Been slowly rereading ALL of the Players Handbook (thanks to the pandemic), and came across a couple of passages that seem...odd. Both are from the Movement and Positionsection of Chapter 9, Combat:
Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.
And just a few lines later, we read this:
A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide.
So if I'm reading this correctly, that means a Medium creature (say, a half-orc fighter) can't end its turn within 5 feet (its effective reach for combat) of a creature of size Large, Huge, or Gargantuan. (One exception could be if the half-orc fighter is wielding a weapon with a 10 foot reach, such as a glaive. And even then, that would only allow for an exception for Large creatures, not Huge or Gargantuan ones.)
Furthermore, it would mean that creatures sized Large, Huge, or Gargantuan can't engage in melee combat with the Medium creature unless the reach of its attack exceeds the space it controls, since the rules state you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
The only exception I can think of is if a creature moves past another creature during its turn - effectively splitting its movement, moving X feet, attacking, and then moving Y feet (remainder of its movement) to ensure it doesn't end its turn in another creature's space.
Of course, it doesn't work with this way - just a few more lines down, the text says this:
If four Large creatures crowd around a Medium or smaller one, there's little room for anyone else. In contrast, as many as twenty Medium creatures can surround a Gargantuan one.
But that seems to contradict the first rule: you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
So what do we do with this set of rules that seem, when read closely, to contradict each other?
A medium or small creature controls a five foot square. It typically has a 5 foot reach that would extend into the next square. The example is that in combat, most fighters aren't 3 inches apart. They have some distance between them. Reach is the reach extending from a creature's controlled space.
A large creature controls a 10 foot square. If it has five feet of reach, the five feet is outside of that square.
You can't end in the enemy's five foot square, but you can stand next to it and reach in to hit it.
A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide.
And the space that a Gargantuan creature controls is 20 feet by 20 feet, at a minimum. The text does not say that reach is the space that the monster controls; it's the areas described in the book in that chapter.
So if we take our half-orc fighter, plop them on a beach, and they see a dragon turtle (a Gargantuan sized creature) 45 feet away, the RAW state that the fighter can only only move 25 feet toward the dragon turtle and then must stop, since the dragon turtle controls a 20 x 20 square around itself (which is different from its reach, which is not mentioned at all in the text cited above).
To be clear: this is unworkable in the game, and clearly not applying the RAI. But it's interesting (and kinda weird) to me that a close, strict reading of the rules means that most creatures can't get close enough to actually engage melee, since the rules themselves define that the creature's space is and that you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
When it controls an area that is 20 feet by 20 feet but doesn't fill it's space, it means the turtle isn't a Minecraft 20 foot cube turtle. It doesn't mean that the turtle isn't approximately that size. Being at the edge of the 20 of space doesn't mean you are 20 feet away from the turtle. The creature is also moving about in the space. You are assumed to be lunging in and striking it not standing still and swinging your fist or sword because most people don't have five foot arms. Nothing in the rules says you can't hit it.
When it controls an area that is 20 feet by 20 feet but doesn't fill it's space, it means the turtle isn't a Minecraft 20 foot cube turtle. It doesn't mean that the turtle isn't approximately that size. Being at the edge of the 20 of space doesn't mean you are 20 feet away from the turtle. The creature is also moving about in the space. You are assumed to be lunging in and striking it not standing still and swinging your fist or sword because most people don't have five foot arms. Nothing in the rules says you can't hit it.
I get what you mean, and as I wrote, a strict interpretation of the RAW is borderline nonsensical (and unworkable). And this is a solution. I'm mostly just having fun poking at the text and reading it as it's there on the page.
I still think, as written, it could be applied/interpreted in a way that basically means no one could ever use melee attacks to hit each other...but that's clearly NOT the intention of the RAI.
You’re confusing side length with radius. A medium sized creature controls a square five feet to a side, not all the space within five feet of it. It’s a very important distinction.
Combat and movement are abstract, and while characters are assumed to be constantly moving around within their space, the rules treat them as standing in the center of their space. What this means is that two medium sized creatures in adjacent squares are five feet apart, which is conveniently the reach of most weapons.
As established, larger creatures control a larger space because they’re physically larger. Even if the physical reality is otherwise, the rules treat them as occupying every square in their space. You don’t need to target the middle of a monster (deep within their space and likely out of your reach) to hit it. Extremities are fine, which means that if you’re adjacent to its space, as far as the rules are concerned, you’re within five of it, which again is conveniently the reach of most weapons.
