Hey, just a couple points from the new subclasses (apologies for the double post - as this is the rules forum, I figured I shouldn't just leave it on the class compendium)
Echo Knight
Level 3 - Manifest Echo
Summoning the Echo needs you to see an unnocupied space. Moving the echo, however doesn't seem to have this restriction.
Moving the echo states that is in any direction does this include vertical space?
The echo is described as an image of yourself - is it affected by gravity? can it go through walls?
Can an echo block the enemies' path?
Does an attack from the echo use your own ammunition? Say, a javelin or your arrows? or is it a projection of the weapon?
The only restriction for ranged attacks comes on Unleash Incarnation - does specify melee.
When determining ranged attacks - how does range calculation work? (keep in mind you still see through your own senses)
For example: I'm a fighter equipped with a Hand Crossbow and my echo is 30 feet away from me, an enemy is 90 feet away (60 feet away from the echo). On my turn I use a bonus action to close the distance between my Echo and the Enemy and use the Attack action (now in range for the Hand Crossbow). If the attack originates from the Echo's space, the Enemy would be within the short range of the Echo - but I, the fighter am way out in the long range (since I still use my own senses, what's the ruling for the attack). At the end of my turn the Echo would be destroyed.
On the same line, if the attack uses the Echo's position as an origin, could I attack something that I can't see? - but its within the echo's regular range? (for example: I see the enemy within 5 feet of the Echo, I'm retreating so I move behind a wall, as I retreat I make a melee attack against the enemy using the Echo. Would it be made with disadvantage since it would be an "Unseen Target"?
Level 7 - Echo Avatar + Level 10 Shadow Martyr:
Some sillinesshere - Shadow Martyr's restriction is an attack directed to another creature you can see (no range specified) - How far can you see? if you're using the Echo Avatar and see someone being attacked within 1000ft of you (perhaps even more as per Manifest Echo - says it's destroyed at the end of your turn) you could potentially use your reaction to send your echo Far Far Away to protect someone. If it survives this attack you in your turn could swap positions with the echo and at the end of the turn it would be then destroyed.
Graviturgy Magic
Level 2 - Adjust Density
This ability doesn't seem to have a save associated with it - it just happens as an action (Which in my opinion is very very strong since it can affect anyone's Strength saving throws).
The weight modifications don't seem to specify if it's current or base.
The same goes for the jump distance.
There's no limit to how many times this feature can be used per day.
Does it stack? If we have a party of 3 Graviturgy Wizards and all do Adjust Density - Enlarge, do all the effects apply separately or are the 2 later casts redundant (just as insurance in case wizard 1 loses concentration)?
The creature's weight would be 2x or 6x or 8x?
The movement penalty would be -10 or -30, bringing most creatures to an absolute stop which they can't do anything about (no saves)
Chronourgy Magic
Level 2 - Chronal Shift
(not a question - opinion) It does specify that it can be used afterthe outcome is decided - which puts this ability on a higher power level when compared to other similar abilities (ie Lore Bard's Cutting Words, Divination Wizard's Portent)
Hey, just a couple points from the new subclasses (apologies for the double post - as this is the rules forum, I figured I shouldn't just leave it on the class compendium)
Echo Knight
Level 3 - Manifest Echo
Summoning the Echo needs you to see an unnocupied space. Moving the echo, however doesn't seem to have this restriction.
The description says "it occupies its space," so it follows the normal rules regarding occupying a creature's space, i.e. it can't unless the other creature is (I think?) two size categories larger than it.
Moving the echo states that is in any direction does this include vertical space?
I would say yes.
The echo is described as an image of yourself - is it affected by gravity? can it go through walls?
If it were affected by gravity, you wouldn't be able to move it vertically, and I just said I would rule that you can move it vertically, so I am forced to say no. Can it go through walls? I think it's stretching the meaning of "occupies its space" to say no, but it's a reasonable answer. Could go either way.
Can an echo block the enemies' path?
