I would say three, but I’d understand an argument for one, since each missile is a separate damage roll. But nothing in the language of Empower Spell limits it to a single damage roll (contrast this with the Draconic bloodline’s Elemental Affinity feature), so I think such an argument is without merit.
The rule for spells that do multiple damages (magic missile, eldritch blast, scorching ray) are virtually nonexistent. So up to DM whether empower spell effects 1 damage roll or multiple.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
Then Jeremy Crawford should have put that in the books. When the RAW and the RAI don't match, then the devs didn't do a great job writing that rule. Unfortunately, there are a few dozen rules that are like this (which is why I'm in favor of a PHB 2.0).
Magic Missile is one of those spells I've never seen a consensus on. Some say 1 roll - others say 1 roll for each missile.
In either case though - if you have a Cha of 16 you can reroll 3 dice. So you could either reroll the 1 single dice or you could reroll 3 of the X amount of missiles you fired. At least - that's how I imagine it works with an admittedly very brief read of the metamagic.
Magic Missile is one of those spells I've never seen a consensus on. Some say 1 roll - others say 1 roll for each missile.
In either case though - if you have a Cha of 16 you can reroll 3 dice. So you could either reroll the 1 single dice or you could reroll 3 of the X amount of missiles you fired. At least - that's how I imagine it works with an admittedly very brief read of the metamagic.
I say 1 roll because it makes Evokers really, really silly at 10th level. :)
Yeah I've always read spells with multiple targets to roll damage once, not once for each target or effected creature. Though, spells that do damage on different turns to different creatures are where I start to draw the line and instead roll new dice on new turns, Spirit Guardians for example. Generally, rolling damage once is better for player class features, and faster for the table as a whole, so I don't see a good reason to roll seperately against each target during a fireball.
Though, I suppose Eldritch Blast I've always assumed had a seperate damage roll for each blast beam... jeez, have I just been playing it both ways without realizing it? oof.
Yeah I've always read spells with multiple targets to roll damage once, not once for each target or effected creature. Though, spells that do damage on different turns to different creatures are where I start to draw the line and instead roll new dice on new turns, Spirit Guardians for example. Generally, rolling damage once is better for player class features, and faster for the table as a whole, so I don't see a good reason to roll seperately against each target during a fireball.
Though, I suppose Eldritch Blast I've always assumed had a seperate damage roll for each blast beam... jeez, have I just been playing it both ways without realizing it? oof.
If we accept Crawford's tweet linked above as correctly assessing RAW, then yes, Eldritch Blast is a single damage roll that gets copied across blasts. But no one plays that way because it's stupid.
The line I draw in my head (which is a personal line, not one written in any rulebook) is that each indivisible component is a single damage roll. Every target of a Fireball is being affected by the same thing. But each dart of Magic Missile (or each beam of an Eldritch Blast) is a separate thing. The published rule on damage rolls makes "spell" that indivisible unit, but again, that's dumb, so I supply my own reasoning (which Crawford seems to say is the intent).
Is there a line to draw between spells that provide ""the target takes x damage" (separate damage rolls for each target) vs "each creature [in the area] takes x damage" (one roll)? I know that some spells use one and some the other, but it doesn't strike me as an intentional distinction, so probably not a good place to draw the line given that Fireball would fall in the separate damage rolls camp.
Is there a line to draw between spells that provide ""the target takes x damage" (separate damage rolls for each target) vs "each creature [in the area] takes x damage" (one roll)? I know that some spells use one and some the other, but it doesn't strike me as an intentional distinction, so probably not a good place to draw the line given that Fireball would fall in the separate damage rolls camp.
No. There are a variety of wordings that spells use, they are not uniform enough to make that distinction. Consider even fireball, your example. In the sentence just before it says "a target takes X damage," the spell uses the other terminology "each creature" when stating what needs to make a save. I don't think anyone would disagree that those two sentences are talking about the same group of creatures.
Several of the area spells that use "[a or the] target" terminology also use "each creature" terminology when describing what makes saves just like fireball. The structure for area of effect spells that provide a save tends to be: a sentence describing what makes what kind of save (often using "each creature") then a sentence describing the damage (often using "a target"). And again, I can't use absolutes here because there are so many different spells with so many minor wording variations that I think are intended to convey the same thing.
