I've seen lots of fights over the internet about whose better, Wizard or Sorcerer? Most people say Wizard, but I want a good solid response. I also added Warlock for the sake that I like using melee cantrips and the ones in SCAG are for Warlocks Wizards and Sorcerers. So people out there! What's the best in overall utility? Warlock, Wizard, or Sorcerer?
You said this:
“I've seen lots of fights over the internet about whose better, Wizard or Sorcerer? Most people say Wizard, but I want a good solid response. I also added Warlock for the sake that I like using melee cantrips and the ones in SCAG are for Warlocks Wizards and Sorcerers. So people out there! What's the best in overall utility? Warlock, Wizard, or Sorcerer?”
The Question: “What's the best in overall utility?“
The Answer: The best class of Sorcerer, Warlock it Wizard is quite easily the wizard and I’ll give a breakdown why for each class.
Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is a person who draws their power from within their body, mind, or soul as their power is inherent or gained.
Spellcasting: The Sorcerers spell list is well just fine it isn’t great, large, or vast as the Wizards nor is it that small or restricted it’s just fine. The Sorcerers spells slots are all just like the wizards. Additionally, the sorcerer when compared to the amount of spells the Wizards has access to as in have prepared is minimal and sadly just pitiful.
Origin: I find just like the warlocks subclasses that a large portions of the sorcerers subclasses are ether underwhelming, boring, or not good enough. I’m not saying they don’t have good subclasses I’m saying they don’t have many.
Meta Magic: The Sorcerers metamagic is well how do I say this... not that great. Ok, ok, there are definitely some good ones but ether than those they are well underwhelming. I will say without metamagic this class would lack a lot of versatility and much needed utility.
Warlock: The Warlock is a person who draws their power from an other being ranging from celestials to devils; the warlock’s power is acquired from a pact with such an otherworldly being.
Pact Magic: The Warlocks spell list is small though I must say their are some goodies mostly hex and Eldritch blast but those aside the selection may not be good as the wizard but it’s decent as best. The Warlocks spell slots are well... disappointing even more so when you look at invocations and some of them take up your limited and valuable spells.
Pact: The Warlocks subclasses are mostly underwhelming (to me) just like the sorcerers origins/bloodlines; the warlock though does have some hidden gems I find like the hex blade and the fiend being among them.
Invocations: The Warlocks invocations just like the sorcerers metamagic adds well needed variety and versatility but not as much when compared to the abundant amount of spells that the wizard wields.
Wizard: The Wizard is a person who draws their power from their mind as they study the magics of the universe gaining spells through their pursuit of knowledge.
Spellcasting: The Wizards spell list is the largest of all having well over three hundred different spells to choose from as you climb up to higher levels. The Wizards spell slots are copious and useful as they will be used to their utmost utility.
School: The Wizard not only has a large amount of subclasses but powerful ones too like Divination, Chronurgy, War magic, and sometimes even Bladesinger just to name a few. The best of which are Divination and Chronurgy with their roll manipulation that can lead to many advantageous positions.
Spell Book: Allows to transcribe and record spells from various sources allowing for increased versatility and firepower as more spells are deciphered/uncovered/discovered.
The Conclusion: As shown above the wizards versatility, utility, and vast resources beat out the warlocks invocations and the sorcerers meta magic. Additionally, the warlocks, and sorcerers subclasses do not compare to the large amount and powerful choices of the wizards subclasses.
Side Note: If it where a battle between the three in a min max lvl 20 one class only situation I think the wizard would dominate under almost any circumstances. But that is a whole other discussion in which I’ve no doubt the wizard would win (Haha).
So at the moment I am playing a lvl 7 Warlock, Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome. I have 6 Cantrips
10 Ritual Spells
8 Spells known 2 lvl 5 Spell slots
At the same level a Wizard has 4 Cantrips Spells known for that day depend on Int mod + wizard lvl 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4 plus any ritual spells they have picked up.
A Sorceror has the following 5 Cantrips 8 Spells known 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
Warlock has more hit points, gets all spell slots back on a short rest (which if your using hex, that is up for 8hrs and will last through the short rest). Using cantrips and invocations can either stay back blasting or fight up front. Due to the ritual spells has a lot of utility and high Charisma makes RP potential huge (I say potential, but despite my 20 Cha, I always roll badly in RP situations). In nearly 2 years of campaigns, I have been dropped to 0hp once. But that is me, you could start playing a Warlock a 100 times and play a different Warlock each time. For me a Warlock is good at everything and great at nothing, they are the swiss army knife of casters.
So at the moment I am playing a lvl 7 Warlock, Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome. I have 6 Cantrips
10 Ritual Spells
8 Spells known 2 lvl 5 Spell slots
At the same level a Wizard has 4 Cantrips Spells known for that day depend on Int mod + wizard lvl 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4 plus any ritual spells they have picked up.
A Sorceror has the following 5 Cantrips 8 Spells known 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
Warlock has more hit points, gets all spell slots back on a short rest (which if your using hex, that is up for 8hrs and will last through the short rest). Using cantrips and invocations can either stay back blasting or fight up front. Due to the ritual spells has a lot of utility and high Charisma makes RP potential huge (I say potential, but despite my 20 Cha, I always roll badly in RP situations). In nearly 2 years of campaigns, I have been dropped to 0hp once. But that is me, you could start playing a Warlock a 100 times and play a different Warlock each time. For me a Warlock is good at everything and great at nothing, they are the swiss army knife of casters.