Again, it occupies its space, so yes.
Does an attack from the echo use your own ammunition? Say, a javelin or your arrows? or is it a projection of the weapon?
There is no "attack from the echo." You always make the attacks; the echo just lets you make those attacks as if you were in its space. Your attacks still consume ammunition.
The only restriction for ranged attacks comes on Unleash Incarnation - does specify melee.
When determining ranged attacks - how does range calculation work? (keep in mind you still see through your own senses)
For example: I'm a fighter equipped with a Hand Crossbow and my echo is 30 feet away from me, an enemy is 90 feet away (60 feet away from the echo). On my turn I use a bonus action to close the distance between my Echo and the Enemy and use the Attack action (now in range for the Hand Crossbow). If the attack originates from the Echo's space, the Enemy would be within the short range of the Echo - but I, the fighter am way out in the long range (since I still use my own senses, what's the ruling for the attack). At the end of my turn the Echo would be destroyed.
On the same line, if the attack uses the Echo's position as an origin, could I attack something that I can't see? - but its within the echo's regular range? (for example: I see the enemy within 5 feet of the Echo, I'm retreating so I move behind a wall, as I retreat I make a melee attack against the enemy using the Echo. Would it be made with disadvantage since it would be an "Unseen Target"?
Range is from the origin of the attack, so the echo's space if that's where you're making the attack from. Targeting follows normal targeting rules, so if you can't see a creature (because it's heavily obscured by the wall you're hiding behind), your attack is at disadvantage.
Level 7 - Echo Avatar + Level 10 Shadow Martyr:
Some sillinesshere - Shadow Martyr's restriction is an attack directed to another creature you can see (no range specified) - How far can you see? if you're using the Echo Avatar and see someone being attacked within 1000ft of you (perhaps even more as per Manifest Echo - says it's destroyed at the end of your turn) you could potentially use your reaction to send your echo Far Far Away to protect someone. If it survives this attack you in your turn could swap positions with the echo and at the end of the turn it would be then destroyed.
How far you can see is up to the DM. Most people would not be able to tell that someone was being attacked from 1000 feet away.
Graviturgy Magic
Level 2 - Adjust Density
This ability doesn't seem to have a save associated with it - it just happens as an action (Which in my opinion is very very strong since it can affect anyone's Strength saving throws).
The weight modifications don't seem to specify if it's current or base.
Weight means how much it weighs, not how much it would weigh under conditions that don't currently apply.
The same goes for the jump distance.
In contrast, the same does not go for jump distance: "it can jump twice as far as normal" would suggest "base," though I think that's splitting hairs unnecessarily. I would rule that it's just double whatever it currently is, not what it "normally" is.
There's no limit to how many times this feature can be used per day.
Does it stack? If we have a party of 3 Graviturgy Wizards and all do Adjust Density - Enlarge, do all the effects apply separately or are the 2 later casts redundant (just as insurance in case wizard 1 loses concentration)?
The creature's weight would be 2x or 6x or 8x?
The movement penalty would be -10 or -30, bringing most creatures to an absolute stop which they can't do anything about (no saves)
Effects with the same name do not stack, as a general rule.
Chronourgy Magic
Level 2 - Chronal Shift
(not a question - opinion) It does specify that it can be used afterthe outcome is decided - which puts this ability on a higher power level when compared to other similar abilities (ie Lore Bard's Cutting Words, Divination Wizard's Portent)
I think I answered all your questions? As mentioned, in places it's really up to the DM's discretion, and in some cases it's not entirely clear what the RAW is ("it occupies its space" is doing a lot of work in the echo knight's feature descriptions).
Thanks for your insight :D - yes, agreed it's up to the DM, but if anything can take the pressure off the DM by reducing ambiguity and helping make a ruling would help a lot
Most people would not be able to tell that someone was being attacked from 1000 feet away.