The split I tend to make is the same as Saga's: if all the creatures are being affected by one discrete effect at one time, they get the same damage. If they're multiple effects or at different times, I'll likely re-roll. This is certainly a houserule, but if my DM puts some of his creatures on the same initiative, I'll even just use one damage roll for "start of its next turn" effects for that initiative group.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
Example: Let's say I cast magic missile and roll three 1s. Given a high enough CHA modifier, can I reroll all three or just one?
Back to the OP's question, I'd say that however you choose to roll magic missile, empowered spell would work the same. If you roll a d4 for each dart, then up to 3 could be rerolled. If you use a single roll, then you can only reroll a single time. The metamagic says only "when you roll damage for a spell," so it is not limited to rerolling dice on "one damage roll" like some other features are. If you cast a spell, and X damage dice come with that spell, then you can reroll up to (cha mod) of those X dice.
The only issue with magic missile is that it looks to be limited to a single instance of rolling damage, so if you figure that you are "rolling damage" once per missile, it would only apply once, but if you are "rolling damage" once per spell, you can reroll any of them. I would generally say that, unless you can make decisions between hits (my first two magic missiles dropped that goblin, I'll use a third on a different goblin), the entire spell should be treated as a single instance of rolling damage.
The only issue with magic missile is that it looks to be limited to a single instance of rolling damage, so if you figure that you are "rolling damage" once per missile, it would only apply once, but if you are "rolling damage" once per spell, you can reroll any of them. I would generally say that, unless you can make decisions between hits (my first two magic missiles dropped that goblin, I'll use a third on a different goblin), the entire spell should be treated as a single instance of rolling damage.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
Then Jeremy Crawford should have put that in the books. When the RAW and the RAI don't match, then the devs didn't do a great job writing that rule. Unfortunately, there are a few dozen rules that are like this (which is why I'm in favor of a PHB 2.0).
pretty sure it’s in the book?
And by in the book I mean: the book does not specifically say roll a x for each dart.
Where it does for Scorching Ray, and eldritch blast.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
Then Jeremy Crawford should have put that in the books. When the RAW and the RAI don't match, then the devs didn't do a great job writing that rule. Unfortunately, there are a few dozen rules that are like this (which is why I'm in favor of a PHB 2.0).
pretty sure it’s in the book?
And by in the book I mean: the book does not specifically say roll a 1d4 for each dart.
Where it does for Scorching Ray, and eldritch blast.
The book does not say that for Scorching Ray or for Eldritch Blast. It says each component is a separate attack roll, which 1) cannot be construed as "a separate damage roll" and 2) is not at all relevant to Magic Missile, which doesn't involve any attack rolls at all.
By my reading, if anything, Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile actually read the opposite of that. For MM"a dart" deals 1d4+1, suggesting each dart rolls its own die. Meanwhile for EB, "the target" takes 1d10, suggesting that you could roll that 1d10 just once for any number of target(s).
So yes, if there was an intent that it worked one way or the other, it probably should have been written more clearly or errata'd.
Example: Let's say I cast magic missile and roll three 1s. Given a high enough CHA modifier, can I reroll all three or just one?
I would say three, but I’d understand an argument for one, since each missile is a separate damage roll. But nothing in the language of Empower Spell limits it to a single damage roll (contrast this with the Draconic bloodline’s Elemental Affinity feature), so I think such an argument is without merit.
The rule for spells that do multiple damages (magic missile, eldritch blast, scorching ray) are virtually nonexistent. So up to DM whether empower spell effects 1 damage roll or multiple.
According to Jeremy Crawford, Magic Missile involves exactly one damage roll, and all the darts cue off that roll. So, if you roll a 1, you could empower it to reroll your d4.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774302859609251840
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Then Jeremy Crawford should have put that in the books. When the RAW and the RAI don't match, then the devs didn't do a great job writing that rule. Unfortunately, there are a few dozen rules that are like this (which is why I'm in favor of a PHB 2.0).
Magic Missile is one of those spells I've never seen a consensus on. Some say 1 roll - others say 1 roll for each missile.
In either case though - if you have a Cha of 16 you can reroll 3 dice. So you could either reroll the 1 single dice or you could reroll 3 of the X amount of missiles you fired. At least - that's how I imagine it works with an admittedly very brief read of the metamagic.