First point:
”So at the moment I am playing a lvl 7 Warlock, Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome. I have 6 Cantrips
10 Ritual Spells
8 Spells known 2 lvl 5 Spell slots”
Answer: First of all you should at 7th level have two 4th level spell slots not two 5th level. Knowing only eight spell is well just fine (when compared to sorcerer as you have the same). And the invocation for adding ritual spells starts off with two spells of 1st level, and that means you found 8 ritual spells (if none of your know spells are ritual). Also it anecdotal but whatever I guess? Additionally, not only is a Wizards spellbook on par with your tome but it is better as it’s not limited to rituals but all spells.
Second point:
“At the same level a Wizard has 4 Cantrips Spells known for that day depend on Int mod + wizard lvl 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4 plus any ritual spells they have picked up.”
Answer: Wn average int mod at 7th level if they put their A.S.I into an int boost is 18 that means they have at least 11 spells prepared [P.S you said you have a 20 in cha (your Spellcasting score) so if the wizard had 20 int that means he could prepare 12 spells. Also there is Arcane Recovery to regain 4 levels of spells slots. Also when you say “plus any ritual spells they have picked up.” it not just ritual spells the wizard can scribe into his book any spell.
Third point:
A Sorceror has the following 5 Cantrips 8 Spells known 11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
Answer: Yep, though then again with sorcerer points the sorcerer has 7 to be made into spells or used for metamagic (don’t forgot he can de/reconstruct spells and form them into larger/smaller spell slots for extra utility).
Fourth point:
”Warlock has more hit points”
Answer: A higher hit dice (d8 to a d6) but that doesn’t matter if the con mod is bad as your warlock could have a bad con then the wizard a higher con or perhaps like you said a good con but that still doesn’t mean the Wizard doesn’t have a great con (Wizards aren’t all squishy just some haha).
Fifth point:
“gets all spell slots back on a short rest (which if your using hex, that is up for 8hrs and will last through the short rest).”
Answer: With the short rest thing, sorcerer has sorcery points and a good amount of spells slots same goes for wizard but they have arcane recovery (kinda better in a way than sorcery in just level capacity). With hex lasting through 8 hours you that you using one of your 4th level slots leaving you with one cast it on a creature and it lasts for 8hrs (I guess you could do that though it would be weird as you would need a hex target then kill that target to as a bonus action place it on another creature, so I guess you could keep a caged rat and do that but yeah sure... if that’s what you mean).
Sixth point:
“Using cantrips and invocations can either stay back blasting or fight up front.“
Answer: well you can “ether stay back blasting or fight up front.” but it’s better to choose to be ether ranged or melee and as you are a fiend pact of the time I think you do a lot of blasting. The only time where you would be viable for ether blasting from range and melee is if your Hexblade pact of the blade as you can hold your own in melee and if your hurt pull back and sling some Eldritch blasts.
Seventh point:
“Due to the ritual spells has a lot of utility and high Charisma makes RP potential huge (I say potential, but despite my 20 Cha, I always roll badly in RP situations).”
Answer: Wizard also has potentially almost all of rituals so same goes for him and spells (the wizard has) can also tilt the RP table the wizards way.
Eighth point:
“In nearly 2 years of campaigns, I have been dropped to 0hp once. But that is me, you could start playing a Warlock a 100 times and play a different Warlock each time. For me a Warlock is good at everything and great at nothing, they are the swiss army knife of casters.”
Answer: With the never been dropped once I’ll use your own words “But that is me” so ether you do have great con, lucky, the other players are more threatening, or your just in the back away from the damage. I agree with the repayable aspect but that goes for almost any class especially casters as you can go to certain themes and the like. Lastly, with the warlock being a “swiss army knife of casters” i agree but not as much if you said wizard. A Wizards spell selection is insurmountable and great as I has over three hundred spells to choose from being the largest spell list out their.
TL:DR: Warlock has 2, 4th level slots not 5th level, and pact of time isn’t as good compared to wizards spellbook. Wizard has spellbook (better than Pact of time + Invocation) and arcane recovery more spell slots on short rest. Sorcerer has sorcery points to control spell slot levels. Warlocks are good but wizards better and sorcerers are meh.
One typo lol Yes I meant 2 lvl 4, I was tired and I won't edit the post to make yours look rubbish lol The main point I was trying to make is my experience as a Warlock is that they can be as useful and in some situations more useful than either Sorceror or Wizard. For example in our current game I am the only one who has spell slots due to the short rests. With the addition of a couple of magical items I have a +10 to hit with Eldritch Blast (which has saved my ass too many times when rolling badly). The fighting up front or blasting from the back relies on a couple of things, Hex and Armour of Agathys. Hex combined with Eldritch Blast/Agonising Blast gives me (on a hit anyway) 1d10+5+1d6 per shot which as a cantrip is consistent damage every round (as long as I hit lol). The upfront damage, Armour of Agathys gives anyone that hits you with melee 20 cold damage and then I either have Green Flame blade on my scimitar giving me 1d6+3+1d8 plus 1d8+5 to a second target. Arcane recovery is only once per day, and there are only so many sorcery points available in a day. If you go through several encounters in a game day (this has happened over the last six sessions for us, day 6 in the dungeon and it is only lunchtime lol) you have to have a lot of short rests, I am the only one left with spell slots.
Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run, there is no apples to apples comparison. Most of the comments here are trying to compare the baseline without taking into consideration anything else that happens in a game, such as magic items, finding spell books etc
One typo lol Yes I meant 2 lvl 4, I was tired and I won't edit the post to make yours look rubbish lol The main point I was trying to make is my experience as a Warlock is that they can be as useful and in some situations more useful than either Sorceror or Wizard. For example in our current game I am the only one who has spell slots due to the short rests. With the addition of a couple of magical items I have a +10 to hit with Eldritch Blast (which has saved my ass too many times when rolling badly). The fighting up front or blasting from the back relies on a couple of things, Hex and Armour of Agathys. Hex combined with Eldritch Blast/Agonising Blast gives me (on a hit anyway) 1d10+5+1d6 per shot which as a cantrip is consistent damage every round (as long as I hit lol). The upfront damage, Armour of Agathys gives anyone that hits you with melee 20 cold damage and then I either have Green Flame blade on my scimitar giving me 1d6+3+1d8 plus 1d8+5 to a second target. Arcane recovery is only once per day, and there are only so many sorcery points available in a day. If you go through several encounters in a game day (this has happened over the last six sessions for us, day 6 in the dungeon and it is only lunchtime lol) you have to have a lot of short rests, I am the only one left with spell slots.
Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run, there is no apples to apples comparison. Most of the comments here are trying to compare the baseline without taking into consideration anything else that happens in a game, such as magic items, finding spell books etc
First point:
“One typo lol Yes I meant 2 lvl 4, I was tired and I won't edit the post to make yours look rubbish lol“
Answer: Haha yeah.
Second point:
“The main point I was trying to make is my experience as a Warlock is that they can be as useful and in some situations more useful than either Sorceror or Wizard.”
Answer: Ehhhhh... I can see more useful than sorcerer but Wizard you’d be hard pressed to get a build to out useful a wizard and his spellbook (which can just as your Pact Tome gain spells which I might add aren’t just normal spells). But I do not disagree that a correctly built warlock could potentially out useful a wizard (no matter how much it pains my soul to say that). But then sorcerers do have subtle spell which adds lots of RP moments (though personally I feel sorcerers are bad I must acknowledge their... metamagic/sorcery points).
Third point:
“For example in our current game I am the only one who has spell slots due to the short rests.”
Answer: That’s just play style as I guess your group doesn’t conserve spell slots as well as I would or others. Additionally, if a wizard or sorcerer conserve slots using them to the best of their ability they can last awhile (especially, with sorcery points, and arcane recovery). Just saying if a sorcerer makes all of his spell slots and sorcery points into 4th level spell slots he gets a total of 7 with 3 sorcery points left so yeah. Also if the sorcerer would convert all spell slots into sorcery points he would have 45 points.
Fouth point:
“With the addition of a couple of magical items I have a +10 to hit with Eldritch Blast (which has saved my ass too many times when rolling badly).”
Answer: So if you have a Proficiency of +3 and a Cha of +5 (20) that means your magic item increase your to hit by +2. Also getting magic items is merely anecdotal as you could get that item while the wizard could get the same it just depends on the game.
Fifth point:
“The fighting up front or blasting from the back relies on a couple of things, Hex and Armour of Agathys. Hex combined with Eldritch Blast/Agonising Blast gives me (on a hit anyway) 1d10+5+1d6 per shot which as a cantrip is consistent damage every round (as long as I hit lol).“
Answer: Yes Eldritch Blast is I great blasting cantrip I just think even with Armor of Agathys you wouldn’t be as great as a normal martial class. Unless you were a Hexblade with pact of the blade then you would perhaps become on par with a martial class. Also with armor of agathys and hex right there you used all of your spells and it would take two turns to do this as of how the bonus action spells and actions spells act.
Sixth point:
“The upfront damage, Armour of Agathys gives anyone that hits you with melee 20 cold damage and then I either have Green Flame blade on my scimitar giving me 1d6+3+1d8 plus 1d8+5 to a second target.“
Answer: Armor of Agathys yes 20 cold damage is unite a bit but many creatures can deal over 20 temp hp in one hit when at 7th level though it depends on your game and DM. With Green Flame Blade when compared to using Eldritch Blast along with hex and invocations it pales in comparison especially when not a Hexblade build.
Seventh point:
“Arcane recovery is only once per day, and there are only so many sorcery points available in a day.”
Answer: True but the amount of spells they have in bulk kinda beat the warlocks spell especially when you consider that you expend one of your two spell slots for hex using a 4th level spell for a level one spell (and yes the upcast is disappointing). But this fully just depends on the game or DM as if the DM has over like four encounters a day (four short rests) than yes the warlock could be better but that still depends on the sorcerer and wizard and how they relegate their features or spells (ie cantrips, save larger spells for later, etc).
Eighth point:
“If you go through several encounters in a game day (this has happened over the last six sessions for us, day 6 in the dungeon and it is only lunchtime lol) you have to have a lot of short rests, I am the only one left with spell slots.”
Answer: Anecdotal, and depends on the DM and how the players relegate their spells and features (Also if the DM does multiple encounters a day and your players still haven’t become good at relegating their spells I say it’s their fault). Also maybe they are using their spell slots so much could be that the DM has difficult encounters so they have to use more of their spells slots while you stand back hex and else oh blast while that use their big spells so no one gets hurt.
Nineth point:
“Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run, there is no apples to apples comparison.”
Answer: When you say “Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run” yeah true especially if your DM does a multiple encounter say (more than say 4 encounters should expend a normal wizards spells). Well it depends on the apples haha but sure.
Tenth point:
”Most of the comments here are trying to compare the baseline without taking into consideration anything else that happens in a game, such as magic items, finding spell books etc”
Answer: When you put magic items and finding spell books yeah it changes things. But when you compare gaining a spellbook with a warlock compared to a wizard the wizard benefits more as he can make more use of it. Additionally, the reason most don’t take magic items into account is that adds so much variables even though they are helpful it fully depends on the DM.
