I read a lot of the Elven lore and the basic rules but seem to be missing an important detail. With regard to Trance:
"Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
What does a semiconscious state mean for a party that is resting? Does an Elf in Trance state still have a passive perception or is it at disadvantage? My apologies if I missed something obvious, I was in a trance when I wrote this and while meditating on the rules....
This question is one that was always under the guise of being completely up to the DM, if memory serves, since there wasn't an official ruling on it a few years ago in regards to a character's state of consciousness. It's been years since I remember reading about the issue, but to my knowledge there are/were no strict rules involving the state of 'Trance' and the Elf's perception. I think, collectively, the information around the internet seemed to suggest that you could either be put at Disadvantage for Perception checks while Tranced, or would take a -5 Penalty to your Passive Perception (using that instead) versus approaching creatures, and possibly a higher penalty if they (the intruders) are making attempts to be Stealthy. However, the association of Disadvantage isn't as strict as taking the lesser value of Dice being rolled; I have been at tables where the Disadvantage is merely the Tranced Elf not noticing subtle changes in their environment, but obviously if something makes a noise or walks directly in its line of sight then they would be aware of the intrusion.
Other DMs have even used a variant of the Stunned condition in order to give a tangible guideline for how a Tranced Elf would be affected by hostiles.
I wouldn't imply any penalties or stunned. They're still aware of their surroundings, just thinking more deeply on something. Passive perception, yes, active perception no.
Penalty to passive perception applies to fully unconscious characters.
The Trance is designed to be a benefit so they can still have some awareness instead of sleeping. Applying unconscious-level or stunned-level penalties for something designed as a racial benefit is very harsh.
Basically: they're awake enough to still passively be aware of surroundings, but in deep enough thought they cannot do other light activities like walking around or reading a book.
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I don't think it is very harsh to apply a counterbalance to a strong effect which puts it on par with other game features, like Aspect of the Moon invocation for Warlocks. I think perhaps you're interpreting the concept a bit to narrowly from how we're applying certain penalties or conditions, because it doesn't have to be simply black or white in "harshness". There are any number of variables that can alter these contexts. One of the reasons I stated that DMs have applied a variant of Stunned is because you don't have to take the full penalty of the condition, and that context is only because there is a lack of official, mechanical ruling as to the abilities of the physical state of the Tranced character being semiconscious. Hence variant. You would just apply a reasonable variation of the condition at that point, such as being incapacitated to some extent because you're not supposed to be able to move about to engage in physical activity, but perhaps at least aware enough to readily communicate once something interrupts your Trance.
What you could infer from our pieces of information, as you likely did at the end of your post, is a combination of any aforementioned elements for Trance is allowing them awareness to a degree rather than being fully unconscious which would apply a full penalty. The semiconscious state that it puts their mind into for the 4 hours is also not the same as being fully conscious however, because as you said they're still somewhat passively aware of their surroundings. I tend to think of it more like daydreaming, that you're locked in a reverie so to speak but something could assuredly snap you out of it, but even that can be a case-by-case ordeal.
And those don't even necessarily have to be applied consistently, lol.
The dictionary definition of "stunned" is "a dazed or semiconscious state." So, I think it is a fair reading. Nor do I think it's too harsh on a racial benefit. Elves still get a long rest in half the time.
I wouldn't imply any penalties or stunned. They're still aware of their surroundings, just thinking more deeply on something. Passive perception, yes, active perception no.
Penalty to passive perception applies to fully unconscious characters.
The Trance is designed to be a benefit so they can still have some awareness instead of sleeping. Applying unconscious-level or stunned-level penalties for something designed as a racial benefit is very harsh.
Basically: they're awake enough to still passively be aware of surroundings, but in deep enough thought they cannot do other light activities like walking around or reading a book.
Tables I've played at have treated trance the same as sleep, the benefit was that the Elf was able to participate in more watches while still getting a full rest since they need half the rest time
I wouldn't imply any penalties or stunned. They're still aware of their surroundings, just thinking more deeply on something. Passive perception, yes, active perception no.
Penalty to passive perception applies to fully unconscious characters.
The Trance is designed to be a benefit so they can still have some awareness instead of sleeping. Applying unconscious-level or stunned-level penalties for something designed as a racial benefit is very harsh.
Basically: they're awake enough to still passively be aware of surroundings, but in deep enough thought they cannot do other light activities like walking around or reading a book.
Tables I've played at have treated trance the same as sleep, the benefit was that the Elf was able to participate in more watches while still getting a full rest since they need half the rest time
The problem with that is that sleep is unconscious - whereas Trance is specifically not unconscious - it's semi-conscious - as DxJxC pointed out.