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I say 1 roll because it makes Evokers really, really silly at 10th level. :)
Either way, I agree with your analysis.
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Yeah I've always read spells with multiple targets to roll damage once, not once for each target or effected creature. Though, spells that do damage on different turns to different creatures are where I start to draw the line and instead roll new dice on new turns, Spirit Guardians for example. Generally, rolling damage once is better for player class features, and faster for the table as a whole, so I don't see a good reason to roll seperately against each target during a fireball.
Though, I suppose Eldritch Blast I've always assumed had a seperate damage roll for each blast beam... jeez, have I just been playing it both ways without realizing it? oof.
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Out of curiosity, which way do you fall on Scorching Ray?
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
If we accept Crawford's tweet linked above as correctly assessing RAW, then yes, Eldritch Blast is a single damage roll that gets copied across blasts. But no one plays that way because it's stupid.
The line I draw in my head (which is a personal line, not one written in any rulebook) is that each indivisible component is a single damage roll. Every target of a Fireball is being affected by the same thing. But each dart of Magic Missile (or each beam of an Eldritch Blast) is a separate thing. The published rule on damage rolls makes "spell" that indivisible unit, but again, that's dumb, so I supply my own reasoning (which Crawford seems to say is the intent).
Is there a line to draw between spells that provide ""the target takes x damage" (separate damage rolls for each target) vs "each creature [in the area] takes x damage" (one roll)? I know that some spells use one and some the other, but it doesn't strike me as an intentional distinction, so probably not a good place to draw the line given that Fireball would fall in the separate damage rolls camp.
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No. There are a variety of wordings that spells use, they are not uniform enough to make that distinction. Consider even fireball, your example. In the sentence just before it says "a target takes X damage," the spell uses the other terminology "each creature" when stating what needs to make a save. I don't think anyone would disagree that those two sentences are talking about the same group of creatures.
Several of the area spells that use "[a or the] target" terminology also use "each creature" terminology when describing what makes saves just like fireball. The structure for area of effect spells that provide a save tends to be: a sentence describing what makes what kind of save (often using "each creature") then a sentence describing the damage (often using "a target"). And again, I can't use absolutes here because there are so many different spells with so many minor wording variations that I think are intended to convey the same thing.
The split I tend to make is the same as Saga's: if all the creatures are being affected by one discrete effect at one time, they get the same damage. If they're multiple effects or at different times, I'll likely re-roll. This is certainly a houserule, but if my DM puts some of his creatures on the same initiative, I'll even just use one damage roll for "start of its next turn" effects for that initiative group.
People like to roll a bunch of dice
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Back to the OP's question, I'd say that however you choose to roll magic missile, empowered spell would work the same. If you roll a d4 for each dart, then up to 3 could be rerolled. If you use a single roll, then you can only reroll a single time. The metamagic says only "when you roll damage for a spell," so it is not limited to rerolling dice on "one damage roll" like some other features are. If you cast a spell, and X damage dice come with that spell, then you can reroll up to (cha mod) of those X dice.
The only issue with magic missile is that it looks to be limited to a single instance of rolling damage, so if you figure that you are "rolling damage" once per missile, it would only apply once, but if you are "rolling damage" once per spell, you can reroll any of them. I would generally say that, unless you can make decisions between hits (my first two magic missiles dropped that goblin, I'll use a third on a different goblin), the entire spell should be treated as a single instance of rolling damage.
Nope. See Saga's post (#2 in this thread).
Magic missile is only 1 dice roll.
Blank
pretty sure it’s in the book?
And by in the book I mean: the book does not specifically say roll a x for each dart.
Where it does for Scorching Ray, and eldritch blast.
Blank
The book does not say that for Scorching Ray or for Eldritch Blast. It says each component is a separate attack roll, which 1) cannot be construed as "a separate damage roll" and 2) is not at all relevant to Magic Missile, which doesn't involve any attack rolls at all.
By my reading, if anything, Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile actually read the opposite of that. For MM"a dart" deals 1d4+1, suggesting each dart rolls its own die. Meanwhile for EB, "the target" takes 1d10, suggesting that you could roll that 1d10 just once for any number of target(s).
So yes, if there was an intent that it worked one way or the other, it probably should have been written more clearly or errata'd.
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