Maybe my wording failed at the "1000 ft. from you" part, meant it more as:
By using Echo Avatar you can see from your Echo (and)
You can move your Echo up to 1000 ft away from you.
So by seeing through your Echo's eyes -who could be up to 1000ft away from you- you could potentially Shadow Martyr + Teleport on your next turn fairly far away
EDIT: Just realised something about reactions:
PHB - Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn (...)
and
Shadow Martyr
You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo.
Using Echo Avatar you use your action to attack a creature who's far away (assuming the echo is within normal range of the target), that attack is directed at another creature and you can see it (as you see through your echo) so you could use your reaction to teleport the echo to the target's "rescue"? Then the echo would be the target of it's own attack.
For mechanical purposes, the Fighter has a longbow, moves the echo 1000 ft away, then, on the turn: targets any creature at max range they can see - would make the attack with disadvantage, uses their reaction to use Shadow Martyr. now the Echo is at 1600 ft from the fighter (provided it didn't destroy itself with the attack). Fighter uses a bonus action to swap places with the echo, ends Echo Avatar and can continue moving. Ends turn - echo is destroyed.
Of course it would be decided after a ruling and some dice but RAW would present itself for something like that
You don't need Shadow Martyr to teleport to your echo. You can just do that. And yes, if you're using Echo Avatar that can be 1000 feet of teleportation. Your echo can still only move 30 feet per turn, though, so in terms of actual time elapsed, it's faster to just move yourself, since you can dash and get 60 feet per turn.
What Shadow Martyr does is let you instantly teleport your echo to defend someone you can see, which goes back to my original comment that you probably can't see someone being attacked from 1000 feet away. If you're using Echo Avatar to see through your echo, which is 1000 feet away, then totally. But you still had to move your echo 1000 feet at a rate of 30 feet per turn to get to that point.
Again, there aren't any explicit rules about how far characters can make out what's going on by sight. My personal ruling, based on years of marching band, would put the maximum limit at which you can distinguish meaningful detail at the length of a football field, or 300 feet.
You don't need Shadow Martyr to teleport to your echo. You can just do that.
Yes, I know, sorry if it seems I'm arguing this - just saying how silly the interaction between the features could be. Could be a 2-turn >=600-foot move
And yes, if you're using Echo Avatar that can be 1000 feet of teleportation. Your echo can still only move 30 feet per turn, though, so in terms of actual time elapsed, it's faster to just move yourself, since you can dash and get 60 feet per turn.
What Shadow Martyr does is let you instantly teleport your echo to defend someone you can see, which goes back to my original comment that you probably can't see someone being attacked from 1000 feet away. If you're using Echo Avatar to see through your echo, which is 1000 feet away, then totally. But you still had to move your echo 1000 feet at a rate of 30 feet per turn to get to that point.
Yes it totally would be faster, using the Echo for movement is not necessarily a practical application - just a silly thought. Also dashing 1000 feet would be fairly exhausting:
DMG - Chases
Dashing
During the chase, a participant can freely use the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 + its Constitution modifier. Each additional Dash action it takes during the chase requires the creature to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution check at the end of its turn or gain one level of exhaustion.
Even with a +5 Constitution would let you move 480 feet before starting to be at risk of getting exhausted.
Anyways - could be an occasion where you can't or don't want to move. Maybe you're in some kind of house arrest (where they haven't taken your weapons) or Maybe you're carrying an assassination attempt, easier to sneak an echo than a full party. speak to your party (who are standing by) when you're about to shoot, they get inside bags of holding on your person and do the longbow move from my previous post.
Again, there aren't any explicit rules about how far characters can make out what's going on by sight. My personal ruling, based on years of marching band, would put the maximum limit at which you can distinguish meaningful detail at the length of a football field, or 300 feet.
That's a fair call - on our games we go with the biggest weapon range we can find - 600 ft for the longbow (unless we've missed something)
The rule is "spells of the same name don't stack", there isn't a rule about other magical abilities not classified as spells iirc.
