So the biggest complaint that most people have with animate undead and create undead tends to lean on the idea that there is no progression to be a true necromancer. The minions are weak for the cost in spells required to maintain them; this makes it nonviable to be a necromancer, instead just using dark magic labeled necromancy with no buff to use them as a necromancer unlike every other wizard school. Then once you hit 14th level you suddenly unlock Command Undead which allows you to have a single a loyal or semi-loyal permanent minion which every novice 4th CR enemy necromancer or cultist can do in any of the official game books.
You'd think it wouldn't go from zombies, to ghouls, to suddenly being able to command a greater undead when there is so much in-between. To include, your options are restricted to only a small fraction of undead until you hit 14th and then you open the floodgates to all undead, but at that point all the lower level undead which would have made for fun minions are no longer viable in any campaign.
So then why instead was Animate Dead and Create Undead not made like Animate object were you are given a cost association with bigger and better creatures at the cost of number of objects or in this case undead animated? You are given an arbitrary number with harshly limited options of undead. I feel as if the Animate Objects should have been what the undead summoning was modeled after, removing the concentration and adding a CR to point cost in undead raising; this while also keeping the need to cast daily to maintain so the player can't spawn indefinitely. Thus there would only be a need for one spell to raise undead rather then 2 and a feature, with a level scaling point growth so as the player levels they can summon new and stronger minions.
After all what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead? At that point its just an occult caster. That's my two cents, feel free to say your thoughts below and anything you have found to work in place of Create and Animate undead.
what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead?
Raising the dead is a big part of a stereotypical necromancer, but there are a great many necromancy spells that have nothing to do with zombies or corpses.
Then once you hit 14th level you suddenly unlock Command Undead which allows you to have a single a loyal or semi-loyal permanent minion which every novice 4th CR enemy necromancer or cultist can do in any of the official game books.
Not sure what CR4 necromancer or cultist you are talking about. Also CR4 is roughly equal to a single level 8 or higher PC.
So then why instead was Animate Dead and Create Undead not made like Animate object were you are given a cost association with bigger and better creatures at the cost of number of objects or in this case undead animated? You are given an arbitrary number with harshly limited options of undead. I feel as if the Animate Objects should have been what the undead summoning was modeled after, removing the concentration and adding a CR to point cost in undead raising; this while also keeping the need to cast daily to maintain so the player can't spawn indefinitely. Thus there would only be a need for one spell to raise undead rather then 2 and a feature, with a level scaling point growth so as the player levels they can summon new and stronger minions.
After all what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead? At that point its just an occult caster. That's my two cents, feel free to say your thoughts below and anything you have found to work in place of Create and Animate undead.
Create undead does have a reduce number for better undead option at higher level. And you realize that a necromancer can eventually have an army of over a hundred undead without concentration right?
Command Undead is overpowered in the right circumstances. All you need is a simulacrum of yourself, and to go to the Negative Energy Plane with Plane Shift, and then finding 2 Nightwalkers, and both of you use Command Undead, and now you have 2 CR 20 undead under your command forever.
Mummy Lords are also a good use of this ability.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead?
Raising the dead is a big part of a stereotypical necromancer, but there are a great many necromancy spells that have nothing to do with zombies or corpses.
TexasDevin, keep in mind the "or have any reason to interact with the dead?" part, as a necromancer is all about manipulating death. Communicating or Controlling, not just one or the other. There few opportunities to speak with the undead or reasons to in 5e. Having spells which make ghosts tell you a targets weakness or secrets would be a much more useful spell then the little used Speak with Dead that clerics get.
Then once you hit 14th level you suddenly unlock Command Undead which allows you to have a single a loyal or semi-loyal permanent minion which every novice 4th CR enemy necromancer or cultist can do in any of the official game books.
Not sure what CR4 necromancer or cultist you are talking about. Also CR4 is roughly equal to a single level 8 or higher PC.
So then why instead was Animate Dead and Create Undead not made like Animate object were you are given a cost association with bigger and better creatures at the cost of number of objects or in this case undead animated? You are given an arbitrary number with harshly limited options of undead. I feel as if the Animate Objects should have been what the undead summoning was modeled after, removing the concentration and adding a CR to point cost in undead raising; this while also keeping the need to cast daily to maintain so the player can't spawn indefinitely. Thus there would only be a need for one spell to raise undead rather then 2 and a feature, with a level scaling point growth so as the player levels they can summon new and stronger minions.