I'm beginning a new campaign soon, and was contemplating between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can someone talk about the differences in what actual spells each get to use? I understand how the threads above talk about the spell slots vs power source/playing style, but do all three classes have the same pool for spells to use?
No. Wizards by far have the bigger spell list, and they get to prepare spells daily and get more prepared spells than the others get to know between the three.
I'm beginning a new campaign soon, and was contemplating between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can someone talk about the differences in what actual spells each get to use?
Answer: Personally out of the two I favour the wizard if you were to choose.
Now if you want to see for yourself about the spell list differences DND Beyond and some other websites are great to see how many spells and what types each have. As for the actual differences and for saving time (as listing off each spell that each caster has that the other doesn’t would be a large hassle) you can if you want compare the size of spells available between the two. By comparing the size of each classes spell list you’ll see a great disparity in amount of spells as the wizard holds the most amount of spells to choose from (of which their are many unique and powerful spell choices among the lot).
Additionally, as for how each class attains spells the sorcerer is much more fixed having a set amount of learned spells while the wizard can theoretically learn all the spells (I think there is upwards of 300 spells total) from his spell list and inscribe them into his spellbook(s).
I understand how the threads above talk about the spell slots vs power source/playing style, but do all three classes have the same pool for spells to use?
Answer: No they do not have the same spell lists though you will find many similarities as they all are arcane casters. Each spell list has it speciality (mostly) as with a warlock you’ll find things like ELDRITCH BLAST, and hex (among others of course), while sorcerer has its own spells, and wizard the same having its own (though having lots!).
I'm beginning a new campaign soon, and was contemplating between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can someone talk about the differences in what actual spells each get to use? I understand how the threads above talk about the spell slots vs power source/playing style, but do all three classes have the same pool for spells to use?
The wizard has the largest spell list and there is a lot of overlap with other casters as a result. They have essentially every utility spell, most of the damaging spells, a few area denial/crowd control spells, and 1 or 2 buff/debuffs. No heals.
Warlocks have a good mix of buff/debuff, area denial/crowed control, damage, and utility spells. The problem is they can only cast 2 between naps (until high level then it goes up to 3 then 4), which makes them pretty bad at utility. There is a reason they are best known for eldritch blast, it is free and does more damage than using a slot most of the time.
Sorcerers have mostly a limited version of the wizard spell list with none of the utility, 2/3rds the damage spells, 1/2 the crowed control, and gains a small sprinkling of cleric and bard support spells to fill it back out. They make up for it by having an extra cantrip and using metamagic to make the spells they have slightly better a few times.
They all have very different spell lists and play very differently besides just their spells (sorcerers and warlocks have useful class features).
If this is your first time playing a spellcaster character, I recommend cleric. Depending on subclass, they can be tanky magic swordsmen or powerful spell slingers. They know all their spells and can change them daily, so are very friendly to trial and error.
I don't understand why people don't just read the rules. coffeelocks do not work. sleep does not affect rest. all characters need a long rest or they will suffer exhaustion. Elves, warforged, warlocks that don't need to sleep, they all still need a long rest. If you go the route of having a high level cleric cast restoration on you to remove your exhaustion, then the amount of energy and resources you are putting into getting these spell slots can literally just be used to create or buy magic items that do the same thing... Not to mention the safety net of there being a literal god of magic whose sole purpose is to keep balance in the weave and repair it. Mystra is literally the reason mages are less powerful now so why on earth would she not step in and say "no this is too much power for a mortal to have."...
I don't understand why people don't just read the rules. coffeelocks do not work. sleep does not affect rest. all characters need a long rest or they will suffer exhaustion. Elves, warforged, warlocks that don't need to sleep, they all still need a long rest. If you go the route of having a high level cleric cast restoration on you to remove your exhaustion, then the amount of energy and resources you are putting into getting these spell slots can literally just be used to create or buy magic items that do the same thing... Not to mention the safety net of there being a literal god of magic whose sole purpose is to keep balance in the weave and repair it. Mystra is literally the reason mages are less powerful now so why on earth would she not step in and say "no this is too much power for a mortal to have."...
Coffeelock can be a fun quirk if you only do it for one long rest.
I have a Sorlock with 5 levels of each, and (with the DM's approval) I've done the coffeelock mechanic but only for one long rest before a large boss fight. As a base sorcerer, I have a really high chance of beating a DC 15 Con save from missing that first night's sleep, and even if I don't, one level of exhaustion isn't that crippling in combat, and the extra slots really let my character do a lot of party buffs.
Narratively, it's flavored as my character pushing her magical abilities into overdrive at the expense of her own life force.
As to the original question posted in the thread, I do enjoy all three classes but tend to gravitate more towards Warlocks and Sorcerers. Wizards are fun but it's really easy to suffer from choice paralysis, and most players will have a set rotation of spells they use most often with others becoming fringe use cases. I also tend to RP party faces or highly deceptive characters, so I enjoy having the higher charisma.
I think where coffeelock would run into the biggest problem is if we interpret some of the game rules in the following way:
First, completing a long rest has many benefits. But in addition to the ones that we typically think of, there is this: "Adventurers, as well as other creatures, can take short rests in the midst of a day and a long rest to end it." This may seem like sort of a throwaway line in the rules but it actually has mechanical consequences -- a long rest ends an adventuring day. Although the concept of an adventuring day might seem arbitrary, the DMG actually uses this exact term in very precise ways. There is an entire section of the DMG called "The Adventuring Day" which describes how a DM should attempt to balance encounters -- how many encounters per day can be handled and how difficult those encounters should be. So the adventuring day is a somewhat important concept in the game and it is not based on the game world's calendar, it is based on ending the day by completing a long rest (for example, there are variant resting rules which tweak how much in game time passes between and during rests).