The bottom line is that creatures are mechanically in every square of their space, and adjacent but non-overlapping squares are five feet away from each other, satisfying both the space rule and the reach of most weapon attacks. The contradiction you’re seeing doesn’t exist.
Been slowly rereading ALL of the Players Handbook (thanks to the pandemic), and came across a couple of passages that seem...odd. Both are from the Movement and Position section of Chapter 9, Combat:
And just a few lines later, we read this:
So if I'm reading this correctly, that means a Medium creature (say, a half-orc fighter) can't end its turn within 5 feet (its effective reach for combat) of a creature of size Large, Huge, or Gargantuan. (One exception could be if the half-orc fighter is wielding a weapon with a 10 foot reach, such as a glaive. And even then, that would only allow for an exception for Large creatures, not Huge or Gargantuan ones.)
Furthermore, it would mean that creatures sized Large, Huge, or Gargantuan can't engage in melee combat with the Medium creature unless the reach of its attack exceeds the space it controls, since the rules state you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
The only exception I can think of is if a creature moves past another creature during its turn - effectively splitting its movement, moving X feet, attacking, and then moving Y feet (remainder of its movement) to ensure it doesn't end its turn in another creature's space.
Of course, it doesn't work with this way - just a few more lines down, the text says this:
But that seems to contradict the first rule: you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
So what do we do with this set of rules that seem, when read closely, to contradict each other?
A medium or small creature controls a five foot square. It typically has a 5 foot reach that would extend into the next square. The example is that in combat, most fighters aren't 3 inches apart. They have some distance between them. Reach is the reach extending from a creature's controlled space.
A large creature controls a 10 foot square. If it has five feet of reach, the five feet is outside of that square.
You can't end in the enemy's five foot square, but you can stand next to it and reach in to hit it.
But the text says this:
And the space that a Gargantuan creature controls is 20 feet by 20 feet, at a minimum. The text does not say that reach is the space that the monster controls; it's the areas described in the book in that chapter.
So if we take our half-orc fighter, plop them on a beach, and they see a dragon turtle (a Gargantuan sized creature) 45 feet away, the RAW state that the fighter can only only move 25 feet toward the dragon turtle and then must stop, since the dragon turtle controls a 20 x 20 square around itself (which is different from its reach, which is not mentioned at all in the text cited above).
To be clear: this is unworkable in the game, and clearly not applying the RAI. But it's interesting (and kinda weird) to me that a close, strict reading of the rules means that most creatures can't get close enough to actually engage melee, since the rules themselves define that the creature's space is and that you can't end your turn in another creature's space.
When it controls an area that is 20 feet by 20 feet but doesn't fill it's space, it means the turtle isn't a Minecraft 20 foot cube turtle. It doesn't mean that the turtle isn't approximately that size. Being at the edge of the 20 of space doesn't mean you are 20 feet away from the turtle. The creature is also moving about in the space. You are assumed to be lunging in and striking it not standing still and swinging your fist or sword because most people don't have five foot arms. Nothing in the rules says you can't hit it.
Reach extends out of the square of control. And if something reaches into the square of control, it can hit.
I get what you mean, and as I wrote, a strict interpretation of the RAW is borderline nonsensical (and unworkable). And this is a solution. I'm mostly just having fun poking at the text and reading it as it's there on the page.
I still think, as written, it could be applied/interpreted in a way that basically means no one could ever use melee attacks to hit each other...but that's clearly NOT the intention of the RAI.
You’re confusing side length with radius. A medium sized creature controls a square five feet to a side, not all the space within five feet of it. It’s a very important distinction.
Combat and movement are abstract, and while characters are assumed to be constantly moving around within their space, the rules treat them as standing in the center of their space. What this means is that two medium sized creatures in adjacent squares are five feet apart, which is conveniently the reach of most weapons.
As established, larger creatures control a larger space because they’re physically larger. Even if the physical reality is otherwise, the rules treat them as occupying every square in their space. You don’t need to target the middle of a monster (deep within their space and likely out of your reach) to hit it. Extremities are fine, which means that if you’re adjacent to its space, as far as the rules are concerned, you’re within five of it, which again is conveniently the reach of most weapons.
The bottom line is that creatures are mechanically in every square of their space, and adjacent but non-overlapping squares are five feet away from each other, satisfying both the space rule and the reach of most weapon attacks. The contradiction you’re seeing doesn’t exist.
Excellent response, and that does seem to handle the perceived problem, Saga. Thanks for that.