Pulling this discussion out of the Eberron thread to get more opinion. Artificer Alchemists have an ability granted at 5th level that grants (an additional) +INT Bonus to damage/heal dice for spells cast.
It may be a little murky, but it seems the rules essentially lay out that the bonus applies to a Magic Items. For example, Circlet of Blasting should still use the Alchemical Savant feature (adding the user's INT bonus when using the item) as long as the magic item says "use an action to cast the <spell name> spell". The only place it seems there is a little grey area is using the caster's spellcasting focus, which is required for Alchemical Savant.
For the reasons below (emphasis mine):
Alchemical Savant
At 5th level, you develop masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them. Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
So I take this to mean when you cast any spell ... any time the rules say "you cast a spell". Not necessarily any time you cast one of your own prepared spells. You just have to use your Alchemist Supplies (which, as an Artificer Alchemist, I'm generally always doing).
Circlet of Blasting
While wearing this circlet, you can use an action to cast the scorching ray spell with it. When you make the spell's attacks, you do so with an attack bonus of +5. The circlet can't be used this way again until the next dawn.
It doesn't say anywhere on the circlet that you can't use a spell focus.
In the DMG, it states the following under "Activating a Magic Item":
Spells
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no componentsunless the item’s description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
So activating the magic item's spell use doesn't require components (which I take to mean all of the components including Material, or a Spellcasting Focus), it doesn't say you cannot use components.
My takeaway, mechanically and thematically, is that I'm casting a fire spell, and while casting it, using my chemical knowledge and my alchemy kit to enhance the fire effect being cast.
I think it makes sense for such bonuses to apply to spells from magic items as well; it’s very artificer. But it’s definitely not by the rules. Mechanically, you can’t do anything with a focus except material components. Artificer has an exception to this: all their spells require tools, but that’s just their own spells.
Here’s how the rules say you can use a focus: “A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell.”
Artificer exception aside, if there are no components to replace, you can’t use a focus.
So yeah, neat idea, could be a fun house rule. But definitely not supported by the text as-is.
That rule is specified under Components - Material. Full quote from PHB:
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell.
By your logic, a spell MUST have a Material component in order to replace it with a Spellcasting Focus ... which nearly all offensive Artificer spells do not have. They would not add the AM bonus spells such as Acid Splash, Firebolt, Poison Spray, Healing Word or Cure Wounds -- since there are no components to replace. That would be bonkers!
I specifically mentioned the Artificer’s exception, which only applies to their own spells. Please read my entire comment before responding with things I’ve already addressed :p
Apologies, I'm not trying to blast you or anything, just work through this and find the correct solution. You mentioned using it as a house rule, and is not supported by the rules ... which I think is where I might disagree.
The Artificer does say you must use Tools to cast spells ... but doesn't specifically say their own spells. It would be nice if this combination was more specifically called out in the Artificer rules, but I don't see a place where the rules prohibits it.
It DOES say their own spells. The exact text is as follows:
”You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature.”
”With this Spellcasting feature” is the relevant phrase here.
The rules also don’t prohibit using a focus to substitute for Verbal spellcasting components, because the rules don’t work by prohibiting things. They tell you how things DO work, not how they don’t. Spellcasting foci fulfill most material component requirements and nothing else, because the rules say that’s what they do and don’t say they do anything else (again, Artificer caveat aside).
Again, it’s a neat idea that seems thematically appropriate, and DMs should be encouraged to improvise things like this. That the rules don’t support something is never a hard no outside of Adventurer’s League.
Ah, I see what you mean. I wasn't evaluating "... with this Spellcasting feature" as pointing back to the "Tools Required" part, but back to "Spellcasting" as a feature. It's murky, for sure.
This is a line where the rules might 'prohibit' pairing AM with Magic Items.
Hopping in to say, the whole "focuses that provide bonuses/features that provide bonuses when using a focus can only be used for M-containing spells!" is yet another perverse and unintended consequence of reading Chapter 10 in a way that precludes casting S spells through a focus (which the rules explicitly say you can do). All of the Artificer attack spells involve an S, so RAW you can hold your focus (artisan tools) in place of that S, and thus cast them through the tools. There, no problem.
As for the original question about whether you can choose to use components that a spell doesn't actually ask for (such as adding an S or an M to a spell cast from a magic item that allows you to cast that spell with no components, or using a class feature like the Shadow Monk's which casts spells with no components)... I don't see anything written that would suggest you can do that.
Hopping in to say, the whole "focuses that provide bonuses/features that provide bonuses when using a focus can only be used for M-containing spells!" is yet another perverse and unintended consequence of reading Chapter 10 in a way that precludes casting S spells through a focus (which the rules explicitly say you can do). All of the Artificer attack spells involve an S, so RAW you can hold your focus (artisan tools) in place of that S, and thus cast them through the tools. There, no problem.
