I guess I see the distinction you're making, but I'm having trouble seeing why it matters. Improvised weapons are necessarily sloppy because they don't fit neatly into any of the other categories and any chance to treat an improvised weapon like something that has traditional weapon structure is one less case where you have to use the sloppy in-between rules for it.
Is this just a case where RAW saying "The DM decides" is just unsatisfying? I was serious when i mentioned it earlier. I like the book to account for as much as possible as well.
If that's all he's saying (improvised weapons that resemble weapons deal the damage of the weapon they resemble and allow you to use your proficiency bonus if you're proficient in that weapon; other improvised weapons deal 1d4 damage and don't use your proficiency bonus without improvised weapon proficiency), then I have no objections.
It matters because Tavern Brawler lets you grapple someone when you hit them with a table leg, but it doesn't let you grapple someone when you hit them with a club. Other feats/class features (either future releases, or homebrew options) may also care about the distinction.
My takeaway is that you can treat a table leg as a club for the purpose of combat, but it is still a table leg and tavern brawler still gets the additional functionality.
My takeaway is that you can treat a table leg as a club for the purpose of combat, but it is still a table leg and tavern brawler still gets the additional functionality.
Yup, it's an improvised weapon that can be treated as having the stat block of a club, but it still counts as an improvised weapon for features that trigger off their usage.
I was totally wrong earlier about using STR for throwing acid vials, alchemist's fire, etc. My lizard brain was stuck on the holdover of 3.5 where all thrown weapons used STR.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think a club may not be a great example because a table leg already looks and behaves a whole lot like a club. So you can take a table leg and say maybe we just treat it like a club. But if you grab a broom, maybe it's really not such a great club. And a shovel? Maybe yes and maybe not. That's why we have to improvise.
A broom would likely be considered a quarterstaff or spear. A shovel is trickier... depending on the specifics of size, I could see it possibly being similar enough to a mace, a handaxe, or just a plain old improvised weapon at the baseline 1d4. I don't think there's any specific rule about it, but I personally wouldn't allow any improvised weapon to count as a martial weapon.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
An improvised weapon does 1d4 damage the same way a mace deals 1d6 damage. Adding damage modifiers is not a property of weapons, it is part of the ability and attack rules. And the rules are as follows:
The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin.
You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow.
None of the rules about improvised weapons change these rules.
True, but a DM probably could add weapon properties like Finesse, Heavy, Two-Handed, or Thrown to a non-weapon-resembling Improvised Weapon, and Finesse and Thrown might change those rules.
None of this matters because I'm going to kill SirTurtle before he gets a chance to throw any of those :)
In seriousness this thread has been very helpful. I'm DMing a one shot (first time DMing) and we haven't tried any of this in our regular campaign.
But here's the most important question - If my Barbarian wants to pick up my Druid friend who wild shaped into an Elk, is the Elk an improvised weapon?
None of this matters because I'm going to kill SirTurtle before he gets a chance to throw any of those :)
In seriousness this thread has been very helpful. I'm DMing a one shot (first time DMing) and we haven't tried any of this in our regular campaign.
But here's the most important question - If my Barbarian wants to pick up my Druid friend who wild shaped into an Elk, is the Elk an improvised weapon?
An improvised weapon does 1d4 damage the same way a mace deals 1d6 damage. Adding damage modifiers is not a property of weapons, it is part of the ability and attack rules. And the rules are as follows:
The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin.
You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow.
None of the rules about improvised weapons change these rules.
This is correct. If your weapon shows up in the table on PHB 149, then it is a melee weapon or a ranged weapon and the above rules apply to it. Improvised weapons are not a subset of melee or ranged weapons, but they are weapons and therefore they are handled by a special set of rules for improvised weapons (quoted previously) on PHB 147.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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Nope. You quoted the actual rule on the subject. If you treat a table leg club as a club then it is mechanically a club.
I guess I see the distinction you're making, but I'm having trouble seeing why it matters. Improvised weapons are necessarily sloppy because they don't fit neatly into any of the other categories and any chance to treat an improvised weapon like something that has traditional weapon structure is one less case where you have to use the sloppy in-between rules for it.
Is this just a case where RAW saying "The DM decides" is just unsatisfying? I was serious when i mentioned it earlier. I like the book to account for as much as possible as well.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If that's all he's saying (improvised weapons that resemble weapons deal the damage of the weapon they resemble and allow you to use your proficiency bonus if you're proficient in that weapon; other improvised weapons deal 1d4 damage and don't use your proficiency bonus without improvised weapon proficiency), then I have no objections.
It matters because Tavern Brawler lets you grapple someone when you hit them with a table leg, but it doesn't let you grapple someone when you hit them with a club. Other feats/class features (either future releases, or homebrew options) may also care about the distinction.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ah! Now I see what you’re saying.
My takeaway is that you can treat a table leg as a club for the purpose of combat, but it is still a table leg and tavern brawler still gets the additional functionality.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yup, it's an improvised weapon that can be treated as having the stat block of a club, but it still counts as an improvised weapon for features that trigger off their usage.
I was totally wrong earlier about using STR for throwing acid vials, alchemist's fire, etc. My lizard brain was stuck on the holdover of 3.5 where all thrown weapons used STR.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think a club may not be a great example because a table leg already looks and behaves a whole lot like a club. So you can take a table leg and say maybe we just treat it like a club. But if you grab a broom, maybe it's really not such a great club. And a shovel? Maybe yes and maybe not. That's why we have to improvise.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
A broom would likely be considered a quarterstaff or spear. A shovel is trickier... depending on the specifics of size, I could see it possibly being similar enough to a mace, a handaxe, or just a plain old improvised weapon at the baseline 1d4. I don't think there's any specific rule about it, but I personally wouldn't allow any improvised weapon to count as a martial weapon.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
An improvised weapon does 1d4 damage the same way a mace deals 1d6 damage. Adding damage modifiers is not a property of weapons, it is part of the ability and attack rules. And the rules are as follows:
None of the rules about improvised weapons change these rules.
True, but a DM probably could add weapon properties like Finesse, Heavy, Two-Handed, or Thrown to a non-weapon-resembling Improvised Weapon, and Finesse and Thrown might change those rules.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
None of this matters because I'm going to kill SirTurtle before he gets a chance to throw any of those :)
In seriousness this thread has been very helpful. I'm DMing a one shot (first time DMing) and we haven't tried any of this in our regular campaign.
But here's the most important question - If my Barbarian wants to pick up my Druid friend who wild shaped into an Elk, is the Elk an improvised weapon?
That is completely up to you (DM).
This is correct. If your weapon shows up in the table on PHB 149, then it is a melee weapon or a ranged weapon and the above rules apply to it. Improvised weapons are not a subset of melee or ranged weapons, but they are weapons and therefore they are handled by a special set of rules for improvised weapons (quoted previously) on PHB 147.
"Not all those who wander are lost"