With that in mind, we also have travel rules and the concept of the forced march: "The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion." So, the exhaustion penalty is not really related to missing a long rest, per se. It is related to extending the adventuring day. In this case it talks about attempting to "travel" for more than 8 hours in the same adventuring day. Now, I can see that rules lawyers will get hung up on the use of the word "travel" here and say that the rule only applies to "travelling", but in my opinion it is extremely reasonable for a DM to apply this same rule to any and all strenuous adventuring activities, such as the ones that are not allowed during resting.
So, once we have a DM who decides on the above interpretation of the travel rules, then we have this: "For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion."
Now we have a situation where additional adventuring becomes difficult very quickly. Every hour a check is made and that check becomes more and more difficult every hour. Levels of exhaustion accumulate very quickly. To bring it full circle, the only way to reset the clock on all of that is to end the adventuring day and the only way to do that is to successfully take a long rest.
exhaustion is used the same way it is viewed in real life. if its too hot out or too cold, if you are very hungry, if you exert yourself, if you do not sleep, it isn't a single mechanic for a few niche things.
Power is relative. The most utility? The most damage per round? The most useful to a party? The best able to handle social machinations of a political game? The best able to handle multiple situations? Define "better"
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Wizard is the best in terms of just all around utility. I personally am a fan of the Abjurer specifically, as it makes you less squishy and still lets you cast fun spells like Fireball
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You said this:
“I've seen lots of fights over the internet about whose better, Wizard or Sorcerer? Most people say Wizard, but I want a good solid response. I also added Warlock for the sake that I like using melee cantrips and the ones in SCAG are for Warlocks Wizards and Sorcerers. So people out there! What's the best in overall utility? Warlock, Wizard, or Sorcerer?”
The Question: “What's the best in overall utility?“
The Answer: The best class of Sorcerer, Warlock it Wizard is quite easily the wizard and I’ll give a breakdown why for each class.
Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is a person who draws their power from within their body, mind, or soul as their power is inherent or gained.
Spellcasting: The Sorcerers spell list is well just fine it isn’t great, large, or vast as the Wizards nor is it that small or restricted it’s just fine. The Sorcerers spells slots are all just like the wizards. Additionally, the sorcerer when compared to the amount of spells the Wizards has access to as in have prepared is minimal and sadly just pitiful.
Origin: I find just like the warlocks subclasses that a large portions of the sorcerers subclasses are ether underwhelming, boring, or not good enough. I’m not saying they don’t have good subclasses I’m saying they don’t have many.
Meta Magic: The Sorcerers metamagic is well how do I say this... not that great. Ok, ok, there are definitely some good ones but ether than those they are well underwhelming. I will say without metamagic this class would lack a lot of versatility and much needed utility.
Warlock: The Warlock is a person who draws their power from an other being ranging from celestials to devils; the warlock’s power is acquired from a pact with such an otherworldly being.
Pact Magic: The Warlocks spell list is small though I must say their are some goodies mostly hex and Eldritch blast but those aside the selection may not be good as the wizard but it’s decent as best. The Warlocks spell slots are well... disappointing even more so when you look at invocations and some of them take up your limited and valuable spells.
Pact: The Warlocks subclasses are mostly underwhelming (to me) just like the sorcerers origins/bloodlines; the warlock though does have some hidden gems I find like the hex blade and the fiend being among them.
Invocations: The Warlocks invocations just like the sorcerers metamagic adds well needed variety and versatility but not as much when compared to the abundant amount of spells that the wizard wields.
Wizard: The Wizard is a person who draws their power from their mind as they study the magics of the universe gaining spells through their pursuit of knowledge.
Spellcasting: The Wizards spell list is the largest of all having well over three hundred different spells to choose from as you climb up to higher levels. The Wizards spell slots are copious and useful as they will be used to their utmost utility.
School: The Wizard not only has a large amount of subclasses but powerful ones too like Divination, Chronurgy, War magic, and sometimes even Bladesinger just to name a few. The best of which are Divination and Chronurgy with their roll manipulation that can lead to many advantageous positions.
Spell Book: Allows to transcribe and record spells from various sources allowing for increased versatility and firepower as more spells are deciphered/uncovered/discovered.
The Conclusion: As shown above the wizards versatility, utility, and vast resources beat out the warlocks invocations and the sorcerers meta magic. Additionally, the warlocks, and sorcerers subclasses do not compare to the large amount and powerful choices of the wizards subclasses.
Side Note: If it where a battle between the three in a min max lvl 20 one class only situation I think the wizard would dominate under almost any circumstances. But that is a whole other discussion in which I’ve no doubt the wizard would win (Haha).
Warlock could be the best ritual caster when taking the Book of Ancient Secrets. Ritual casting can provide a lot of utility outside the combat.
So at the moment I am playing a lvl 7 Warlock, Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome.
I have 6 Cantrips
10 Ritual Spells
8 Spells known
2 lvl 5 Spell slots
At the same level a Wizard has
4 Cantrips
Spells known for that day depend on Int mod + wizard lvl
11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
plus any ritual spells they have picked up.
A Sorceror has the following
5 Cantrips
8 Spells known
11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
Warlock has more hit points, gets all spell slots back on a short rest (which if your using hex, that is up for 8hrs and will last through the short rest). Using cantrips and invocations can either stay back blasting or fight up front. Due to the ritual spells has a lot of utility and high Charisma makes RP potential huge (I say potential, but despite my 20 Cha, I always roll badly in RP situations). In nearly 2 years of campaigns, I have been dropped to 0hp once.