(Also, Jump Distance costs movement, you don't get free movement from jumping, so your barbarian cannot jump 10,000 feet in a round, no matter how many times you stack the Graviturgy ability)
There are some weirdly worded Echo Knight abilities that combine in strange ways. You can attack while being 1000 feet away from your real form, even with melee attacks. Also, vertical movement is included, so your echo can fly 1,000 feet up, attack for you, as soon as it is the end of your turn and you don't want the echo to disappear, you teleport there, and summon it back as a bonus action.
This quirkiness will probably be fixed in future versions of the book, but in the current official version, it will be a while until those changes are made, so take advantage of them as much as you can until then.
Also, the Chronurgy magic is very very powerful compared to Portent. Sure, you don't know what the rolls are before you use it, but you can use it after the attack, save, or check succeeds or fails.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
There are some weirdly worded Echo Knight abilities that combine in strange ways. You can attack while being 1000 feet away from your real form, even with melee attacks. Also, vertical movement is included, so your echo can fly 1,000 feet up, attack for you, as soon as it is the end of your turn and you don't want the echo to disappear, you teleport there, and summon it back as a bonus action.
As cool as that is both summoning an echo and swapping places do use a bonus action.
There are some weirdly worded Echo Knight abilities that combine in strange ways. You can attack while being 1000 feet away from your real form, even with melee attacks. Also, vertical movement is included, so your echo can fly 1,000 feet up, attack for you, as soon as it is the end of your turn and you don't want the echo to disappear, you teleport there, and summon it back as a bonus action.
As cool as that is both summoning an echo and swapping places do use a bonus action.
Okay, don't summon the echo, then. You can wait until next turn to do that.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I’ve got a question on swapping places with the echo clone. For sake of the question let’s assume that the clone can use skills and interact with the world. I believe I read that was Mercer’s intention. Taking this into account, how does holding objects work when swapping places? Does the object stay or travel? Does it depend on the size and or weight of the object, or if you can lift it? I suppose this is more of a question on how teleporting works in general but this scenario came up in my most recent session. Trying to escape a sinking ship with a heavy chest. Thank you in advance for any input.
I’ve got a question on swapping places with the echo clone. For sake of the question let’s assume that the clone can use skills and interact with the world. I believe I read that was Mercer’s intention. Taking this into account, how does holding objects work when swapping places? Does the object stay or travel? Does it depend on the size and or weight of the object, or if you can lift it? I suppose this is more of a question on how teleporting works in general but this scenario came up in my most recent session. Trying to escape a sinking ship with a heavy chest. Thank you in advance for any input.
The easiest way to answer this is to realise that a weapon is a held object - and you would not rule that the Teleport disarms the player if they use it. So if they are holding another object - certainly it goes with them.
The rule is "spells of the same name don't stack", there isn't a rule about other magical abilities not classified as spells iirc.
This is a few days late, because I couldn't find the rule at the time, and it felt really weird to say "there is definitely a general rule" without being able to point to it, but then I came across it in passing while looking for something entirely different, and I think it's a pretty important point to make, so... yes, there is definitely a general rule! (n.b. that link goes to "chases" because it's the closest linkable location; the rule in question is right above)
I’ve got a question on swapping places with the echo clone. For sake of the question let’s assume that the clone can use skills and interact with the world. I believe I read that was Mercer’s intention. Taking this into account, how does holding objects work when swapping places? Does the object stay or travel? Does it depend on the size and or weight of the object, or if you can lift it? I suppose this is more of a question on how teleporting works in general but this scenario came up in my most recent session. Trying to escape a sinking ship with a heavy chest. Thank you in advance for any input.
First of all, I reject the premise. The class feature spells out exactly in what ways you can use the echo, and using skills and interacting with the world are not listed among those ways. But for the sake of the question let's assume that the feature has an additional bullet point that says you can use the echo to use skills and interact with the world. As Emmber, held objects go with you when you teleport.
