It is correct that by RAW just being stunned won't stop you performing ordinary tasks by the letter of the rules. It might not make any sense, but that will always be the case taking RAW rather than RP to be important. Like if you drop an entire planet on someone from 15ft, they only take 3d6 damage. This is essentially a point that can be argued on forums and has no bearing on any game that has ever, or will ever, take place.
D&D does allow the swallowing of potions whilst unconscious, which I always put down to a magical effect of the potion. Unconscious or comatose people do not swallow reflexively. But Stunned is not Unconscious and so if someone gets Intellect Devoured then they can rest for a week and regain their ability score, using the optional XGtE rules.
I'm sticking to the condition text, as written. It doesn't prevent the afflicted PC from swallowing. Namely, because it doesn't specify that being unable to move or act prevents a PC from ingesting anything, and you are able to administer food and drink to a PC in these conditions. If you want to rule differently at your table, that's absolutely in your right to do so.
You can still take an action while grappled so you can stuff food in your mouth in tandem with it.
According to your earlier suggestion, not being able to move might prevent the hand/arm-assembly from making the trip to the mouth with the food.... move and act..
You cannot move or take action while paralyzed since you are incapacitated so you can't stuff food in your mouth in tandam with it.
Here again, move and act.
Administering a potion to someone requires an action and it can be unconscious according to an offifial ruling in Sage Advice Compendium
Can potions be administered to unconscious characters as an action? Yes, you can administer a potion to someone else as an action (DMG, 139).
And if we follow the same logic that you are presenting, the potion would simply spill out of your PC's unconscious mouth as they lack the ability to move or act. (Also, this last quote is a ruling by another DM, not RAW. Maybe something will be done differently in 2024?)
When I commented earlier that making things too granular might cause the game to break down, this is what I was suggesting. My opinion is that too miniscule a definition is being projected onto these conditions. Much like spells doing what they say they do, conditions do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel that there is a gray area that requires amendment in your game, that's where your ruling comes in. But RAW, it doesn't stipulate what you are saying it does.
Being Stunned or having an Intelligence of 0 doesn't affect the ability to swallow. And to top all of this off, waaaay back in post #31, I was responding to Sanvael's claim that a PC couldn't swallow. You jumped on the response and have sufficently backtracked your previous stance. Curious indeed.
Sadly, if you cannot drink for 1 week, you will be dead before you regain a point of intellect. I guess DM's who regret their rash choice of broken monster might allow auto-swallowing.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Depends if the DM deems performing ordinary tasks require a mimimum of intelligence or not.
While stunned you can't move, take action, bonus action or reaction, nor interacting with object around you in tandem with it. And this is with all your intelligence intact. Imagine with 0 intelligence. You're lucky to be alive, all the game features that reduces ability scores to 0 kill their target, Devour Intellect is the only exception that i know.
According to your earlier suggestion, not being able to move might prevent the hand/arm-assembly from making the trip to the mouth with the food.... move and act..
No you interact with object around you is in tandem with action and move, either of them, not necessarily both. So while grappled for exemple, you can draw a weapon and attack with it, even if your speed is 0 and don't move. But if you are paralyzed or stunned and incapacitated, you can't move or take action, so you can't interact with object around you in tandem with your move or action.
You come back to swallow, but eating and drinking is more than swallow if you're alone, it involve getting the food or drink and stuffing it in your mouth as well. A lone creature with a Devour Intellect and nobody to assist him or her would not qualify for Relaxation rule, as it must maintain at least a modest lifestyle, in a clean space and not hungry or thirsty. Intellect Devourer rarely attack a lone character in it's house or inn's bed with a week worth of food/drink in hand! ☺
Depends if the DM deems performing ordinary tasks require a mimimum of intelligence or not.
Agreed. This requirement on the DM to provide a ruling is because of the lack of RAW. Substituting an opinion as RAW is what I'm objecting to. Furthermore my initial objection didn't involve you at all. Yet here we are.
You come back to swallow, but eating and drinking is more than swallow if you're alone, it involve getting the food or drink and stuffing it in your mouth as well. A lone creature with a Devour Intellect and nobody to assist him or her would not qualify for Relaxation rule, as it must maintain at least a modest lifestyle, in a clean space and not hungry or thirsty. Intellect Devourer rarely attack a lone character in it's house or inn's bed with a week worth of food/drink in hand! ☺
I keep coming back to being able to swallow, as this was my original objection before we entered into the granular discussion that has transpired. Which there are no rules for what disables that ability, so it will come down to DM adjudication as well. You can try to point to movement and action, or stunned, or whatever other attempt to mental judo swallowing-into-action that you want to take, but that is still the attempt to string things together that just don't cover the topic.