After all what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead? At that point its just an occult caster. That's my two cents, feel free to say your thoughts below and anything you have found to work in place of Create and Animate undead.
Create undead does have a reduce number for better undead option at higher level. And you realize that a necromancer can eventually have an army of over a hundred undead without concentration right?
DxJxC, few if any DMs will ever allow the management of tens or let alone hundreds of undead. Individually the choices are weak for the level you get them, thus having a level scaling feature like Animate Object based on CR would allow a player to choose any undead rather then only specific undead which don't have much utility as individual minions.
Command Undead is overpowered in the right circumstances. All you need is a simulacrum of yourself, and to go to the Negative Energy Plane with Plane Shift, and then finding 2 Nightwalkers, and both of you use Command Undead, and now you have 2 CR 20 undead under your command forever.
Mummy Lords are also a good use of this ability.
LeviRocks, agreed you can do some powerful things with Command undead, with a mummy lord minion and using all your spell slots on animate undead you can summon 2k hp worth of zombies, though compared to Animate Dead and Create Undead. it as if the power scale goes from a 1, to a 4, to a 10 skipping any growth in-between. Making the necromancer a zombie spawner in minecraft opposed to a necromancer which experiments and communicates with the dead.
Look, I get you want a guy who specializes in raising undead minions. I do too. I even created a homebrew subclass based around this concept. But you can't say you're not a necromancer if you don't do that because all the spells I just listed are from the school of necromancy and a specialist in that school of magic is by definition a necromancer. You could build a necromancer who had nothing but necromancy spells and none of those spells would have to involve raising the dead or interacting with the dead.
Ahem. I have a build where by level nine I could have over fifty undead. Necromancy subclass Get to level six and you can have the spell for free to get some dead mineons. but also instead of raising only one undead you can raise two. then you simply need metamagic to twinspell it and summon four undead with only a single spell. then you also put some points into warlock so you can start converting pact stuff into spell slots to boost the amount you can have up at one time. simply take every single option that allows you to refuel and pump up how many things your spells affect. if you want to have ghouls or anything like that simply talk with the DM because it's not hard to simply say yes and or homebrew how it's summoned and what the pros and cons are. in my opinion a necromancer should be something of an opportunist and a medic because they ultimately have more knowledge of death than anyone and can help out whenever someone is hurt or dying from something. they aren't evil or aweful by nature it's simply just using opportunity to an advantage as if your body guards were killed from bandits then I would defenately want to go back and get some guards but that risks attack. a necromancer may not enjoy doing it but they can raise the fallen to escort themselves to a town of sorts so they can be laid to rest and the necromancer can restock. just because the magic is dark doesn't mean you need to play some insane corrupted character. at most I think a necromancer would be awkward but generally good natured because they have spent a long while alone.
Point is. you can try coffee lock necromancer but any and all necromancers shouldn't be played like a bunch of raving lunatics but rather a kinder soul that would much rather give the dead a proper burial than go around desecrating graveyards.
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Animate Object vs Animate Undead
So the biggest complaint that most people have with animate undead and create undead tends to lean on the idea that there is no progression to be a true necromancer. The minions are weak for the cost in spells required to maintain them; this makes it nonviable to be a necromancer, instead just using dark magic labeled necromancy with no buff to use them as a necromancer unlike every other wizard school. Then once you hit 14th level you suddenly unlock Command Undead which allows you to have a single a loyal or semi-loyal permanent minion which every novice 4th CR enemy necromancer or cultist can do in any of the official game books.
You'd think it wouldn't go from zombies, to ghouls, to suddenly being able to command a greater undead when there is so much in-between. To include, your options are restricted to only a small fraction of undead until you hit 14th and then you open the floodgates to all undead, but at that point all the lower level undead which would have made for fun minions are no longer viable in any campaign.
So then why instead was Animate Dead and Create Undead not made like Animate object were you are given a cost association with bigger and better creatures at the cost of number of objects or in this case undead animated? You are given an arbitrary number with harshly limited options of undead. I feel as if the Animate Objects should have been what the undead summoning was modeled after, removing the concentration and adding a CR to point cost in undead raising; this while also keeping the need to cast daily to maintain so the player can't spawn indefinitely. Thus there would only be a need for one spell to raise undead rather then 2 and a feature, with a level scaling point growth so as the player levels they can summon new and stronger minions.