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Hey, just a couple points from the new subclasses (apologies for the double post - as this is the rules forum, I figured I shouldn't just leave it on the class compendium)
Echo Knight
Level 3 - Manifest Echo
Level 7 - Echo Avatar + Level 10 Shadow Martyr:
Some silliness here - Shadow Martyr's restriction is an attack directed to another creature you can see (no range specified) - How far can you see? if you're using the Echo Avatar and see someone being attacked within 1000ft of you (perhaps even more as per Manifest Echo - says it's destroyed at the end of your turn) you could potentially use your reaction to send your echo Far Far Away to protect someone. If it survives this attack you in your turn could swap positions with the echo and at the end of the turn it would be then destroyed.
Graviturgy Magic
Level 2 - Adjust Density
Does it stack? If we have a party of 3 Graviturgy Wizards and all do Adjust Density - Enlarge, do all the effects apply separately or are the 2 later casts redundant (just as insurance in case wizard 1 loses concentration)?
Chronourgy Magic
Level 2 - Chronal Shift
(not a question - opinion) It does specify that it can be used after the outcome is decided - which puts this ability on a higher power level when compared to other similar abilities (ie Lore Bard's Cutting Words, Divination Wizard's Portent)
The description says "it occupies its space," so it follows the normal rules regarding occupying a creature's space, i.e. it can't unless the other creature is (I think?) two size categories larger than it.
I would say yes.
If it were affected by gravity, you wouldn't be able to move it vertically, and I just said I would rule that you can move it vertically, so I am forced to say no. Can it go through walls? I think it's stretching the meaning of "occupies its space" to say no, but it's a reasonable answer. Could go either way.
Again, it occupies its space, so yes.
There is no "attack from the echo." You always make the attacks; the echo just lets you make those attacks as if you were in its space. Your attacks still consume ammunition.
Range is from the origin of the attack, so the echo's space if that's where you're making the attack from. Targeting follows normal targeting rules, so if you can't see a creature (because it's heavily obscured by the wall you're hiding behind), your attack is at disadvantage.
How far you can see is up to the DM. Most people would not be able to tell that someone was being attacked from 1000 feet away.
Weight means how much it weighs, not how much it would weigh under conditions that don't currently apply.
In contrast, the same does not go for jump distance: "it can jump twice as far as normal" would suggest "base," though I think that's splitting hairs unnecessarily. I would rule that it's just double whatever it currently is, not what it "normally" is.
Effects with the same name do not stack, as a general rule.
I think I answered all your questions? As mentioned, in places it's really up to the DM's discretion, and in some cases it's not entirely clear what the RAW is ("it occupies its space" is doing a lot of work in the echo knight's feature descriptions).
Thanks for your insight :D - yes, agreed it's up to the DM, but if anything can take the pressure off the DM by reducing ambiguity and helping make a ruling would help a lot
Maybe my wording failed at the "1000 ft. from you" part, meant it more as:
So by seeing through your Echo's eyes -who could be up to 1000ft away from you- you could potentially Shadow Martyr + Teleport on your next turn fairly far away
EDIT: Just realised something about reactions:
and
Using Echo Avatar you use your action to attack a creature who's far away (assuming the echo is within normal range of the target), that attack is directed at another creature and you can see it (as you see through your echo) so you could use your reaction to teleport the echo to the target's "rescue"? Then the echo would be the target of it's own attack.
For mechanical purposes, the Fighter has a longbow, moves the echo 1000 ft away, then, on the turn: targets any creature at max range they can see - would make the attack with disadvantage, uses their reaction to use Shadow Martyr. now the Echo is at 1600 ft from the fighter (provided it didn't destroy itself with the attack). Fighter uses a bonus action to swap places with the echo, ends Echo Avatar and can continue moving. Ends turn - echo is destroyed.