The rules of this game are intentionally written to be vague so as to allow a DM to adjudicate them to fit the situation at hand. Those adjudications are not the final answer for every player of this game, as every game is different and should be allowed to be adjudicated as such. I don't agree that any one person's ruling should be touted as the answer that everyone should take, which is the basis for my disagreement on this topic.
It is correct that by RAW just being stunned won't stop you performing ordinary tasks by the letter of the rules. It might not make any sense, but that will always be the case taking RAW rather than RP to be important. Like if you drop an entire planet on someone from 15ft, they only take 3d6 damage. This is essentially a point that can be argued on forums and has no bearing on any game that has ever, or will ever, take place.
D&D does allow the swallowing of potions whilst unconscious, which I always put down to a magical effect of the potion. Unconscious or comatose people do not swallow reflexively. But Stunned is not Unconscious and so if someone gets Intellect Devoured then they can rest for a week and regain their ability score, using the optional XGtE rules.
Thanks Sanvael. I hope everyone has a great day!
Notes: Be civil in your interactions and do not make personal attacks
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Hi I used intellect devourer in my game Dragon heist campaign for lvl 1 characters. My players were lvl 3 and there were three of them. They went against Intellect devourer threw a small corridor into a room. Barbarian was the first to enter the room and immediately got his intelligence devoured. My question is how many times can intellect devourer do that intellect devour ability? Didn't want to kill the party, so used it once more against low constitution bard and it failed. After that the intellect devourer attacked their bard 3 times every time knocking them out until their druid who helped them up was left with no spells. Eventually druid killed the Intellect devourer. So yes to asked the question again how many times can devourer do intellect devourer ability?
Hi I used intellect devourer in my game Dragon heist campaign for lvl 1 characters. My players were lvl 3 and there were three of them. They went against Intellect devourer threw a small corridor into a room. Barbarian was the first to enter the room and immediately got his intelligence devoured. My question is how many times can intellect devourer do that intellect devour ability?
If an ability does not specify a limit or a recharge, it's unlimited.
Thanks for the quick reply. Thought so do, but started to wonder since this campaign is intended for 4-6 players with lvl 1. And my 3 players had big difficulties with it when they were lvl 3.
Thanks for the quick reply. Thought so do, but started to wonder since this campaign is intended for 4-6 players with lvl 1. And my 3 players had big difficulties with it when they were lvl 3.
Intellect Devourer is one of the most under-rated monsters against many parties. It can easily turn into a TPK if played optimally. However, it has only 21 hit points and an AC of 12. A single casting of scorching ray could kill it. A party with a magic weapon or one with enough attacks/spells could kill it in one if not two combat rounds. It has the possibility to be an anti-climactic cakewalk or a TPK just depending on the dice rolls and tactics used.
In your case, after the ID had successfully reduced the barbarian to zero int, it could have used its Body Thief ability and taken over the body and abilities of the barbarian (killing the barbarian in the process) and then attacked the rest of the party. If the party managed to kill the body of the barbarian or otherwise force the ID out, the barbarian would still be dead and the party would be more damaged than previously and the ID could repeat the intelligence attack against another creature. On the other hand, if the barbarian passes the first int save, then the ID is unlikely to live for two more rounds.
I don't think you're unable to swallow, blink or breathe while afflicted this way as these biological aspect are usually automatic.
But eating and drinking is not automatic, it requires the ability to act or move, which you don't have when incapacitated or unconscious.
Interacting with Objects Around You: Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
• stuff some food into your mouth
• drink all the ale in a flagon
A couple of quick comments that don't seem to have been mentioned previously in the thread.
1) I would agree that a creature with 0 int left on their own will eventually die due to lack of food and water. They may be capable of swallowing but they are incapable of finding their own food or water.
2) In terms of what a 0 int creature can do - consider the young or newborns of almost any species. They have 0 int. No memory, no knowledge, no ability to reason. However, they can all swallow. Swallowing is independent of intelligence.
In the case of the effect of the ID, the affected creature is not unconscious.
"The target is stunned until it regains at least one point of Intelligence."
"A stunned creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can't move, and can speak only falteringly."
"An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions."
