Hi. So assuming we cast web without anchoring, targeting a creature midair, it should only last until my next round. That should still be enough for the creature to fall to the ground if it fails its dex-save and thus becomes restrained turning its speed to 0. My question is regarding the second way to escape. If the creature fails its dex save it can spend its action to break lose. Given that a creature can choose to take its move before or after its actions, would a flying creature both have to fail its dex save, and then has a chance to spend its action making a str save before it would eventually fall to the ground?
I think it would not be allowed the str save because its speed have theoretically been reduced to 0 even if it never spent that movement yet as per the phb: If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell. (p. 191)
I would argue that the fall happens immediately at the beginning of the turn that they fail. If you knock a flying creature prone it doesn’t fall on its move phase, it falls immediately. So by my interpretation the Dex save would be rolled at the beginning and if it fails the fall happens before any other actions are attempted.
I could see a DM rule this another way if the fall was high enough possibly, using the Rule of Cool to judge accordingly.
I like your way of thinking. I love creative uses of spells. However I don't think the spell was intended to work this way.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. [...] If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
I'm not a rules lawyering nerd (hate those guys), but I do feel that they worded this spell accordingly to prevent what you are wanting to do with it.
I like your way of thinking. I love creative uses of spells. However I don't think the spell was intended to work this way.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. [...] If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
I'm not a rules lawyering nerd (hate those guys), but I do feel that they worded this spell accordingly to prevent what you are wanting to do with it.
True, but rule of cool states that webbing something out of the air is awesome. I’d 100% allow it in my game.
I like your way of thinking. I love creative uses of spells. However I don't think the spell was intended to work this way.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. [...] If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
I'm not a rules lawyering nerd (hate those guys), but I do feel that they worded this spell accordingly to prevent what you are wanting to do with it.
To me "the spell ends at the start of your next turn" doesn't sound like it fails immediately, but rather a little bit later. I'd say the webs would exist for one turn and the flying creature would make a save at the beginning of their turn and would fall if it failed, but then the webs would disappear at the beginning of the caster's next turn, freeing the creature.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I like your way of thinking. I love creative uses of spells. However I don't think the spell was intended to work this way.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. [...] If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
I'm not a rules lawyering nerd (hate those guys), but I do feel that they worded this spell accordingly to prevent what you are wanting to do with it.
To me "the spell ends at the start of your next turn" doesn't sound like it fails immediately, but rather a little bit later. I'd say the webs would exist for one turn and the flying creature would make a save at the beginning of their turn and would fall if it failed, but then the webs would disappear at the beginning of the caster's next turn, freeing the creature.
That's an interesting (and awesome) way of reading it! As I said before, I love creative uses of spells, and even though I don't think they intended it to work that way, I'd much rather reward my players...
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
If the intent was that the spell fails if targeted without an anchor, it would say that. It pretty specifically says it lasts until the start of your next turn. On the original question, falling when speed is reduced to zero appears to be an immediate effect, and thus breaking free would not help. However, I would probably give a flying creature a chance to break free, as otherwise it seems a bit easy to knock giant monsters out of the air.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature. And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
If the intent was that the spell fails if targeted without an anchor, it would say that. It pretty specifically says it lasts until the start of your next turn. On the original question, falling when speed is reduced to zero appears to be an immediate effect, and thus breaking free would not help. However, I would probably give a flying creature a chance to break free, as otherwise it seems a bit easy to knock giant monsters out of the air.
Originally the intent was that it failed. From my old AD&D book here: These masses (webs) must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points, floor and ceiling, opposite walls, etc., or the web collapses upon itself and disappears.
After 30 years of never leaving second edition (switched to 5e less than 2 years ago) it's still hard to read all the nuances that 5e has made in changing their wording. Funny how I read the words of the spell twice, but still interpreted it the way it originally was written.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature.
I mean, you could target "The space between tip-to-tip of the wingspan, and head to tail of the creature." Assuming its something with wings that fits within the area of the Web spell, with that description you've effectively described a point within range. The creature just happens to be within it.
How do you think Spiders catch flying things... WEB *The webs areDifficult Terrain and lightly obscure their area.* as the spell says its THICCCCC and has a GooD MASS &
If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. So IT STILL EXIST IN THE UNIVER UNTILL YOUR NEXT TURN !!!!!!!!!!!! A FALLİNG MASSS OF WEB think for your selves at that moment
Anything Flying Should make a DEX save the moment casted if fail it falls as restrained/ if success it still flies and untill your next turn/web disapears its speed is halved I belive...