Of course it would be decided after a ruling and some dice but RAW would present itself for something like that
(Again this is a bit of a silly one)
You don't need Shadow Martyr to teleport to your echo. You can just do that. And yes, if you're using Echo Avatar that can be 1000 feet of teleportation. Your echo can still only move 30 feet per turn, though, so in terms of actual time elapsed, it's faster to just move yourself, since you can dash and get 60 feet per turn.
What Shadow Martyr does is let you instantly teleport your echo to defend someone you can see, which goes back to my original comment that you probably can't see someone being attacked from 1000 feet away. If you're using Echo Avatar to see through your echo, which is 1000 feet away, then totally. But you still had to move your echo 1000 feet at a rate of 30 feet per turn to get to that point.
Again, there aren't any explicit rules about how far characters can make out what's going on by sight. My personal ruling, based on years of marching band, would put the maximum limit at which you can distinguish meaningful detail at the length of a football field, or 300 feet.
Yes, I know, sorry if it seems I'm arguing this - just saying how silly the interaction between the features could be. Could be a 2-turn >=600-foot move
Yes it totally would be faster, using the Echo for movement is not necessarily a practical application - just a silly thought. Also dashing 1000 feet would be fairly exhausting:
Even with a +5 Constitution would let you move 480 feet before starting to be at risk of getting exhausted.
Anyways - could be an occasion where you can't or don't want to move. Maybe you're in some kind of house arrest (where they haven't taken your weapons) or Maybe you're carrying an assassination attempt, easier to sneak an echo than a full party. speak to your party (who are standing by) when you're about to shoot, they get inside bags of holding on your person and do the longbow move from my previous post.
That's a fair call - on our games we go with the biggest weapon range we can find - 600 ft for the longbow (unless we've missed something)
The rule is "spells of the same name don't stack", there isn't a rule about other magical abilities not classified as spells iirc.
(Also, Jump Distance costs movement, you don't get free movement from jumping, so your barbarian cannot jump 10,000 feet in a round, no matter how many times you stack the Graviturgy ability)
There are some weirdly worded Echo Knight abilities that combine in strange ways. You can attack while being 1000 feet away from your real form, even with melee attacks. Also, vertical movement is included, so your echo can fly 1,000 feet up, attack for you, as soon as it is the end of your turn and you don't want the echo to disappear, you teleport there, and summon it back as a bonus action.
This quirkiness will probably be fixed in future versions of the book, but in the current official version, it will be a while until those changes are made, so take advantage of them as much as you can until then.
Also, the Chronurgy magic is very very powerful compared to Portent. Sure, you don't know what the rolls are before you use it, but you can use it after the attack, save, or check succeeds or fails.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As cool as that is both summoning an echo and swapping places do use a bonus action.
Okay, don't summon the echo, then. You can wait until next turn to do that.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I’ve got a question on swapping places with the echo clone. For sake of the question let’s assume that the clone can use skills and interact with the world. I believe I read that was Mercer’s intention. Taking this into account, how does holding objects work when swapping places? Does the object stay or travel? Does it depend on the size and or weight of the object, or if you can lift it? I suppose this is more of a question on how teleporting works in general but this scenario came up in my most recent session. Trying to escape a sinking ship with a heavy chest. Thank you in advance for any input.
The easiest way to answer this is to realise that a weapon is a held object - and you would not rule that the Teleport disarms the player if they use it. So if they are holding another object - certainly it goes with them.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
This is a few days late, because I couldn't find the rule at the time, and it felt really weird to say "there is definitely a general rule" without being able to point to it, but then I came across it in passing while looking for something entirely different, and I think it's a pretty important point to make, so... yes, there is definitely a general rule! (n.b. that link goes to "chases" because it's the closest linkable location; the rule in question is right above)
First of all, I reject the premise. The class feature spells out exactly in what ways you can use the echo, and using skills and interacting with the world are not listed among those ways. But for the sake of the question let's assume that the feature has an additional bullet point that says you can use the echo to use skills and interact with the world. As Emmber, held objects go with you when you teleport.