a warforged in full plate would count as not wearing armor for the purposes of Barbarian or Monk unarmored defense
That would appear to be an issue with the Unarmored Defense rule, not the Integrated Protection rule.
Either the Integrated Protection rule shouldn't have used "incorporate" or should have specified "is considered worn", or the Unarmored Defense rule should have specified "wearing or integrated with"
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
a warforged in full plate would count as not wearing armor for the purposes of Barbarian or Monk unarmored defense
That would appear to be an issue with the Unarmored Defense rule, not the Integrated Protection rule.
Either the Integrated Protection rule shouldn't have used "incorporate" or should have specified "is considered worn", or the Unarmored Defense rule should have specified "wearing or integrated with"
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
They wear it by making it a part of themselves. Like skin. Integrated. And, as a part of a creature, it is no longer an object.
Much like how if you reattached a severed hand (an object) to the creature it was cut from, it stops being an object.
If it is part of a creature. It is part of a creature.
But even as part of the creature it is also worn armor. Yes, that causes some dissonance but it is true, and not contradictory. It is simply worn armor which is part of a creature.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
Because those NPC stat blocks aren't wearing chain/scale/plate/etc.
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
Because those NPC stat blocks aren't wearing chain/scale/plate/etc.
So warforged don't wear armor then? You seem to be saying both that they do and that they don't.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
Because those NPC stat blocks aren't wearing chain/scale/plate/etc.
So warforged don't wear armor then? You seem to be saying both that they do and that they don't.
I think they are saying that Warforged wear armour differently, but still wear armour. If a warforged 'wearing' non-magical plate armour is attacked by a rust monster, does destruction of the plate armour cause them equivalent damage to someone having their skin removed? Pretty sure the answer is 'no.'
The warforged manually removing the armour certainly does not cause them damage equivalent to someone having their skin removed. It is still armour, not literally part of their body.
Having part of its body removed doesn't cause damage.
You can look to items like sword of sharpness for an example.
Maybe that feels unintuitive but the rules can be like that sometimes. They do what they say. And nothing more. And in this case they dont say hacking someone's skin, hand etc off does damage. Attacking them certainly does damage. Two different things entirely.
Hopefully this explains why your hypothetical isn't applicable, nor the conclusions derived from it.
Also, another major issue... a rust monster cannot target the warforged armor at all with their antennae ability since it must target an object. Warforged in armor is a creature.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
Because those NPC stat blocks aren't wearing chain/scale/plate/etc.
So warforged don't wear armor then? You seem to be saying both that they do and that they don't.
I think they are saying that Warforged wear armour differently, but still wear armour. If a warforged 'wearing' non-magical plate armour is attacked by a rust monster, does destruction of the plate armour cause them equivalent damage to someone having their skin removed? Pretty sure the answer is 'no.'
The warforged manually removing the armour certainly does not cause them damage equivalent to someone having their skin removed. It is still armour, not literally part of their body.
Having part of its body removed doesn't cause damage.
You can look to items like sword of sharpness for an example.
Maybe that feels unintuitive but the rules can be like that sometimes. They do what they say. And nothing more. And in this case they dont say hacking someone's skin, hand etc off does damage. Attacking them certainly does damage. Two different things entirely.
Hopefully this explains why your hypothetical isn't applicable, nor the conclusions derived from it.
Also, another major issue... a rust monster cannot target the warforged armor at all with their antennae ability since it must target an object. Warforged in armor is a creature.
The sword of sharpness lops off limbs by way of doing damage and, in fact, does so on criticals and does 14 extra damage on top of that. Although it is nerfed considerably in 5e, only actually lopping a limb off on a second nat 20. But the bottom line is, if a limb is lopped off that round, more damage than usual was taken. I can't think of anything short of a wish that can remove a limb without doing damage as part of the process.... and even the wish might have to be worded to specifically not do HP damage, depending on the DM.
You may want to reread the item. Yes, the sword does damage. It even does extra damage on a crit. Plenty of magic blades do.
But then after that damage is done...
Then it lops off the limb.
Fun fact, even if the target was immune to the damage. Or it was otherwise reduced to 0. Interceptuon, resistance, etc.
... the limb is still lopped off.
Because the limb removal isnt connected to the damage.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You may want to reread the item. Yes, the sword does damage. It even does extra damage on a crit. Plenty of magic blades do.
But then after that damage is done...