I would also allow this with rule of cool, but since it also says that creatures are only restrained while within the webs, a dm could argue they become restrained, fall out of the webs after falling a certain number of feet, then a flying creature could catch itself since its movement would be back
The point you are targeting can be in the creatures space, and it fills a 20 foot cube, which is probably enough to cause the creature to have to make the save. Think of it as one of those confetti poppers. You spray out the confetti into an area and they float to the ground, kind of like an unanchored web collapsing in on itself and ending the start of your next turn. Any person in the area of the confetti will have some stuck in their hair and clothes, just like webs sticking to a flying creature.
Edit: and as far as targeting a point not a creature, you don't target a creature when you are using in on ground based creatures, anchoring it or layering it on the ground, either. Creatures in the 20 foot cube treat it as difficult terrain and it's lightly obscured anchored or not. In the case of not anchored it lasts until the start of your next turn.
RAW, yes, it falls immediately up to 500 feet. However, I feel the falling rules are a little bit harsh for flying creatures. They also don't make a lot of sense. A creature falls 500 feet if it stops flying, but can only fly downward up to twice its movement speed, and that only if it uses its action to dash. A common flying speed is 50 feet, so a creature can move downward between 0 and 100 feet, or exactly 500 feet, but not exactly 200 or 300 or 400 feet.
I rule that non-flying creatures do immediately fall 500 feet, but flying creatures, since by their nature they are light compared to their air resistance, fall their movement speed if knocked prone / restrained. They then have to make a Dex save at the start of their turn to recover their flight posture, or they fall again.
I'd hope my players checked their plans for this with me first as they might be disappointed.
For many large winged creatures I'd imagine them making wing movements similar to those of large eagles, vultures and sea birds, perhaps from 30 deg up to 30 deg down. I'd be happy to discuss the potential situation with players but, depending on the creature, it could be something like that. If this was the case the creature might be restrained and with a movement speed of zero but they still might have a lot of ~outstretched feathers to prevent any fast rate of falling.
However, for some large creatures, if you caught them just right, they might drop like stones.
Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
The creature hasn't necessarily been knocked prone. It's got some webbing around it's wings and effects may vary.
I'd hope my players checked their plans for this with me first as they might be disappointed.
For many large winged creatures I'd imagine them making wing movements similar to those of large eagles, vultures and sea birds, perhaps from 30 deg up to 30 deg down. I'd be happy to discuss the potential situation with players but, depending on the creature, it could be something like that. If this was the case the creature might be restrained and with a movement speed of zero but they still might have a lot of ~outstretched feathers to prevent any fast rate of falling.
However, for some large creatures, if you caught them just right, they might drop like stones.
Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
The creature hasn't necessarily been knocked prone. It's got some webbing around it's wings and effects may vary.
if they failed their save and are restrained I would say they got caught “just right”.
One thing to consider is that given that the spell doesn’t fade away until your next turn if the creature is restrained by the web is the web now anchored - to the creature you webbed and so does it disappear? another thought - you might want to put your web on an angle (\) above and ahead of the creature you are semi targeting so when it instant falls 500’ so it catches the creature.
I'd hope my players checked their plans for this with me first as they might be disappointed.
For many large winged creatures I'd imagine them making wing movements similar to those of large eagles, vultures and sea birds, perhaps from 30 deg up to 30 deg down. I'd be happy to discuss the potential situation with players but, depending on the creature, it could be something like that. If this was the case the creature might be restrained and with a movement speed of zero but they still might have a lot of ~outstretched feathers to prevent any fast rate of falling.
However, for some large creatures, if you caught them just right, they might drop like stones.
Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
The creature hasn't necessarily been knocked prone. It's got some webbing around it's wings and effects may vary.
if they failed their save and are restrained I would say they got caught “just right”.
Maybe.
Some RAI can be seen in RAW in that, even if the webs are secured to solid masses or surfaces, "A creature restrained by the webs can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC".
RAI is that webbing is created that has a limit in its strength.
I have a hard time imagining that this webbing would be capable of just folding up a massively powerful creature's wings and, in certain cases, I might also homebrew in an early strength save.
I interpret the saving throw as, if they fail, they got caught just right and their wings are not in a position to hold them aloft. If they make their save they are flying through the webs but the webs are affecting their flight, hence the difficult terrain and although they don’t plummet to the ground they have difficulty moving through the area until the spell ends.
What you are describing sounds to me more of a successful save. But it’s all interpretation.