I super do not want to re-litigate this particular discussion, but I do want to make clear what the rules actually say, as well as the more contentious aspect of the topic.
First of all, the rules 100% do not explicitly say you can cast somatic spells through a focus. What they say is that you can fulfill a somatic component with the same hand that you use to hold a focus. These are different statements. Absolutely nothing says that a focus can be used to fulfill somatic components; a focus just doesn't get in your way when you're performing somatic components. You cannot hold a focus "in place" of a somatic component. It's irrelevant whether or not you're holding a focus in that hand. The focus doesn't replace anything about the somatic component, but neither does it interfere with your ability to perform the somatic component. That's what the RAW is, unambiguously, for spells that have material components.
The contentious point is whether or not the previous statement is still true when a spell doesn't have a material component. I am very firmly in the "yes, it is" camp, and it sounds like you are as well, but Jeremy Crawford is not, and a lot of this forum is not. It's not relevant to this thread in any case.
The fact that all Artificer spells have a somatic component is also not relevant, because all Artificer spells already explicitly require a spellcasting focus; this is part of the Artificer's Spellcasting feature, and it only applies to spells cast with that feature, not to spells cast from magic items or to spells cast by virtue of a second multi-classed spellcasting class.
It sounds like we agree that nothing in the rules allows someone to derive mechanical benefit from a component a spell doesn't involve, however, so... yaaay.
Saga, you are technically correct... which is of course the best kind of correct, I am aghast at my cavalier language. And I entirely forgot that Artificers add their own special T(ool) component on all of their spells due to their special restriction.
The new Artificer's "Enhanced Arcane Focus" infusion is literally the only thing anywhere which states directly that a focus might provide a mechanical effect to spells in general instead of merely working as a substitute for those using M components, and being disregarded as an occupied hand for those with S components. The other Imbued Wood Focus only apply to spells cast while "using this item as your spellcasting focus," which would really just be M and S spells. Everything else just says that you can "use them as a focus," and using something as a focus just means using it instead of an M and ignoring it while using an S. The effect of an "Enhanced Arcane Focus - Wand" only requires you to hold it, not use it as a focus for that spell, so really it would provide its bonus to other types of spellcasters that couldn't use wands as a spell focus as well, and also(correction: any spellcaster can use it as a focus, not just arcane focus users) any spells cast out of magic items, even if they had to seperately hold their druid/bard/holy symbol/magic spellcasting item to cast their spell.
Even if you allow casting spells that lack an M component through a focus, it won't affect casting spells from items, because you can only use a spellcasting focus if you have a feature that permits using a spellcasting focus with a given type of spell, and artificers do not have a feature that allows them to use a spellcasting focus with an item spell.
But yes, allowing using a spellcasting focus for spells that lack an M component would be helpful.
For the reasons below (emphasis mine):
So I take this to mean when you cast any spell ... any time the rules say "you cast a spell". Not necessarily any time you cast one of your own prepared spells. You just have to use your Alchemist Supplies (which, as an Artificer Alchemist, I'm generally always doing).
It doesn't say anywhere on the circlet that you can't use a spell focus.
In the DMG, it states the following under "Activating a Magic Item":
So activating the magic item's spell use doesn't require components (which I take to mean all of the components including Material, or a Spellcasting Focus), it doesn't say you cannot use components.
My takeaway, mechanically and thematically, is that I'm casting a fire spell, and while casting it, using my chemical knowledge and my alchemy kit to enhance the fire effect being cast.
I think it makes sense for such bonuses to apply to spells from magic items as well; it’s very artificer. But it’s definitely not by the rules. Mechanically, you can’t do anything with a focus except material components. Artificer has an exception to this: all their spells require tools, but that’s just their own spells.
Here’s how the rules say you can use a focus: “A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell.”
Artificer exception aside, if there are no components to replace, you can’t use a focus.
So yeah, neat idea, could be a fun house rule. But definitely not supported by the text as-is.
That rule is specified under Components - Material. Full quote from PHB:
By your logic, a spell MUST have a Material component in order to replace it with a Spellcasting Focus ... which nearly all offensive Artificer spells do not have. They would not add the AM bonus spells such as Acid Splash, Firebolt, Poison Spray, Healing Word or Cure Wounds -- since there are no components to replace. That would be bonkers!
I specifically mentioned the Artificer’s exception, which only applies to their own spells. Please read my entire comment before responding with things I’ve already addressed :p
Apologies, I'm not trying to blast you or anything, just work through this and find the correct solution. You mentioned using it as a house rule, and is not supported by the rules ... which I think is where I might disagree.