Then it lops off the limb.
Maybe you take that absolutely literally as some sort of separate step but I think most would interpret that as all part of the same strike.
The hit can do 0 damage and still lop off a limb. The damage and the effect are not tied together. Idk what to tell you. Your initial assertion isn't accurate.
Having a chunk of you removed doesnt have a rule for how much damage it deals. Fact. What would you have it do? 5? 20? 800 thousand? There isn't a rule for it.
You claimed or otherwise implied that having their armor removed doesn't cause damage was evidence that it isnt part of them. It has been demonstrated why that isnt evidence for what you claim it is.
Simple as.
Moreover. The armor is integrated to the warforged. It is part of a creature. The feature itself even tells us it cannot be removed from you.
While you live, the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will.
^it is incorporated into their body. It cannot be removed.
Thats even more intrinsically part of them than some people's limbs. Because the armor can't even be lopped off by a sword of sharpness but people's hands can.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So, think just for a sec about what you yourself said.
You roll damage. You add a bonus if you crit. *then* you roll to see if a limb is lopped off.
The damage is already rolled. Whether you lop the limb off or not, that attack with do as much as it deals. Say it deals 10+14. Nice. 24 damage with a crit, not bad...
*Now* we roll a d20 and if it is a 20, a limb comes off. But whether or not a limb comes off, the attack did 24 damage.
The removal of the limb did no damage.
There is no point arguing otherwise.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Integrated Protection. Your body has built-in defensive layers, which can be enhanced with armor:
You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor other than a shield, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way.
While you live, the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will.
Specificity. The only things specified by Intergrated Protection is the AC bonus (no arguments there); donning/doffing takes an 1hr of contact with the armor; donned armor cannot be removed against your will. That's it. Many imagine "incorporate" is an additional level of specificity, but it just isn't - simply use DnD Beyond's search tool to examine how/when "incorporate" is used and it's effectively only used to describe aesthetic elements, not gameplay (or talks about the characteristics of organizations/cultural elements, again storyline/aesthetics vs RAW game mechanics).
There is zero specificity that would dictate spells like Heat Metal or anything similar cannot be applied to the armor and should work normally. I interpret the idea to be that, visually, they don't wear armor like most races nor is it literally part of their body like a turtle, but rather it fuses to the Warforged so they wouldn't need buckles, straps, or even a "good fit" to secure the armor to themselves. Perhaps they can adjust their proportions so that any suit of armor in their size fits like a glove? Perhaps rivets secure the armor? Perhaps wire bundles weave thru the armor? Maybe arcane energies (like refrigerator magnets) hold the armor in place? Maybe Chia plants spring up or slime oozes out and adheres to the armor?
Also, there's nothing that says exactly what a warforged is made of. They could be cybernetic, like a Terminator T-101 (with or without flesh/with or without gangrene which doesn't affect them) or T-1000 (especially if with the right class). They could be almost entirely wood - or actually entirely wood/plants! They could be mostly stone! It's purely narrative and aesthetic since outside of some specific exceptions - they otherwise follow the same rules for humanoid. Some examples, like rest, are listed but this would also include anything not mentioned (vs exclude) like whether it's hot or cold, whether they burn, freeze, melt, explode or take slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, can lose limbs (plus which limbs they have, how many, and where they are located) and whether wearing armor is a factor (it's not - anyone who loses a limb in combat and nothing more would still have the armor they had on before the blow - although that sounds like an awesome legendary action or something, 'bite off limb and explode any armor target was wearing off, destroying the armor' in which case the warforged stays armored. And they are still tougher than most other humanoids - that's why they get an automatic +1 AC whether they don/wear/incorporate armor or not. Either way, they're only different in the ways explicitly listed and the rest is just for flavor.
Living Steel and Stone
Warforged are formed from a blend of organic and inorganic materials. Root-like cords infused with alchemical fluids serve as their muscles, wrapped around a framework of steel, darkwood, or stone. Armored plates form a protective outer shell and reinforce joints. Warforged share a common facial design, with a hinged jaw and crystal eyes embedded beneath a reinforced brow ridge. Beyond these common elements of warforged design, the precise materials and build of a warforged vary based on the purpose for which it was designed.
Although they were manufactured, warforged are living humanoids. Resting, healing magic, and the Medicine skill all provide the same benefits to warforged that they do to other humanoids.