A creature that is only "incapacitated" is still capable of using their full movement. The only constraint is that they can't take actions or reactions. Incapacitated in D&D 5e does not have the same meaning as it might usually.
A stunned creature can speak falteringly. This means that they are capable of moving - they just can't move in the game sense. A creature that is capable of speaking is likely also capable of swallowing.
RAW then, I don't see any issue with a stunned creature with 0 intelligence being able to swallow liquids that were fed to it. They would be unable to find their own though.
---
In terms of swallowing a potion while unconsious, this is specifically allowed by the sage advice compendium clarifications, presumably because potions are typically magical.
"Can potions be administered to unconscious characters as an action?
Yes, you can administer a potion to someone else as an action (DMG, "Potions")."
"An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions."
A creature that is only "incapacitated" is still capable of using their full movement. The only constraint is that they can't take actions or reactions. Incapacitated in D&D 5e does not have the same meaning as it might usually.
Excellent post by David42 there! I actually find this point about the incapacitated condition to be particularly hilarious and I'm betting this is probably pretty surprising to most players who do not already have it memorized. It definitely seems pretty counterintuitive based on what we usually associate with the word. So much so that I think the game would be improved if either the effect or the name of this condition were changed in future versions.
Excellent post by David42 there! I actually find this point about the incapacitated condition to be particularly hilarious and I'm betting this is probably pretty surprising to most players who do not already have it memorized. It definitely seems pretty counterintuitive based on what we usually associate with the word. So much so that I think the game would be improved if either the effect or the name of this condition were changed in future versions.
The effect needs to stay because without it quite a lot of the other conditions and rules fall apart because they refer to it. But sure a name change could be OK though I'm not sure it really is needed.
I have thought about how incapacitated shouldn't be a condition at all but rather have it be a separate rule. But 5E doesn't really use keyword/traits in that way so I'm not sure if the designers would know how to fit it in.
Slightly related, but do warforged even have brains that can be devoured?
This is very questionable, as the brain of the Warforged would be mechanical and therefore completely unappetizing to a creature bred by Mind Flayers to eat the brains of creatures with flesh and blood.
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lol what did I start here xD
It is correct that by RAW just being stunned won't stop you performing ordinary tasks by the letter of the rules. It might not make any sense, but that will always be the case taking RAW rather than RP to be important. Like if you drop an entire planet on someone from 15ft, they only take 3d6 damage. This is essentially a point that can be argued on forums and has no bearing on any game that has ever, or will ever, take place.
D&D does allow the swallowing of potions whilst unconscious, which I always put down to a magical effect of the potion. Unconscious or comatose people do not swallow reflexively. But Stunned is not Unconscious and so if someone gets Intellect Devoured then they can rest for a week and regain their ability score, using the optional XGtE rules.
According to your earlier suggestion, not being able to move might prevent the hand/arm-assembly from making the trip to the mouth with the food.... move and act..
Here again, move and act.
And if we follow the same logic that you are presenting, the potion would simply spill out of your PC's unconscious mouth as they lack the ability to move or act. (Also, this last quote is a ruling by another DM, not RAW. Maybe something will be done differently in 2024?)
When I commented earlier that making things too granular might cause the game to break down, this is what I was suggesting. My opinion is that too miniscule a definition is being projected onto these conditions. Much like spells doing what they say they do, conditions do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel that there is a gray area that requires amendment in your game, that's where your ruling comes in. But RAW, it doesn't stipulate what you are saying it does.
Being Stunned or having an Intelligence of 0 doesn't affect the ability to swallow. And to top all of this off, waaaay back in post #31, I was responding to Sanvael's claim that a PC couldn't swallow. You jumped on the response and have sufficently backtracked your previous stance. Curious indeed.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Depends if the DM deems performing ordinary tasks require a mimimum of intelligence or not.
While stunned you can't move, take action, bonus action or reaction, nor interacting with object around you in tandem with it. And this is with all your intelligence intact. Imagine with 0 intelligence. You're lucky to be alive, all the game features that reduces ability scores to 0 kill their target, Devour Intellect is the only exception that i know.
Agreed. This requirement on the DM to provide a ruling is because of the lack of RAW. Substituting an opinion as RAW is what I'm objecting to. Furthermore my initial objection didn't involve you at all. Yet here we are.
