:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I appreciate the sentiment Kotath, but brewing in a typical D&D world isn't like brewing after WW2. In D&D folks have to gather ingredients and learn something about the method by word of mouth. They can't run over to the grocery store and buy flavored extracts and pick up a book for a couple bucks and read to learn a generation of knowledge condensed into 100 pages. But in the end, I agree, brewing something like beer and wine would be maybe a 1/20 failure after one year, and automatic success after that if you practice the skill regularly. Brewing more complex things might take more time and have a higher degree of failure, but after years of practicing the skill, its automatic unless some external factor messes with the process. Even making distilled spirits takes another level of knowledge and experience. You have to keep that fire at just the right temperature for a long time, which requires some knowledge and instinct to deal with different kinds of wood. I wish I could ask my dad about the time it took to brew things when he did it. He brewed wine and root beer too when I was a teenager.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I don't know. I have never played an Innkeeper.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
What if a Wizard wants to be good at stealth? What if a Rogue wants to be good at animal handling? Every skill has an associated ability score. If you want to be good at that skill, you are going to be better off if the related ability score is higher.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
*Rereads 16 month old thread to figure out WTF is being discussed*
I don't know how you are doing your math, but with a +5 modifier you only roll a 9 or less 20% of the time. Less than half as often as you think. (9-5)/20=20%. And that was minimum.
We are talking about brewing potions with magic effects, not exactly what I'd call a simple task. I guess alcohol was also mentioned, but I may have over looked it.
Anyway a normal npc craftsman can easily match or exceed that +5, but this was a house rule for PCs raising the quality of potions and alcohols anyway, not just for making common goods. The rule for skill checks is that you don't roll if there is no chance of failure, so I'm sure commoner bar tenders brewing their 100th barrel of ale will be fine.
Actually, most potions are made with alchemy, only healing potions are made with herbalism. And "brew" means to make a beverage by mixing a solid with water just as much as it means to make alcohol. Verbage aside, the subject of this thread is mostly about potions ("potion" is mentioned twice as often as "alcohol" in the original post).
So we agree that making special items (as would require a check) are not simple tasks. Good.
As for your final point, hey look rules in the PHB for learning a tool proficiency:
Training
You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. Your DM might allow additional training options.
First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you. The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required.
The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool.
And commoner crafters with non-0 modifiers definitely exist, they just don't get stated often because it is a given that NPC crafters can craft.
bruh check the monster manual in the rules for monsters prior to the first stat block, for all monsters and NPC's their proficiency bonus is based on their challenge rating, with CR 0 monsters like the humble commoner having a +2 proficiency bonus
edit: these rules can be found here if you are interested, point is commoners have a proficiency bonus
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
No. The simplest tasks don't require checks at all. Why would they? Only difficult tasks for which there is a chance of failure require checks.
And NPCs can train and improve in ways that players don't. Classes and everything else in the PHB are for players, NPCs are just generated with the stats they need to fill their role. If you need an NPC that brews fancy whatevers with no chance of failure, generate it with expertise with the tool and a +4 in the relevant stat.
Learning only requires time and a teacher, no checks.
Someone else can find ingredients or farm them, no checks.
Then buy the tools.
And again "simple tasks" do not have checks. This thread is not about simple tasks. We already established that several times, you even agreed.
I really don't understand the point of worrying about whether brewing mechanics make it harder for NPCs to brew. If an NPC needs to brew something, the DM just makes it happen. These brewing mechanics were clearly designed for PCs to use.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Intelligence*