Constructed Resilience. You were created to have remarkable fortitude, represented by the following benefits:
You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
You are immune to disease.
You don’t need to sleep, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Sentry’s Rest. When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.
Integrated Protection. Your body has built-in defensive layers, which can be enhanced with armor:
You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor other than a shield, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way.
While you live, the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will.
Specialized Design. You gain one skill proficiency and one tool proficiency of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.
So again, all integrated protection does is add +1 to AC outright and changes donning/doffing to 1hr, after which, it can only be removed by you. Also, you cannot wear armor which you are not proficient at all. No more. No less. Therefore, warforged are somewhat inherently more vulnerable to spells like Heat Metal, which makes sense - bear in mind, they are not outright more vulnerable as they can't be targeted by the spell as potentially "manufactured metal objects... such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor" unless of course those objects are actually incorporated into your body - then you could be (metal weapon = an attuned warforged wristblade or similar item)!
Arguably, the only thing "incorporate" might nullify is:
VARIANT: EQUIPMENT SIZES
In most campaigns, you can use or wear any equipment that you find on your adventures, within the bounds of common sense. For example, a burly half-orc won’t fit in a halfling’s leather armor, and a gnome would be swallowed up in a cloud giant’s elegant robe.
The DM can impose more realism. For example, a suit of plate armor made for one human might not fit another one without significant alterations, and a guard’s uniform might be visibly ill-fitting when an adventurer tries to wear it as a disguise.
Using this variant, when adventurers find armor, clothing, and similar items that are made to be worn, they might need to visit an armorsmith, tailor, leatherworker, or similar expert to make the item wearable. The cost for such work varies from 10 to 40 percent of the market price of the item. The DM can either roll 1d4 × 10 or determine the increase in cost based on the extent of the alterations required.
Notes & Considerations:
Whether warforged can receive assistance doffing armor, halving the time, would of course be up to the DM but I would not allow this benefit since the rule states, "To doff armor, youmust spend 1 hour removing it." Even though it also says, "the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will." suggesting you might be able to. Examining 'Getting Into and Out of Armor' you'll see it doesn't actually specify that you have to be the one to don/doff the armor - you could stand there and have your party do it; thus, warforged having to do it themselves is more specific and therefore, should apply. No help.
The rule states "to don armor other than a shield, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way" but otherwise,
it's not a ritual and does not require concentration.
donning/doffing armor is an action with variable completion time somewhat similar to ritual spellcasting (warforged = 1 action for shields, 1hr for all other armor).
no mention of an ability to move or do another action while donning/doffing, like other rules which allow this state (see resources like 'Order of Combat' 'Breaking Up Your Move' & 'Interacting with Objects Around You' in PHB: Combat and 'Activity While Traveling' in PHB: Adventuring) - worth mentioning, the rules do list and give examples of specific actions that can be taken during combat, ultimately up to the DM, but none of them mention anything which allows you to change your clothes or armor in a major way - maybe pull a hood, remove a helm or mask, lift a visor, remove a cloak, ring, necklace but nothing major (also, you need to have your hands free) - magic items aren't inherently "armor" to be donned/doffed unless it explicitly says it is armor.
no mention of an ability to accumulate or track time towards the time required Don/Doff armor like say monitoring Winged Boot usage which means you cannot be interrupted or else you would need to start over. The rule explicitly says this when donning and should be assumed that's true for doffing as well.
Otherwise, there would be nothing stating a warforged couldn't wrap a chain shirt around their arm and an hour later may claim the AC bonus. The rule only says, "You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way." Not that you must. Perhaps a warforged could chain all the plate pieces to their torso, boots and all, and go running around & fighting for an hour and then, POOF <transformer sound effect> completes incorporating the armor and claims the AC bonus. I imagine it is easier to stay in contact w/ armor types which have less pieces (which can be inferred by the items description - Breast Plate vs Full-Plate for example). Or if they were allowed to start the process at one point and complete it at another time, you could "doff armor" for 59 and 54 seconds, thus requiring only an action to complete the process, perhaps in the middle of combat. Naturally, I don't believe any of those assumptions should be made about these rules.
The rule is specific as to when armor can be removed from you...