But that is me, you could start playing a Warlock a 100 times and play a different Warlock each time. For me a Warlock is good at everything and great at nothing, they are the swiss army knife of casters.
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
First point:
”So at the moment I am playing a lvl 7 Warlock, Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome.
I have 6 Cantrips
10 Ritual Spells
8 Spells known
2 lvl 5 Spell slots”
Answer: First of all you should at 7th level have two 4th level spell slots not two 5th level. Knowing only eight spell is well just fine (when compared to sorcerer as you have the same). And the invocation for adding ritual spells starts off with two spells of 1st level, and that means you found 8 ritual spells (if none of your know spells are ritual). Also it anecdotal but whatever I guess? Additionally, not only is a Wizards spellbook on par with your tome but it is better as it’s not limited to rituals but all spells.
Second point:
“At the same level a Wizard has
4 Cantrips
Spells known for that day depend on Int mod + wizard lvl
11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
plus any ritual spells they have picked up.”
Answer: Wn average int mod at 7th level if they put their A.S.I into an int boost is 18 that means they have at least 11 spells prepared [P.S you said you have a 20 in cha (your Spellcasting score) so if the wizard had 20 int that means he could prepare 12 spells. Also there is Arcane Recovery to regain 4 levels of spells slots. Also when you say “plus any ritual spells they have picked up.” it not just ritual spells the wizard can scribe into his book any spell.
Third point:
A Sorceror has the following
5 Cantrips
8 Spells known
11 Spell slots 4x lvl1, 3x lvl2, 3x lvl3 1x lvl4
Answer: Yep, though then again with sorcerer points the sorcerer has 7 to be made into spells or used for metamagic (don’t forgot he can de/reconstruct spells and form them into larger/smaller spell slots for extra utility).
Fourth point:
”Warlock has more hit points”
Answer: A higher hit dice (d8 to a d6) but that doesn’t matter if the con mod is bad as your warlock could have a bad con then the wizard a higher con or perhaps like you said a good con but that still doesn’t mean the Wizard doesn’t have a great con (Wizards aren’t all squishy just some haha).
Fifth point:
“gets all spell slots back on a short rest (which if your using hex, that is up for 8hrs and will last through the short rest).”
Answer: With the short rest thing, sorcerer has sorcery points and a good amount of spells slots same goes for wizard but they have arcane recovery (kinda better in a way than sorcery in just level capacity). With hex lasting through 8 hours you that you using one of your 4th level slots leaving you with one cast it on a creature and it lasts for 8hrs (I guess you could do that though it would be weird as you would need a hex target then kill that target to as a bonus action place it on another creature, so I guess you could keep a caged rat and do that but yeah sure... if that’s what you mean).
Sixth point:
“Using cantrips and invocations can either stay back blasting or fight up front.“
Answer: well you can “ether stay back blasting or fight up front.” but it’s better to choose to be ether ranged or melee and as you are a fiend pact of the time I think you do a lot of blasting. The only time where you would be viable for ether blasting from range and melee is if your Hexblade pact of the blade as you can hold your own in melee and if your hurt pull back and sling some Eldritch blasts.
Seventh point:
“Due to the ritual spells has a lot of utility and high Charisma makes RP potential huge (I say potential, but despite my 20 Cha, I always roll badly in RP situations).”
Answer: Wizard also has potentially almost all of rituals so same goes for him and spells (the wizard has) can also tilt the RP table the wizards way.
Eighth point:
“In nearly 2 years of campaigns, I have been dropped to 0hp once. But that is me, you could start playing a Warlock a 100 times and play a different Warlock each time. For me a Warlock is good at everything and great at nothing, they are the swiss army knife of casters.”
Answer: With the never been dropped once I’ll use your own words “But that is me” so ether you do have great con, lucky, the other players are more threatening, or your just in the back away from the damage. I agree with the repayable aspect but that goes for almost any class especially casters as you can go to certain themes and the like. Lastly, with the warlock being a “swiss army knife of casters” i agree but not as much if you said wizard. A Wizards spell selection is insurmountable and great as I has over three hundred spells to choose from being the largest spell list out their.
TL:DR: Warlock has 2, 4th level slots not 5th level, and pact of time isn’t as good compared to wizards spellbook. Wizard has spellbook (better than Pact of time + Invocation) and arcane recovery more spell slots on short rest. Sorcerer has sorcery points to control spell slot levels. Warlocks are good but wizards better and sorcerers are meh.
One typo lol
Yes I meant 2 lvl 4, I was tired and I won't edit the post to make yours look rubbish lol
The main point I was trying to make is my experience as a Warlock is that they can be as useful and in some situations more useful than either Sorceror or Wizard. For example in our current game I am the only one who has spell slots due to the short rests. With the addition of a couple of magical items I have a +10 to hit with Eldritch Blast (which has saved my ass too many times when rolling badly). The fighting up front or blasting from the back relies on a couple of things, Hex and Armour of Agathys. Hex combined with Eldritch Blast/Agonising Blast gives me (on a hit anyway) 1d10+5+1d6 per shot which as a cantrip is consistent damage every round (as long as I hit lol). The upfront damage, Armour of Agathys gives anyone that hits you with melee 20 cold damage and then I either have Green Flame blade on my scimitar giving me 1d6+3+1d8 plus 1d8+5 to a second target.
Arcane recovery is only once per day, and there are only so many sorcery points available in a day. If you go through several encounters in a game day (this has happened over the last six sessions for us, day 6 in the dungeon and it is only lunchtime lol) you have to have a lot of short rests, I am the only one left with spell slots.
Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run, there is no apples to apples comparison. Most of the comments here are trying to compare the baseline without taking into consideration anything else that happens in a game, such as magic items, finding spell books etc
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
First point:
“One typo lol
Yes I meant 2 lvl 4, I was tired and I won't edit the post to make yours look rubbish lol“
Answer: Haha yeah.
Second point:
“The main point I was trying to make is my experience as a Warlock is that they can be as useful and in some situations more useful than either Sorceror or Wizard.”
Answer: Ehhhhh... I can see more useful than sorcerer but Wizard you’d be hard pressed to get a build to out useful a wizard and his spellbook (which can just as your Pact Tome gain spells which I might add aren’t just normal spells). But I do not disagree that a correctly built warlock could potentially out useful a wizard (no matter how much it pains my soul to say that). But then sorcerers do have subtle spell which adds lots of RP moments (though personally I feel sorcerers are bad I must acknowledge their... metamagic/sorcery points).
Third point:
“For example in our current game I am the only one who has spell slots due to the short rests.”
Answer: That’s just play style as I guess your group doesn’t conserve spell slots as well as I would or others. Additionally, if a wizard or sorcerer conserve slots using them to the best of their ability they can last awhile (especially, with sorcery points, and arcane recovery). Just saying if a sorcerer makes all of his spell slots and sorcery points into 4th level spell slots he gets a total of 7 with 3 sorcery points left so yeah. Also if the sorcerer would convert all spell slots into sorcery points he would have 45 points.
Fouth point:
“With the addition of a couple of magical items I have a +10 to hit with Eldritch Blast (which has saved my ass too many times when rolling badly).”
Answer: So if you have a Proficiency of +3 and a Cha of +5 (20) that means your magic item increase your to hit by +2. Also getting magic items is merely anecdotal as you could get that item while the wizard could get the same it just depends on the game.
Fifth point:
“The fighting up front or blasting from the back relies on a couple of things, Hex and Armour of Agathys. Hex combined with Eldritch Blast/Agonising Blast gives me (on a hit anyway) 1d10+5+1d6 per shot which as a cantrip is consistent damage every round (as long as I hit lol).“
Answer: Yes Eldritch Blast is I great blasting cantrip I just think even with Armor of Agathys you wouldn’t be as great as a normal martial class. Unless you were a Hexblade with pact of the blade then you would perhaps become on par with a martial class. Also with armor of agathys and hex right there you used all of your spells and it would take two turns to do this as of how the bonus action spells and actions spells act.
Sixth point:
“The upfront damage, Armour of Agathys gives anyone that hits you with melee 20 cold damage and then I either have Green Flame blade on my scimitar giving me 1d6+3+1d8 plus 1d8+5 to a second target.“
Answer: Armor of Agathys yes 20 cold damage is unite a bit but many creatures can deal over 20 temp hp in one hit when at 7th level though it depends on your game and DM. With Green Flame Blade when compared to using Eldritch Blast along with hex and invocations it pales in comparison especially when not a Hexblade build.
Seventh point:
“Arcane recovery is only once per day, and there are only so many sorcery points available in a day.”
Answer: True but the amount of spells they have in bulk kinda beat the warlocks spell especially when you consider that you expend one of your two spell slots for hex using a 4th level spell for a level one spell (and yes the upcast is disappointing). But this fully just depends on the game or DM as if the DM has over like four encounters a day (four short rests) than yes the warlock could be better but that still depends on the sorcerer and wizard and how they relegate their features or spells (ie cantrips, save larger spells for later, etc).
Eighth point:
“If you go through several encounters in a game day (this has happened over the last six sessions for us, day 6 in the dungeon and it is only lunchtime lol) you have to have a lot of short rests, I am the only one left with spell slots.”
Answer: Anecdotal, and depends on the DM and how the players relegate their spells and features (Also if the DM does multiple encounters a day and your players still haven’t become good at relegating their spells I say it’s their fault). Also maybe they are using their spell slots so much could be that the DM has difficult encounters so they have to use more of their spells slots while you stand back hex and else oh blast while that use their big spells so no one gets hurt.
Nineth point:
“Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run, there is no apples to apples comparison.”
Answer: When you say “Basically it comes down to what you want to play and how your game is run” yeah true especially if your DM does a multiple encounter say (more than say 4 encounters should expend a normal wizards spells). Well it depends on the apples haha but sure.
Tenth point:
”Most of the comments here are trying to compare the baseline without taking into consideration anything else that happens in a game, such as magic items, finding spell books etc”
Answer: When you put magic items and finding spell books yeah it changes things. But when you compare gaining a spellbook with a warlock compared to a wizard the wizard benefits more as he can make more use of it. Additionally, the reason most don’t take magic items into account is that adds so much variables even though they are helpful it fully depends on the DM.
I'm beginning a new campaign soon, and was contemplating between a sorcerer and a wizard. Can someone talk about the differences in what actual spells each get to use? I understand how the threads above talk about the spell slots vs power source/playing style, but do all three classes have the same pool for spells to use?
No. Wizards by far have the bigger spell list, and they get to prepare spells daily and get more prepared spells than the others get to know between the three.
Answer: Personally out of the two I favour the wizard if you were to choose.
Now if you want to see for yourself about the spell list differences DND Beyond and some other websites are great to see how many spells and what types each have. As for the actual differences and for saving time (as listing off each spell that each caster has that the other doesn’t would be a large hassle) you can if you want compare the size of spells available between the two. By comparing the size of each classes spell list you’ll see a great disparity in amount of spells as the wizard holds the most amount of spells to choose from (of which their are many unique and powerful spell choices among the lot).