The Artificer does say you must use Tools to cast spells ... but doesn't specifically say their own spells. It would be nice if this combination was more specifically called out in the Artificer rules, but I don't see a place where the rules prohibits it.
It DOES say their own spells. The exact text is as follows:
”You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature.”
”With this Spellcasting feature” is the relevant phrase here.
The rules also don’t prohibit using a focus to substitute for Verbal spellcasting components, because the rules don’t work by prohibiting things. They tell you how things DO work, not how they don’t. Spellcasting foci fulfill most material component requirements and nothing else, because the rules say that’s what they do and don’t say they do anything else (again, Artificer caveat aside).
Again, it’s a neat idea that seems thematically appropriate, and DMs should be encouraged to improvise things like this. That the rules don’t support something is never a hard no outside of Adventurer’s League.
Ah, I see what you mean. I wasn't evaluating "... with this Spellcasting feature" as pointing back to the "Tools Required" part, but back to "Spellcasting" as a feature. It's murky, for sure.
This is a line where the rules might 'prohibit' pairing AM with Magic Items.
Hopping in to say, the whole "focuses that provide bonuses/features that provide bonuses when using a focus can only be used for M-containing spells!" is yet another perverse and unintended consequence of reading Chapter 10 in a way that precludes casting S spells through a focus (which the rules explicitly say you can do). All of the Artificer attack spells involve an S, so RAW you can hold your focus (artisan tools) in place of that S, and thus cast them through the tools. There, no problem.
As for the original question about whether you can choose to use components that a spell doesn't actually ask for (such as adding an S or an M to a spell cast from a magic item that allows you to cast that spell with no components, or using a class feature like the Shadow Monk's which casts spells with no components)... I don't see anything written that would suggest you can do that.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I super do not want to re-litigate this particular discussion, but I do want to make clear what the rules actually say, as well as the more contentious aspect of the topic.
First of all, the rules 100% do not explicitly say you can cast somatic spells through a focus. What they say is that you can fulfill a somatic component with the same hand that you use to hold a focus. These are different statements. Absolutely nothing says that a focus can be used to fulfill somatic components; a focus just doesn't get in your way when you're performing somatic components. You cannot hold a focus "in place" of a somatic component. It's irrelevant whether or not you're holding a focus in that hand. The focus doesn't replace anything about the somatic component, but neither does it interfere with your ability to perform the somatic component. That's what the RAW is, unambiguously, for spells that have material components.
The contentious point is whether or not the previous statement is still true when a spell doesn't have a material component. I am very firmly in the "yes, it is" camp, and it sounds like you are as well, but Jeremy Crawford is not, and a lot of this forum is not. It's not relevant to this thread in any case.
The fact that all Artificer spells have a somatic component is also not relevant, because all Artificer spells already explicitly require a spellcasting focus; this is part of the Artificer's Spellcasting feature, and it only applies to spells cast with that feature, not to spells cast from magic items or to spells cast by virtue of a second multi-classed spellcasting class.
It sounds like we agree that nothing in the rules allows someone to derive mechanical benefit from a component a spell doesn't involve, however, so... yaaay.
Saga, you are technically correct... which is of course the best kind of correct, I am aghast at my cavalier language. And I entirely forgot that Artificers add their own special T(ool) component on all of their spells due to their special restriction.
The new Artificer's "Enhanced Arcane Focus" infusion is literally the only thing anywhere which states directly that a focus might provide a mechanical effect to spells in general instead of merely working as a substitute for those using M components, and being disregarded as an occupied hand for those with S components. The other Imbued Wood Focus only apply to spells cast while "using this item as your spellcasting focus," which would really just be M and S spells. Everything else just says that you can "use them as a focus," and using something as a focus just means using it instead of an M and ignoring it while using an S. The effect of an "Enhanced Arcane Focus - Wand" only requires you to hold it, not use it as a focus for that spell, so really it would provide its bonus to
other types of spellcasters that couldn't use wands as a spell focus as well, and also(correction: any spellcaster can use it as a focus, not just arcane focus users) any spells cast out of magic items, even if they had to seperately hold theirdruid/bard/holy symbol/magic spellcasting item to cast their spell.What a cluster.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Even if you allow casting spells that lack an M component through a focus, it won't affect casting spells from items, because you can only use a spellcasting focus if you have a feature that permits using a spellcasting focus with a given type of spell, and artificers do not have a feature that allows them to use a spellcasting focus with an item spell.
But yes, allowing using a spellcasting focus for spells that lack an M component would be helpful.