Which is basically only ever willfully while alive and however if dead. It does not say, "except for Magical means" or anything of the sort, so a rule would have to say it overrides similar rules like we see with using the Spell 'Daylight' to nullify a 'Darkness' spell or say using 'Universal Solvent' to nullify 'Sovereign Glue'. This does not exist in the game, unless Homebrew, to my knowledge so literally nothing, arguably even a Wish spell, can remove incorporated armor from a living warforged who wants to keep it on, and they have to keep it on for at least an hour if they choose to remove it. Now, a clever DM would see you could easily strongly encourage a warforged character to choose to take their armor off with Wish, thus satisfying the conditions, by say casting L8 Heat Metal on their armor, or if the Armor is a Magic Item, L8 Disintegrate, potentially leaving the Magic Armor in a pile of fine gray dust.
On the flipside, Cast-Off Armor explicitly/more-specifically says, "You can doff this armor as an action" or similarly, the UA 'Eldritch Armor Invocation' play-test material from 2019, "Eldritch Armor - Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature - As an action, you can touch a suit of armor that isn’t being worn or carried by anyone and instantly don it, provided you aren’t wearing armor already. You are proficient with this suit of armor until it’s removed." so you could respectively doff or don armor instantly provided you are already proficient in the armor in the Invocation's case (the UA Invocation only grants proficiency to armor while being worn - a warforged cannot don armor it is not proficient in).
Warforged could potentially be mind-controlled into removing their armor willfully with or without the use of a Wish spell of course. Hell! Perhaps an amazing Persuasion check could suffice in convincing one to willfully remove its armor!
Donning/Doffing literally means "put on" and "take off" respectively, as in "start wearing" and "stop wearing" so as far as warforged are concerned here, donning/wearing/incorporating are identical as far as gameplay mechanics. To wear armor, they must don it by incorporating it into their bodies. This can be inferred from 'Armor and Shields' in PHB: Equipment under 'Armor Proficiency' where it explicitly stats characters wear armor and then later in the same section under 'Getting Into and Out of Armor' calls it Donning/Doffing. More importantly, it never says, a warforged does not "wear" armor by incorporating it into their body. This seems like a relatively common assumption/misconception which is made without truly considering the language presented throughout the published rules.
So, think just for a sec about what you yourself said.
You roll damage. You add a bonus if you crit. *then* you roll to see if a limb is lopped off.
The damage is already rolled. Whether you lop the limb off or not, that attack with do as much as it deals. Say it deals 10+14. Nice. 24 damage with a crit, not bad...
*Now* we roll a d20 and if it is a 20, a limb comes off. But whether or not a limb comes off, the attack did 24 damage.
The removal of the limb did no damage.
There is no point arguing otherwise.
Yes, you as a player do things sequentially because it is common sense to do it that way. Yes, whether or not a limb comes off, it did 24 damage, however that could be 24 'generic HP damage' or that could be '24 HPs of limb removal' or it could be any combination of the above.
It does not do a normal hit, then a second zero damage strike that may or may not take off a limb. Because that would be completely absurdist. It is all the same strike.
Removing the limb did no damage. The damage of the attack is determined before you even roll to see if the limb comes off. Nothing you've said changes that.
The whole tangent is a red herring anyway. A piece of someone being removed isn't something that causes damage. There is no rule saying it. So it isn't.
The whole "taking it off doesn't hurt them so it isn't part of them" has no legs to stand on. (pun intended) Rolling 24 damage on your attack with a sword of sharpness and then also rolling a 20 and lopping off a dude's leg doesn't cause extra damage to him either. Even if he was a goliath standing next to an interception fighter buddy, and takes 0 damage from the crit, the rolled 20 means the arm comes off all the same.
The armor is part of the warforged, integrated. Incorporated. Your reasoning here is well addressed, and is debunked.
RAW has many absurd situations, this is no different and "absurdity" is not grounds for ignoring the rules as written.
"Ignoring" is a strong word. This is a game with a live DM whose role is to adjudicate and interpret the rules.
Ignoring is correct here. You're trying to invent a new rule about how much damage something takes for part of it being removed. No such rules exist.
Can you please explain the advantages of such literal interpretations?
The advantage of literally following the rules? I mean. Self explanatory really. You have found yourself on a curious sub-forum if this isn't something you care about.
If the target was slashing damage immune, would you, as a DM, still allow the sword to chop limbs off, even though it would be unable to do damage to such a target?
Of course. That's what it does. Black and white. Limb; on then off.
And how would you handle the Warforged losing a limb, with respect to their armour? Limb falls off but armour remains intact? Magical armour disintegrated with the Warforged or not?