After all what is a necromancer if they don't raise the dead or have any reason to interact with the dead? At that point its just an occult caster. That's my two cents, feel free to say your thoughts below and anything you have found to work in place of Create and Animate undead.
Raising the dead is a big part of a stereotypical necromancer, but there are a great many necromancy spells that have nothing to do with zombies or corpses.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not sure what CR4 necromancer or cultist you are talking about. Also CR4 is roughly equal to a single level 8 or higher PC.
Create undead does have a reduce number for better undead option at higher level. And you realize that a necromancer can eventually have an army of over a hundred undead without concentration right?
Command Undead is overpowered in the right circumstances. All you need is a simulacrum of yourself, and to go to the Negative Energy Plane with Plane Shift, and then finding 2 Nightwalkers, and both of you use Command Undead, and now you have 2 CR 20 undead under your command forever.
Mummy Lords are also a good use of this ability.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
TexasDevin, keep in mind the "or have any reason to interact with the dead?" part, as a necromancer is all about manipulating death. Communicating or Controlling, not just one or the other. There few opportunities to speak with the undead or reasons to in 5e. Having spells which make ghosts tell you a targets weakness or secrets would be a much more useful spell then the little used Speak with Dead that clerics get.
DxJxC, few if any DMs will ever allow the management of tens or let alone hundreds of undead. Individually the choices are weak for the level you get them, thus having a level scaling feature like Animate Object based on CR would allow a player to choose any undead rather then only specific undead which don't have much utility as individual minions.
LeviRocks, agreed you can do some powerful things with Command undead, with a mummy lord minion and using all your spell slots on animate undead you can summon 2k hp worth of zombies, though compared to Animate Dead and Create Undead. it as if the power scale goes from a 1, to a 4, to a 10 skipping any growth in-between. Making the necromancer a zombie spawner in minecraft opposed to a necromancer which experiments and communicates with the dead.
Thank you for your clarification. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I don't know if you can really speak for most people, as you claim.
Chill touch, toll the dead, cause fear, inflict wounds, ray of sickness, blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement, bestow curse, vampiric touch, blight, shadow of moil, contagion, enervation, circle of death, eyebite, harm, Abi-Dalzim’s horrid wilting, clone, astral projection. None of those spells have anything to do with raising the dead or interacting with the dead.
Look, I get you want a guy who specializes in raising undead minions. I do too. I even created a homebrew subclass based around this concept. But you can't say you're not a necromancer if you don't do that because all the spells I just listed are from the school of necromancy and a specialist in that school of magic is by definition a necromancer. You could build a necromancer who had nothing but necromancy spells and none of those spells would have to involve raising the dead or interacting with the dead.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Ahem. I have a build where by level nine I could have over fifty undead.
Necromancy subclass
Get to level six and you can have the spell for free to get some dead mineons. but also instead of raising only one undead you can raise two. then you simply need metamagic to twinspell it and summon four undead with only a single spell. then you also put some points into warlock so you can start converting pact stuff into spell slots to boost the amount you can have up at one time. simply take every single option that allows you to refuel and pump up how many things your spells affect. if you want to have ghouls or anything like that simply talk with the DM because it's not hard to simply say yes and or homebrew how it's summoned and what the pros and cons are. in my opinion a necromancer should be something of an opportunist and a medic because they ultimately have more knowledge of death than anyone and can help out whenever someone is hurt or dying from something. they aren't evil or aweful by nature it's simply just using opportunity to an advantage as if your body guards were killed from bandits then I would defenately want to go back and get some guards but that risks attack. a necromancer may not enjoy doing it but they can raise the fallen to escort themselves to a town of sorts so they can be laid to rest and the necromancer can restock. just because the magic is dark doesn't mean you need to play some insane corrupted character. at most I think a necromancer would be awkward but generally good natured because they have spent a long while alone.
Point is. you can try coffee lock necromancer but any and all necromancers shouldn't be played like a bunch of raving lunatics but rather a kinder soul that would much rather give the dead a proper burial than go around desecrating graveyards.