Basically, your description of their wings still out so they don’t fall quite as fast sounds like a “half” save, which doesn’t exist in D&D
I interpret the saving throw as, if they fail, they got caught just right and their wings are not in a position to hold them aloft. If they make their save they are flying through the webs but the webs are affecting their flight, hence the difficult terrain and although they don’t plummet to the ground they have difficulty moving through the area until the spell ends.
What you are describing sounds to me more of a successful save. But it’s all interpretation.
Basically, your description of their wings still out so they don’t fall quite as fast sounds like a “half” save, which doesn’t exist in D&D
No both are saves. but I've just had a reread: ... If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. Webs layered over a flat surface have a depth of 5 feet.
Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free.
A creature restrained by the webs can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. If it succeeds, it is no longer restrained.
RAW, the save for not being restrained happens at the start of the creature's turn with the effect that the strength check so as to no longer be restrained can come immediately after. The immediate effect is that, a failed dex save means that you burn an action of target creature. On a failed strength save it plummets.
To say that the dex save comes before the creature's turn is a departure from RAW.
Hi. So assuming we cast web without anchoring, targeting a creature midair, it should only last until my next round. That should still be enough for the creature to fall to the ground if it fails its dex-save and thus becomes restrained turning its speed to 0. My question is regarding the second way to escape. If the creature fails its dex save it can spend its action to break lose. Given that a creature can choose to take its move before or after its actions, would a flying creature both have to fail its dex save, and then has a chance to spend its action making a str save before it would eventually fall to the ground?
I think it would not be allowed the str save because its speed have theoretically been reduced to 0 even if it never spent that movement yet as per the phb: If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell. (p. 191)
Thoughts?
My thought is that it would be great for the game in cases like this if people could link to the entire text. web
RAW dex save at beginning of turn failure then requires action for a strength save
making the dex save before the creature's turn would require homebrew
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Hi. So assuming we cast web without anchoring, targeting a creature midair, it should only last until my next round. That should still be enough for the creature to fall to the ground if it fails its dex-save and thus becomes restrained turning its speed to 0. My question is regarding the second way to escape. If the creature fails its dex save it can spend its action to break lose. Given that a creature can choose to take its move before or after its actions, would a flying creature both have to fail its dex save, and then has a chance to spend its action making a str save before it would eventually fall to the ground?
I think it would not be allowed the str save because its speed have theoretically been reduced to 0 even if it never spent that movement yet as per the phb: If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell. (p. 191)
Thoughts?
I would argue that the fall happens immediately at the beginning of the turn that they fail. If you knock a flying creature prone it doesn’t fall on its move phase, it falls immediately. So by my interpretation the Dex save would be rolled at the beginning and if it fails the fall happens before any other actions are attempted.
I could see a DM rule this another way if the fall was high enough possibly, using the Rule of Cool to judge accordingly.
I like your way of thinking. I love creative uses of spells. However I don't think the spell was intended to work this way.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. [...]
If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Your target for the spell is a point within range, not a creature.
And since there is no qualifying objects for the web to anchor to, the spell automagically fails.
I'm not a rules lawyering nerd (hate those guys), but I do feel that they worded this spell accordingly to prevent what you are wanting to do with it.
...cryptographic randomness!
True, but rule of cool states that webbing something out of the air is awesome. I’d 100% allow it in my game.
To me "the spell ends at the start of your next turn" doesn't sound like it fails immediately, but rather a little bit later. I'd say the webs would exist for one turn and the flying creature would make a save at the beginning of their turn and would fall if it failed, but then the webs would disappear at the beginning of the caster's next turn, freeing the creature.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That's an interesting (and awesome) way of reading it!
As I said before, I love creative uses of spells, and even though I don't think they intended it to work that way, I'd much rather reward my players...
...cryptographic randomness!
If the intent was that the spell fails if targeted without an anchor, it would say that. It pretty specifically says it lasts until the start of your next turn. On the original question, falling when speed is reduced to zero appears to be an immediate effect, and thus breaking free would not help. However, I would probably give a flying creature a chance to break free, as otherwise it seems a bit easy to knock giant monsters out of the air.
Originally the intent was that it failed. From my old AD&D book here:
These masses (webs) must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points, floor and ceiling, opposite walls, etc., or the web collapses upon itself and disappears.
After 30 years of never leaving second edition (switched to 5e less than 2 years ago) it's still hard to read all the nuances that 5e has made in changing their wording. Funny how I read the words of the spell twice, but still interpreted it the way it originally was written.
...cryptographic randomness!
I mean, you could target "The space between tip-to-tip of the wingspan, and head to tail of the creature." Assuming its something with wings that fits within the area of the Web spell, with that description you've effectively described a point within range. The creature just happens to be within it.