Nothing says the armor stays intact. It just says it stays on them. If you cut their limb off that whole limb comes off, whatever armor is on it included.
For the purposes of the now 3 limb'd warforged he still is treated as fully armored, though. You don't go start removing AC or whatever other nonsense. Not unless you're planning on homebrewing some stuff here.
As far as the rules are concerned: A creature who gets their limb removed still is wearing their armor.
Integrated Protection. Your body has built-in defensive layers, which can be enhanced with armor:
You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor other than a shield, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way.
While you live, the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will.
Specificity. The only things specified by Intergrated Protection is the AC bonus (no arguments there); donning/doffing takes an 1hr of contact with the armor; donned armor cannot be removed against your will. That's it. Many imagine "incorporate" is an additional level of specificity, but it just isn't - simply use DnD Beyond's search tool to examine how/when "incorporate" is used and it's effectively only used to describe aesthetic elements, not gameplay (or talks about the characteristics of organizations/cultural elements, again storyline/aesthetics vs RAW game mechanics).
There is zero specificity that would dictate spells like Heat Metal or anything similar cannot be applied to the armor and should work normally. I interpret the idea to be that, visually, they don't wear armor like most races nor is it literally part of their body like a turtle, but rather it fuses to the Warforged so they wouldn't need buckles, straps, or even a "good fit" to secure the armor to themselves. Perhaps they can adjust their proportions so that any suit of armor in their size fits like a glove? Perhaps rivets secure the armor? Perhaps wire bundles weave thru the armor? Maybe arcane energies (like refrigerator magnets) hold the armor in place? Maybe Chia plants spring up or slime oozes out and adheres to the armor?
You're welcome to flavor text any description you like to explain the process, but because the armor is incorporated into their body it is part of them. That's what bullet point 3, specifically, tells us. "the armor incorporated into your body"
You'll note it doesn't even suggest what you're claiming, had it, it would have said "the armor incorporated intoadhered ontoyour body."
Living Steel and Stone
Warforged are formed from a blend of organic and inorganic materials. Root-like cords infused with alchemical fluids serve as their muscles, wrapped around a framework of steel, darkwood, or stone. Armored plates form a protective outer shell and reinforce joints. Warforged share a common facial design, with a hinged jaw and crystal eyes embedded beneath a reinforced brow ridge. Beyond these common elements of warforged design, the precise materials and build of a warforged vary based on the purpose for which it was designed.
Although they were manufactured, warforged are living humanoids. Resting, healing magic, and the Medicine skill all provide the same benefits to warforged that they do to other humanoids.
Constructed Resilience. You were created to have remarkable fortitude, represented by the following benefits:
You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
You are immune to disease.
You don’t need to sleep, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Sentry’s Rest. When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.
Integrated Protection. Your body has built-in defensive layers, which can be enhanced with armor:
You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor other than a shield, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way.
While you live, the armor incorporated into your body can’t be removed against your will.
Specialized Design. You gain one skill proficiency and one tool proficiency of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.
So again, all integrated protection does is add +1 to AC outright and changes donning/doffing to 1hr, after which, it can only be removed by you. Also, you cannot wear armor which you are not proficient at all. No more. No less.
Quite a bit more, actually. Otherwise they would have phrased it exactly like you just did since that is so much shorter. Printed page space isn't something they waste for no reason.
Therefore, warforged are somewhat inherently more vulnerable to spells like Heat Metal, which makes sense - bear in mind, they are not outright more vulnerable as they can't be targeted by the spell as potentially "manufactured metal objects... such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor" unless of course those objects are actually incorporated into your body - then you could be (metal weapon = an attuned warforged wristblade or similar item)!
Nope, none of this is correct. The armor has been incorporated into their body and isn't a valid target for spells like Heat Metal.
The armblade is an interesting object. It isn't incorporated into the warforged, instead, it is "attached to" them. So spells like Heat Metal could target it just fine... except when it is put away. Because then it "retract"s "into your forearm". And, heat metal requires being able to see the target object.
More importantly, it never says, a warforged does not "wear" armor by incorporating it into their body. This seems like a relatively common assumption/misconception which is made without truly considering the language presented throughout the published rules.
Oh they're still wearing armor alright. That armor is, however, no longer an object and is instead part of a creature.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There is exactly zero text to support the notion that the armor stops being an object. I suggest you take that to the homebrew forum if you want to make that change in your game. This thread is about the rules.