Additionally, as for how each class attains spells the sorcerer is much more fixed having a set amount of learned spells while the wizard can theoretically learn all the spells (I think there is upwards of 300 spells total) from his spell list and inscribe them into his spellbook(s).
Answer: No they do not have the same spell lists though you will find many similarities as they all are arcane casters. Each spell list has it speciality (mostly) as with a warlock you’ll find things like ELDRITCH BLAST, and hex (among others of course), while sorcerer has its own spells, and wizard the same having its own (though having lots!).
Any more questions do ask.
PS. I bias Wizard as best so ye... Good Luck
The wizard has the largest spell list and there is a lot of overlap with other casters as a result. They have essentially every utility spell, most of the damaging spells, a few area denial/crowd control spells, and 1 or 2 buff/debuffs. No heals.
Warlocks have a good mix of buff/debuff, area denial/crowed control, damage, and utility spells. The problem is they can only cast 2 between naps (until high level then it goes up to 3 then 4), which makes them pretty bad at utility. There is a reason they are best known for eldritch blast, it is free and does more damage than using a slot most of the time.
Sorcerers have mostly a limited version of the wizard spell list with none of the utility, 2/3rds the damage spells, 1/2 the crowed control, and gains a small sprinkling of cleric and bard support spells to fill it back out. They make up for it by having an extra cantrip and using metamagic to make the spells they have slightly better a few times.
They all have very different spell lists and play very differently besides just their spells (sorcerers and warlocks have useful class features).
If this is your first time playing a spellcaster character, I recommend cleric. Depending on subclass, they can be tanky magic swordsmen or powerful spell slingers. They know all their spells and can change them daily, so are very friendly to trial and error.
I don't understand why people don't just read the rules. coffeelocks do not work. sleep does not affect rest. all characters need a long rest or they will suffer exhaustion. Elves, warforged, warlocks that don't need to sleep, they all still need a long rest. If you go the route of having a high level cleric cast restoration on you to remove your exhaustion, then the amount of energy and resources you are putting into getting these spell slots can literally just be used to create or buy magic items that do the same thing... Not to mention the safety net of there being a literal god of magic whose sole purpose is to keep balance in the weave and repair it. Mystra is literally the reason mages are less powerful now so why on earth would she not step in and say "no this is too much power for a mortal to have."...
Coffeelock can be a fun quirk if you only do it for one long rest.
I have a Sorlock with 5 levels of each, and (with the DM's approval) I've done the coffeelock mechanic but only for one long rest before a large boss fight. As a base sorcerer, I have a really high chance of beating a DC 15 Con save from missing that first night's sleep, and even if I don't, one level of exhaustion isn't that crippling in combat, and the extra slots really let my character do a lot of party buffs.
Narratively, it's flavored as my character pushing her magical abilities into overdrive at the expense of her own life force.
As to the original question posted in the thread, I do enjoy all three classes but tend to gravitate more towards Warlocks and Sorcerers. Wizards are fun but it's really easy to suffer from choice paralysis, and most players will have a set rotation of spells they use most often with others becoming fringe use cases. I also tend to RP party faces or highly deceptive characters, so I enjoy having the higher charisma.
I think where coffeelock would run into the biggest problem is if we interpret some of the game rules in the following way:
First, completing a long rest has many benefits. But in addition to the ones that we typically think of, there is this: "Adventurers, as well as other creatures, can take short rests in the midst of a day and a long rest to end it." This may seem like sort of a throwaway line in the rules but it actually has mechanical consequences -- a long rest ends an adventuring day. Although the concept of an adventuring day might seem arbitrary, the DMG actually uses this exact term in very precise ways. There is an entire section of the DMG called "The Adventuring Day" which describes how a DM should attempt to balance encounters -- how many encounters per day can be handled and how difficult those encounters should be. So the adventuring day is a somewhat important concept in the game and it is not based on the game world's calendar, it is based on ending the day by completing a long rest (for example, there are variant resting rules which tweak how much in game time passes between and during rests).
With that in mind, we also have travel rules and the concept of the forced march: "The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion." So, the exhaustion penalty is not really related to missing a long rest, per se. It is related to extending the adventuring day. In this case it talks about attempting to "travel" for more than 8 hours in the same adventuring day. Now, I can see that rules lawyers will get hung up on the use of the word "travel" here and say that the rule only applies to "travelling", but in my opinion it is extremely reasonable for a DM to apply this same rule to any and all strenuous adventuring activities, such as the ones that are not allowed during resting.
So, once we have a DM who decides on the above interpretation of the travel rules, then we have this: "For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion."
Now we have a situation where additional adventuring becomes difficult very quickly. Every hour a check is made and that check becomes more and more difficult every hour. Levels of exhaustion accumulate very quickly. To bring it full circle, the only way to reset the clock on all of that is to end the adventuring day and the only way to do that is to successfully take a long rest.
exhaustion is used the same way it is viewed in real life. if its too hot out or too cold, if you are very hungry, if you exert yourself, if you do not sleep, it isn't a single mechanic for a few niche things.
Wizards are best.
Best spells
LOVE wizards
FIREBALL!!!!!
(this comment is biased)
"Big sword, bigger brain"
-BigBrainGoblin
Power is relative. The most utility? The most damage per round? The most useful to a party? The best able to handle social machinations of a political game? The best able to handle multiple situations? Define "better"
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Wizard is the best in terms of just all around utility. I personally am a fan of the Abjurer specifically, as it makes you less squishy and still lets you cast fun spells like Fireball