I appreciate the discussion, thank you all. I would agree that disadvantage, for most roles is a good idea, which is better than no rolls. I think Stunned condition is not a good choice unless a specific circumstance applies. If you try to grapple a sleeping MMA fighter, they are not going to auto-fail a strength check, so why would a character who is semi-conscious auto fail? The same goes with a Dex check. I think it would have to be more complicated. Passive perception fail could lead to auto-fail Strength and Dexterity but a pass on perception would bring a Trance state to an end. The DM could decide if disadvantage is given or not depending on the situation.
I appreciate the discussion, thank you all. I would agree that disadvantage, for most roles is a good idea, which is better than no rolls. I think Stunned condition is not a good choice unless a specific circumstance applies. If you try to grapple a sleeping MMA fighter, they are not going to auto-fail a strength check, so why would a character who is semi-conscious auto fail? The same goes with a Dex check. I think it would have to be more complicated. Passive perception fail could lead to auto-fail Strength and Dexterity but a pass on perception would bring a Trance state to an end. The DM could decide if disadvantage is given or not depending on the situation.
You are getting check and save confused. A strength save would be to resist being pushed and a dexterity save would be to dodge. I dont think even an MMA fighter can dodge in their sleep.
Attacks having advantage is due to them being still.
And not being able to take actions is a given.
Stunned honestly fits deep meditation pretty well. With or without perception penalties.
You are absolutely correct, thanks, I did get the two mixed up here...actually, suffering from 2 levels of exhaustion, lol. My 3 year old woke me after only 2 hours of sleep, at 2am, when I wrote that...I might be at level 3 right now. Also, why I am fascinated and envious of Elven Trance.
So ironic, I just read the DnD Beyond article on all the Unearthed Arcana playtest. The Rogue Revived, is hilariously vague in so many ways. Anyone want to double up and tackle this one too?
"Revived Nature 3rd-level Revived feature-Your newfound connection to death gives you the following benefits:
• You have advantage on saving throws against disease and being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
• You don’t need to sleep. When you take a long rest, you must spend at least four hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you remain semiconscious, and you can hear as normal."
So the UA reads to me, you are aware of your surroundings, perception based on hearing has no penalty (I'd probably rule disadvantage on visual perception since anything other than directly in front would require moving your head breaking the rest) if you respond to anything during the 4hours you don't benefit from the rest.
The UA for the new Rogue subclass: "Revived" playtest states: "you remain semiconscious, and you can hear as normal." Which is what I have felt Elven Trance implies. But most of you have more experience playing 5e than me, and honestly, it will be a long time before I pick an Elf anyway, so no biggie. Think my next character is going to be "Khaos, a Firbold Wild Soul Barbarian...because I am obsessed with playing strange race-class combinations. So about that hidden step...lol.
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I read a lot of the Elven lore and the basic rules but seem to be missing an important detail. With regard to Trance:
"Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
What does a semiconscious state mean for a party that is resting? Does an Elf in Trance state still have a passive perception or is it at disadvantage? My apologies if I missed something obvious, I was in a trance when I wrote this and while meditating on the rules....
This question is one that was always under the guise of being completely up to the DM, if memory serves, since there wasn't an official ruling on it a few years ago in regards to a character's state of consciousness. It's been years since I remember reading about the issue, but to my knowledge there are/were no strict rules involving the state of 'Trance' and the Elf's perception. I think, collectively, the information around the internet seemed to suggest that you could either be put at Disadvantage for Perception checks while Tranced, or would take a -5 Penalty to your Passive Perception (using that instead) versus approaching creatures, and possibly a higher penalty if they (the intruders) are making attempts to be Stealthy. However, the association of Disadvantage isn't as strict as taking the lesser value of Dice being rolled; I have been at tables where the Disadvantage is merely the Tranced Elf not noticing subtle changes in their environment, but obviously if something makes a noise or walks directly in its line of sight then they would be aware of the intrusion.
Other DMs have even used a variant of the Stunned condition in order to give a tangible guideline for how a Tranced Elf would be affected by hostiles.
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I use the stunned condition myself.
Stunned and disadvantage on perception sound good to me.
The only thing we really know for sure is that they are not unconscious.
I wouldn't imply any penalties or stunned. They're still aware of their surroundings, just thinking more deeply on something. Passive perception, yes, active perception no.
Penalty to passive perception applies to fully unconscious characters.