There is exactly zero text to support the notion that the armor stops being an object. I suggest you take that to the homebrew forum if you want to make that change in your game. This thread is about the rules.
Warforged are not objects. That is homebrew.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It all comes down to how the DM decides to interpret the word "incorporate".
"Incorporate: take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include"
1) As DM, I could decide that the armor is actually incorporated INTO the body of the warforged, as a result, the armor may still be an object but since it is "incorporated" but it has total cover from spells and effects applied to the outside of the warforged and thus heat metal won't have a valid target when cast at a warforged with integrated armor.
2) The DM could also decide that the armor is "incorporated" into the warforged structure but that the armor remains a distinct visible object that is a part of the warforged. In this case, since the armor remains a manufactured metal object that doesn't have total cover, it could be targeted by heat metal.
3) Another possibility is that the DM could decide that "incorporated" means that the armor becomes an integral part of the warforged. The armor is then essentially used to give the warforged harder skin. In this case, the armor is no longer a discrete object but is an incorporated part of a creature (currently type humanoid) and is actually a part of a creature and thus an invalid target for heat metal.
For example, can an iron golem be targeted by heat metal? The answer would be usually be no since although it is made of "manufactured metal" it is not an object, it is a creature. A DM could easily rule that a a warforged with integrated armor has made that armor a part of their structure in a way similar to an iron golem and since the armor has become a part of the creature it is no longer a separately targeted object.
ALL of these rulings are entirely valid and consistent with RAW since they all hinge on interpreting what the word "incorporated" means in the context of a warforged utilizing a suit of armor. Neither side can really win this argument since they are all the interpretations above are equally valid rulings based on RAW.
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an PC.
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an NPC.
That's not at all true. A warforged soldier doesn't have natural armor; it has chainmail.
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an NPC.
That's not at all true. A warforged soldier doesn't have natural armor; it has chainmail.
How many Warforged are there in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica lore? Asking for a friend.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an NPC.
That's not at all true. A warforged soldier doesn't have natural armor; it has chainmail.
How many Warforged are there in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica lore? Asking for a friend.
This feels like you’re trying to ask if Warforged are Humanoids. Is that really what you want to know?
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an NPC.
That's not at all true. A warforged soldier doesn't have natural armor; it has chainmail.
How many Warforged are there in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica lore? Asking for a friend.
This feels like you’re trying to ask if Warforged are Humanoids. Is that really what you want to know?
No. It isn't. Not even close.
Description
Soldiers are found in many of Ravnica’s guilds. The soldier stat block represents a typical member of the rank and file, though weaponry and armor can vary.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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There's no issue here. Integrated Protection explicitly says that warforged don their armor. They don't wear armor the way other creatures do, but they absolutely wear armor. There's no "considered" about it.
They wear it by making it a part of themselves. Like skin. Integrated. And, as a part of a creature, it is no longer an object.
Much like how if you reattached a severed hand (an object) to the creature it was cut from, it stops being an object.
If it is part of a creature. It is part of a creature.
But even as part of the creature it is also worn armor. Yes, that causes some dissonance but it is true, and not contradictory. It is simply worn armor which is part of a creature.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If that is the case, why don't the NPC stat blocks list Chain/Scale/Plate/etc in their armor type like they do for other creatures "Wearing" armor?
Because those NPC stat blocks aren't wearing chain/scale/plate/etc.
So warforged don't wear armor then? You seem to be saying both that they do and that they don't.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Having part of its body removed doesn't cause damage.
You can look to items like sword of sharpness for an example.
Maybe that feels unintuitive but the rules can be like that sometimes. They do what they say. And nothing more. And in this case they dont say hacking someone's skin, hand etc off does damage. Attacking them certainly does damage. Two different things entirely.
Hopefully this explains why your hypothetical isn't applicable, nor the conclusions derived from it.
Also, another major issue... a rust monster cannot target the warforged armor at all with their antennae ability since it must target an object. Warforged in armor is a creature.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You may want to reread the item. Yes, the sword does damage. It even does extra damage on a crit. Plenty of magic blades do.
But then after that damage is done...
Then it lops off the limb.
Fun fact, even if the target was immune to the damage. Or it was otherwise reduced to 0. Interceptuon, resistance, etc.
... the limb is still lopped off.
Because the limb removal isnt connected to the damage.