How do you think Spiders catch flying things... WEB *The webs are Difficult Terrain and lightly obscure their area.* as the spell says its THICCCCC and has a GooD MASS &
If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. So IT STILL EXIST IN THE UNIVER UNTILL YOUR NEXT TURN !!!!!!!!!!!! A FALLİNG MASSS OF WEB think for your selves at that moment
Anything Flying Should make a DEX save the moment casted if fail it falls as restrained/ if success it still flies and untill your next turn/web disapears its speed is halved I belive...
I would also allow this with rule of cool, but since it also says that creatures are only restrained while within the webs, a dm could argue they become restrained, fall out of the webs after falling a certain number of feet, then a flying creature could catch itself since its movement would be back
The point you are targeting can be in the creatures space, and it fills a 20 foot cube, which is probably enough to cause the creature to have to make the save. Think of it as one of those confetti poppers. You spray out the confetti into an area and they float to the ground, kind of like an unanchored web collapsing in on itself and ending the start of your next turn. Any person in the area of the confetti will have some stuck in their hair and clothes, just like webs sticking to a flying creature.
Edit: and as far as targeting a point not a creature, you don't target a creature when you are using in on ground based creatures, anchoring it or layering it on the ground, either. Creatures in the 20 foot cube treat it as difficult terrain and it's lightly obscured anchored or not. In the case of not anchored it lasts until the start of your next turn.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
RAW, yes, it falls immediately up to 500 feet. However, I feel the falling rules are a little bit harsh for flying creatures. They also don't make a lot of sense. A creature falls 500 feet if it stops flying, but can only fly downward up to twice its movement speed, and that only if it uses its action to dash. A common flying speed is 50 feet, so a creature can move downward between 0 and 100 feet, or exactly 500 feet, but not exactly 200 or 300 or 400 feet.
I rule that non-flying creatures do immediately fall 500 feet, but flying creatures, since by their nature they are light compared to their air resistance, fall their movement speed if knocked prone / restrained. They then have to make a Dex save at the start of their turn to recover their flight posture, or they fall again.
I'd hope my players checked their plans for this with me first as they might be disappointed.
For many large winged creatures I'd imagine them making wing movements similar to those of large eagles, vultures and sea birds, perhaps from 30 deg up to 30 deg down. I'd be happy to discuss the potential situation with players but, depending on the creature, it could be something like that. If this was the case the creature might be restrained and with a movement speed of zero but they still might have a lot of ~outstretched feathers to prevent any fast rate of falling.
However, for some large creatures, if you caught them just right, they might drop like stones.
Flying Movement
Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
The creature hasn't necessarily been knocked prone. It's got some webbing around it's wings and effects may vary.
if they failed their save and are restrained I would say they got caught “just right”.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
One thing to consider is that given that the spell doesn’t fade away until your next turn if the creature is restrained by the web is the web now anchored - to the creature you webbed and so does it disappear?
another thought - you might want to put your web on an angle (\) above and ahead of the creature you are semi targeting so when it instant falls 500’ so it catches the creature.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Maybe.
Some RAI can be seen in RAW in that, even if the webs are secured to solid masses or surfaces, "A creature restrained by the webs can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC".
RAI is that webbing is created that has a limit in its strength.
I have a hard time imagining that this webbing would be capable of just folding up a massively powerful creature's wings and, in certain cases, I might also homebrew in an early strength save.
I interpret the saving throw as, if they fail, they got caught just right and their wings are not in a position to hold them aloft. If they make their save they are flying through the webs but the webs are affecting their flight, hence the difficult terrain and although they don’t plummet to the ground they have difficulty moving through the area until the spell ends.
What you are describing sounds to me more of a successful save. But it’s all interpretation.
Basically, your description of their wings still out so they don’t fall quite as fast sounds like a “half” save, which doesn’t exist in D&D
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
No both are saves. but I've just had a reread:
...
If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. Webs layered over a flat surface have a depth of 5 feet.
Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free.
A creature restrained by the webs can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. If it succeeds, it is no longer restrained.
RAW, the save for not being restrained happens at the start of the creature's turn with the effect that the strength check so as to no longer be restrained can come immediately after. The immediate effect is that, a failed dex save means that you burn an action of target creature. On a failed strength save it plummets.
To say that the dex save comes before the creature's turn is a departure from RAW.
My thought is that it would be great for the game in cases like this if people could link to the entire text.
web
RAW
dex save at beginning of turn
failure then requires action for a strength save
making the dex save before the creature's turn would require homebrew