The Trance is designed to be a benefit so they can still have some awareness instead of sleeping. Applying unconscious-level or stunned-level penalties for something designed as a racial benefit is very harsh.
Basically: they're awake enough to still passively be aware of surroundings, but in deep enough thought they cannot do other light activities like walking around or reading a book.
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I don't think it is very harsh to apply a counterbalance to a strong effect which puts it on par with other game features, like Aspect of the Moon invocation for Warlocks. I think perhaps you're interpreting the concept a bit to narrowly from how we're applying certain penalties or conditions, because it doesn't have to be simply black or white in "harshness". There are any number of variables that can alter these contexts. One of the reasons I stated that DMs have applied a variant of Stunned is because you don't have to take the full penalty of the condition, and that context is only because there is a lack of official, mechanical ruling as to the abilities of the physical state of the Tranced character being semiconscious. Hence variant. You would just apply a reasonable variation of the condition at that point, such as being incapacitated to some extent because you're not supposed to be able to move about to engage in physical activity, but perhaps at least aware enough to readily communicate once something interrupts your Trance.
What you could infer from our pieces of information, as you likely did at the end of your post, is a combination of any aforementioned elements for Trance is allowing them awareness to a degree rather than being fully unconscious which would apply a full penalty. The semiconscious state that it puts their mind into for the 4 hours is also not the same as being fully conscious however, because as you said they're still somewhat passively aware of their surroundings. I tend to think of it more like daydreaming, that you're locked in a reverie so to speak but something could assuredly snap you out of it, but even that can be a case-by-case ordeal.
And those don't even necessarily have to be applied consistently, lol.
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Successfully completed the Tomb of Horrors module (as part of playing Tomb of Annihilation) with no party deaths!
The dictionary definition of "stunned" is "a dazed or semiconscious state." So, I think it is a fair reading. Nor do I think it's too harsh on a racial benefit. Elves still get a long rest in half the time.
Tables I've played at have treated trance the same as sleep, the benefit was that the Elf was able to participate in more watches while still getting a full rest since they need half the rest time
The problem with that is that sleep is unconscious - whereas Trance is specifically not unconscious - it's semi-conscious - as DxJxC pointed out.
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Unfortunately, WotC did not give any rules for semiconsciousness (thanks a lot), so any answer to this question will be a house rule.
I appreciate the discussion, thank you all. I would agree that disadvantage, for most roles is a good idea, which is better than no rolls. I think Stunned condition is not a good choice unless a specific circumstance applies. If you try to grapple a sleeping MMA fighter, they are not going to auto-fail a strength check, so why would a character who is semi-conscious auto fail? The same goes with a Dex check. I think it would have to be more complicated. Passive perception fail could lead to auto-fail Strength and Dexterity but a pass on perception would bring a Trance state to an end. The DM could decide if disadvantage is given or not depending on the situation.
You are getting check and save confused. A strength save would be to resist being pushed and a dexterity save would be to dodge. I dont think even an MMA fighter can dodge in their sleep.
Attacks having advantage is due to them being still.
And not being able to take actions is a given.
Stunned honestly fits deep meditation pretty well. With or without perception penalties.
You are absolutely correct, thanks, I did get the two mixed up here...actually, suffering from 2 levels of exhaustion, lol. My 3 year old woke me after only 2 hours of sleep, at 2am, when I wrote that...I might be at level 3 right now. Also, why I am fascinated and envious of Elven Trance.
So ironic, I just read the DnD Beyond article on all the Unearthed Arcana playtest. The Rogue Revived, is hilariously vague in so many ways. Anyone want to double up and tackle this one too?
"Revived Nature 3rd-level Revived feature-Your newfound connection to death gives you the following benefits:
• You have advantage on saving throws against disease and being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
• You don’t need to sleep. When you take a long rest, you must spend at least four hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you remain semiconscious, and you can hear as normal."
So the UA reads to me, you are aware of your surroundings, perception based on hearing has no penalty (I'd probably rule disadvantage on visual perception since anything other than directly in front would require moving your head breaking the rest) if you respond to anything during the 4hours you don't benefit from the rest.
oof I would just say the stunned condition or to make it simple they sleep in half the time
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
The UA for the new Rogue subclass: "Revived" playtest states: "you remain semiconscious, and you can hear as normal." Which is what I have felt Elven Trance implies. But most of you have more experience playing 5e than me, and honestly, it will be a long time before I pick an Elf anyway, so no biggie. Think my next character is going to be "Khaos, a Firbold Wild Soul Barbarian...because I am obsessed with playing strange race-class combinations. So about that hidden step...lol.