Nor is the damage connected to the limb removal.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The hit can do 0 damage and still lop off a limb. The damage and the effect are not tied together. Idk what to tell you. Your initial assertion isn't accurate.
Having a chunk of you removed doesnt have a rule for how much damage it deals. Fact. What would you have it do? 5? 20? 800 thousand? There isn't a rule for it.
You claimed or otherwise implied that having their armor removed doesn't cause damage was evidence that it isnt part of them. It has been demonstrated why that isnt evidence for what you claim it is.
Simple as.
Moreover. The armor is integrated to the warforged. It is part of a creature. The feature itself even tells us it cannot be removed from you.
^it is incorporated into their body. It cannot be removed.
Thats even more intrinsically part of them than some people's limbs. Because the armor can't even be lopped off by a sword of sharpness but people's hands can.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So, think just for a sec about what you yourself said.
You roll damage. You add a bonus if you crit. *then* you roll to see if a limb is lopped off.
The damage is already rolled. Whether you lop the limb off or not, that attack with do as much as it deals. Say it deals 10+14. Nice. 24 damage with a crit, not bad...
*Now* we roll a d20 and if it is a 20, a limb comes off. But whether or not a limb comes off, the attack did 24 damage.
The removal of the limb did no damage.
There is no point arguing otherwise.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
RAW has many absurd situations, this is no different and "absurdity" is not grounds for ignoring the rules as written.
Specificity. The only things specified by Intergrated Protection is the AC bonus (no arguments there); donning/doffing takes an 1hr of contact with the armor; donned armor cannot be removed against your will. That's it. Many imagine "incorporate" is an additional level of specificity, but it just isn't - simply use DnD Beyond's search tool to examine how/when "incorporate" is used and it's effectively only used to describe aesthetic elements, not gameplay (or talks about the characteristics of organizations/cultural elements, again storyline/aesthetics vs RAW game mechanics).
There is zero specificity that would dictate spells like Heat Metal or anything similar cannot be applied to the armor and should work normally. I interpret the idea to be that, visually, they don't wear armor like most races nor is it literally part of their body like a turtle, but rather it fuses to the Warforged so they wouldn't need buckles, straps, or even a "good fit" to secure the armor to themselves. Perhaps they can adjust their proportions so that any suit of armor in their size fits like a glove? Perhaps rivets secure the armor? Perhaps wire bundles weave thru the armor? Maybe arcane energies (like refrigerator magnets) hold the armor in place? Maybe Chia plants spring up or slime oozes out and adheres to the armor?
Also, there's nothing that says exactly what a warforged is made of. They could be cybernetic, like a Terminator T-101 (with or without flesh/with or without gangrene which doesn't affect them) or T-1000 (especially if with the right class). They could be almost entirely wood - or actually entirely wood/plants! They could be mostly stone! It's purely narrative and aesthetic since outside of some specific exceptions - they otherwise follow the same rules for humanoid. Some examples, like rest, are listed but this would also include anything not mentioned (vs exclude) like whether it's hot or cold, whether they burn, freeze, melt, explode or take slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, can lose limbs (plus which limbs they have, how many, and where they are located) and whether wearing armor is a factor (it's not - anyone who loses a limb in combat and nothing more would still have the armor they had on before the blow - although that sounds like an awesome legendary action or something, 'bite off limb and explode any armor target was wearing off, destroying the armor' in which case the warforged stays armored. And they are still tougher than most other humanoids - that's why they get an automatic +1 AC whether they don/wear/incorporate armor or not. Either way, they're only different in the ways explicitly listed and the rest is just for flavor.
So again, all integrated protection does is add +1 to AC outright and changes donning/doffing to 1hr, after which, it can only be removed by you. Also, you cannot wear armor which you are not proficient at all. No more. No less. Therefore, warforged are somewhat inherently more vulnerable to spells like Heat Metal, which makes sense - bear in mind, they are not outright more vulnerable as they can't be targeted by the spell as potentially "manufactured metal objects... such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor" unless of course those objects are actually incorporated into your body - then you could be (metal weapon = an attuned warforged wristblade or similar item)!
Arguably, the only thing "incorporate" might nullify is:
Notes & Considerations:
Removing the limb did no damage. The damage of the attack is determined before you even roll to see if the limb comes off. Nothing you've said changes that.
The whole tangent is a red herring anyway. A piece of someone being removed isn't something that causes damage. There is no rule saying it. So it isn't.