I keep coming back to being able to swallow, as this was my original objection before we entered into the granular discussion that has transpired. Which there are no rules for what disables that ability, so it will come down to DM adjudication as well. You can try to point to movement and action, or stunned, or whatever other attempt to mental judo swallowing-into-action that you want to take, but that is still the attempt to string things together that just don't cover the topic.
The rules of this game are intentionally written to be vague so as to allow a DM to adjudicate them to fit the situation at hand. Those adjudications are not the final answer for every player of this game, as every game is different and should be allowed to be adjudicated as such. I don't agree that any one person's ruling should be touted as the answer that everyone should take, which is the basis for my disagreement on this topic.
[REDACTED]
Thanks Sanvael. I hope everyone has a great day!
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Hi I used intellect devourer in my game Dragon heist campaign for lvl 1 characters. My players were lvl 3 and there were three of them. They went against Intellect devourer threw a small corridor into a room. Barbarian was the first to enter the room and immediately got his intelligence devoured. My question is how many times can intellect devourer do that intellect devour ability? Didn't want to kill the party, so used it once more against low constitution bard and it failed. After that the intellect devourer attacked their bard 3 times every time knocking them out until their druid who helped them up was left with no spells. Eventually druid killed the Intellect devourer. So yes to asked the question again how many times can devourer do intellect devourer ability?
If an ability does not specify a limit or a recharge, it's unlimited.
Thanks for the quick reply. Thought so do, but started to wonder since this campaign is intended for 4-6 players with lvl 1. And my 3 players had big difficulties with it when they were lvl 3.
Intellect Devourer is one of the most under-rated monsters against many parties. It can easily turn into a TPK if played optimally. However, it has only 21 hit points and an AC of 12. A single casting of scorching ray could kill it. A party with a magic weapon or one with enough attacks/spells could kill it in one if not two combat rounds. It has the possibility to be an anti-climactic cakewalk or a TPK just depending on the dice rolls and tactics used.
In your case, after the ID had successfully reduced the barbarian to zero int, it could have used its Body Thief ability and taken over the body and abilities of the barbarian (killing the barbarian in the process) and then attacked the rest of the party. If the party managed to kill the body of the barbarian or otherwise force the ID out, the barbarian would still be dead and the party would be more damaged than previously and the ID could repeat the intelligence attack against another creature. On the other hand, if the barbarian passes the first int save, then the ID is unlikely to live for two more rounds.
A couple of quick comments that don't seem to have been mentioned previously in the thread.
1) I would agree that a creature with 0 int left on their own will eventually die due to lack of food and water. They may be capable of swallowing but they are incapable of finding their own food or water.
2) In terms of what a 0 int creature can do - consider the young or newborns of almost any species. They have 0 int. No memory, no knowledge, no ability to reason. However, they can all swallow. Swallowing is independent of intelligence.
In the case of the effect of the ID, the affected creature is not unconscious.
"The target is stunned until it regains at least one point of Intelligence."
"A stunned creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can't move, and can speak only falteringly."
"An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions."
A creature that is only "incapacitated" is still capable of using their full movement. The only constraint is that they can't take actions or reactions. Incapacitated in D&D 5e does not have the same meaning as it might usually.
A stunned creature can speak falteringly. This means that they are capable of moving - they just can't move in the game sense. A creature that is capable of speaking is likely also capable of swallowing.
RAW then, I don't see any issue with a stunned creature with 0 intelligence being able to swallow liquids that were fed to it. They would be unable to find their own though.
---
In terms of swallowing a potion while unconsious, this is specifically allowed by the sage advice compendium clarifications, presumably because potions are typically magical.
"Can potions be administered to unconscious characters as an action?
Yes, you can administer a potion to someone else as an action (DMG, "Potions")."
Excellent post by David42 there! I actually find this point about the incapacitated condition to be particularly hilarious and I'm betting this is probably pretty surprising to most players who do not already have it memorized. It definitely seems pretty counterintuitive based on what we usually associate with the word. So much so that I think the game would be improved if either the effect or the name of this condition were changed in future versions.
The effect needs to stay because without it quite a lot of the other conditions and rules fall apart because they refer to it. But sure a name change could be OK though I'm not sure it really is needed.
I have thought about how incapacitated shouldn't be a condition at all but rather have it be a separate rule. But 5E doesn't really use keyword/traits in that way so I'm not sure if the designers would know how to fit it in.
This is very questionable, as the brain of the Warforged would be mechanical and therefore completely unappetizing to a creature bred by Mind Flayers to eat the brains of creatures with flesh and blood.