The whole "taking it off doesn't hurt them so it isn't part of them" has no legs to stand on. (pun intended) Rolling 24 damage on your attack with a sword of sharpness and then also rolling a 20 and lopping off a dude's leg doesn't cause extra damage to him either. Even if he was a goliath standing next to an interception fighter buddy, and takes 0 damage from the crit, the rolled 20 means the arm comes off all the same.
The armor is part of the warforged, integrated. Incorporated. Your reasoning here is well addressed, and is debunked.
Ignoring is correct here. You're trying to invent a new rule about how much damage something takes for part of it being removed. No such rules exist.
The advantage of literally following the rules? I mean. Self explanatory really. You have found yourself on a curious sub-forum if this isn't something you care about.
Of course. That's what it does. Black and white. Limb; on then off.
Nothing says the armor stays intact. It just says it stays on them. If you cut their limb off that whole limb comes off, whatever armor is on it included.
For the purposes of the now 3 limb'd warforged he still is treated as fully armored, though. You don't go start removing AC or whatever other nonsense. Not unless you're planning on homebrewing some stuff here.
As far as the rules are concerned: A creature who gets their limb removed still is wearing their armor.
You're welcome to flavor text any description you like to explain the process, but because the armor is incorporated into their body it is part of them. That's what bullet point 3, specifically, tells us. "the armor incorporated into your body"
You'll note it doesn't even suggest what you're claiming, had it, it would have said "the armor
incorporated intoadhered onto your body."Quite a bit more, actually. Otherwise they would have phrased it exactly like you just did since that is so much shorter. Printed page space isn't something they waste for no reason.
Nope, none of this is correct. The armor has been incorporated into their body and isn't a valid target for spells like Heat Metal.
The armblade is an interesting object. It isn't incorporated into the warforged, instead, it is "attached to" them. So spells like Heat Metal could target it just fine... except when it is put away. Because then it "retract"s "into your forearm". And, heat metal requires being able to see the target object.
Oh they're still wearing armor alright. That armor is, however, no longer an object and is instead part of a creature.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There is exactly zero text to support the notion that the armor stops being an object. I suggest you take that to the homebrew forum if you want to make that change in your game. This thread is about the rules.
Warforged are not objects. That is homebrew.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Is this argument still going on?
It all comes down to how the DM decides to interpret the word "incorporate".
"Incorporate: take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include"
1) As DM, I could decide that the armor is actually incorporated INTO the body of the warforged, as a result, the armor may still be an object but since it is "incorporated" but it has total cover from spells and effects applied to the outside of the warforged and thus heat metal won't have a valid target when cast at a warforged with integrated armor.
2) The DM could also decide that the armor is "incorporated" into the warforged structure but that the armor remains a distinct visible object that is a part of the warforged. In this case, since the armor remains a manufactured metal object that doesn't have total cover, it could be targeted by heat metal.
3) Another possibility is that the DM could decide that "incorporated" means that the armor becomes an integral part of the warforged. The armor is then essentially used to give the warforged harder skin. In this case, the armor is no longer a discrete object but is an incorporated part of a creature (currently type humanoid) and is actually a part of a creature and thus an invalid target for heat metal.
For example, can an iron golem be targeted by heat metal? The answer would be usually be no since although it is made of "manufactured metal" it is not an object, it is a creature. A DM could easily rule that a a warforged with integrated armor has made that armor a part of their structure in a way similar to an iron golem and since the armor has become a part of the creature it is no longer a separately targeted object.
ALL of these rulings are entirely valid and consistent with RAW since they all hinge on interpreting what the word "incorporated" means in the context of a warforged utilizing a suit of armor. Neither side can really win this argument since they are all the interpretations above are equally valid rulings based on RAW.
This is explicitly a DM issue as NPC warforged have "natural armor" in their stat block. Players cannot cast heat metal on a standard NPC Warforged. But you as the DM may be able to cast heat metal on an PC.
That's not at all true. A warforged soldier doesn't have natural armor; it has chainmail.
How many Warforged are there in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica lore? Asking for a friend.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This feels like you’re trying to ask if Warforged are Humanoids. Is that really what you want to know?
No. It isn't. Not even close.
Description
Soldiers are found in many of Ravnica’s guilds. The soldier stat block represents a typical member of the rank and file, though weaponry and armor can vary.
Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica, pg. 226
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.