Let ME rephrase: you can only reasonably come up with one conclusion from those statements.
This whole idea of rolling a bunch of d4s and adding up all the damage then dividing it out among the targets is ludicrous.
Remember, you don't have to justify what you do as RAW. Just do whatever you want. You don't have to distort what is written to make up multiple conclusions to select the one you want to use. You just play how your group wants to play.
That's well and good, but it's important to work this out ahead of time so your spellcasting PC can make rational choices instead of finding out at cast time that a spell doesn't work as expected. If you want to roll for one missile and multiply, the spell is a lot tastier for builds like an evocation wizard, even if you have to "burn" one missile on a second target you don't care about to trigger the multiplication.
Each missile has a target. It should not matter whether whether you select another *creature* because the second and third missiles each have their own *target*.
Wolf, you are not adding the dice up nor are you disturbing that pool out. You simply pick a target for each dart, after the targets are set, you roll that many dice and add one to each die. If it is a factor of “all dice must be rolled at once” and then figuring out what die goes to what target, simply color code them: kobold 1: red die, kobold 2: green die, orc: blue die. Similar to when you have multiple d20’s for multiple attacks, matching dice for the damage. Prevents the max damage on a die that matches a miss from being confused with minimum damage roll on a hitting attack die.
Each missile has a target. It should not matter whether whether you select another *creature* because the second and third missiles each have their own *target*.
That would violate p196, which is based on the number of targets the spell has.
Wolf, you are not adding the dice up nor are you disturbing that pool out. You simply pick a target for each dart, after the targets are set, you roll that many dice and add one to each die. If it is a factor of “all dice must be rolled at once” and then figuring out what die goes to what target, simply color code them: kobold 1: red die, kobold 2: green die, orc: blue die. Similar to when you have multiple d20’s for multiple attacks, matching dice for the damage. Prevents the max damage on a die that matches a miss from being confused with minimum damage roll on a hitting attack die.
This is also a completely valid and legitimate way to obey page 196, but you will enter a rules paradox: the evocation wizard adds their int mod to one roll, and you've now defined the roll as mixed dice, so addition is no longer a defined mathematical operation. You will need to house rule what it means to add a number to a roll, in this context.
Wolf, you are not adding the dice up nor are you disturbing that pool out. You simply pick a target for each dart, after the targets are set, you roll that many dice and add one to each die. If it is a factor of “all dice must be rolled at once” and then figuring out what die goes to what target, simply color code them: kobold 1: red die, kobold 2: green die, orc: blue die. Similar to when you have multiple d20’s for multiple attacks, matching dice for the damage. Prevents the max damage on a die that matches a miss from being confused with minimum damage roll on a hitting attack die.
This is also a completely valid and legitimate way to obey page 196, but you will enter a rules paradox: the evocation wizard adds their int mod to one roll, and you've now defined the roll as mixed dice, so addition is no longer a defined mathematical operation. You will need to house rule what it means to add a number to a roll, in this context.
You don't get to define anything. The spell tells you what to roll: 1d4+1.
That is defining. The spell does not actually say only to roll one die. It says a dart does 1d4+1 and that there are a number of darts equal to 3+ slot level used-1.
Again for a fireball, you do not roll one die and multiply by 8.
And again, spells do not have to all follow the Page 196 rule since specific overrides general.
This is a fallacious argument with a false equivalency. Fireball tells you exactly how much damage each target takes (8d6), and each one takes the same amount. You roll 8d6 one time for all of the targets affected. Magic missile tells you exactly how much damage a target takes (1d4+1) and each one takes the same amount. You roll 1d4+1 one time, and all of the affected targets take the same damage. They are the same in that regard.
The fact that you misunderstand what the interpretation means for fireball is telling about why you misunderstand magic missile.
That doesn't at all dispute the above, I get that it's hard to pay attention with so many posts, but still.
"If the missiles are divided 1 and 2 between two targets, they do not take the same damage" is not how the spell works. You do not divide the missiles up by targets (i.e this target takes 2 missiles, this target takes 1 missiles), you divide the creatures by targets (this creature is 2 targets, this other creature is 1 target).
Thus, if your hitting 1 creature with 5 magic missiles, that creature counts as 5 targets, and each target takes 1d4 + 1 damage. So the creature takes the target damage once, twice, thrice, then 4 and 5 times. Technically every target took the exact same amount of damage, it's just that all those targets happened to be the same person.
While yes, normally AoE spells cannot target the same creature again, Magic Missile has a specific rule which overrides this "you can direct them to hit one creature or several". I will also bring up the line before that, which states that "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target". Note that it says its which is singular, each missile has it's own target. Thus, by directing two missiles to hit one creature, each missile hit targets that creature once, still one creature, but that one creature is two targets.
Confusing right?
Edit: Sorry if the first sentence is a little rude, but this exact point was addressed on the same page here, and here.
That is defining. The spell does not actually say only to roll one die. It says a dart does 1d4+1 and that there are a number of darts equal to 3+ slot level used-1.
Again for a fireball, you do not roll one die and multiply by 8.
And again, spells do not have to all follow the Page 196 rule since specific overrides general.
This is a fallacious argument with a false equivalency. Fireball tells you exactly how much damage each target takes (8d6), and each one takes the same amount. You roll 8d6 one time for all of the targets affected. Magic missile tells you exactly how much damage a target takes (1d4+1) and each one takes the same amount. You roll 1d4+1 one time, and all of the affected targets take the same damage. They are the same in that regard.
The fact that you misunderstand what the interpretation means for fireball is telling about why you misunderstand magic missile.
Kotath is maximum right. All affected targets of Magic Missile do not take the same damage, in general. They can, but it's not mandatory.
Thus, if your hitting 1 creature with 5 magic missiles, that creature counts as 5 targets, and each target takes 1d4 + 1 damage. So the creature takes the target damage once, twice, thrice, then 4 and 5 times. Technically every target took the exact same amount of damage, it's just that all those targets happened to be the same person.
This is not in the Magic Missile spell text. The RAW when Magic Missile targets only one creature is that you roll 1d4+1 X times, where X is the number of darts you summoned. Nothing in the text of Magic Missile says otherwise, and nothing on page 196 says otherwise.
I literally quoted the exact spell text in question what more do you expect from me lol.
"Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target."
Every dart hit hits a creature, and when a dart hits a creature, that creature becomes a target of that singular dart. (Each dart has it's own target, because of the wording of "its target")
"you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
You can direct each dart to hit a creature (overriding the normal rules of not being able to simultaneously hit a creature multiple times). Look above what happens when a dart hits a creature.
In addition, I will emphasis my own sentence that I literally just wrote in this post that: "Each dart has it's own target, because of the wording of 'its target'"
Edit: And again, spells like fireball cannot target the same creature more than once because it doesn't have the specific rule of "you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
And no Kotath, Magic Missile only overrides the rules that it says it overrides. No where does it say that 'you roll separately for each dart", so it doesn't override that rule. But it overrides the targeting rules because it explicitly states it does.
That doesn't at all dispute the above, I get that it's hard to pay attention with so many posts, but still.
"If the missiles are divided 1 and 2 between two targets, they do not take the same damage" is not how the spell works. You do not divide the missiles up by targets (i.e this target takes 2 missiles, this target takes 1 missiles), you divide the creatures by targets (this creature is 2 targets, this other creature is 1 target).
Actually, each dart applies 1d4+1 to a single target. The spell creates multiple instances of damage, and each instance of damage is single target.
That is defining. The spell does not actually say only to roll one die. It says a dart does 1d4+1 and that there are a number of darts equal to 3+ slot level used-1.
Again for a fireball, you do not roll one die and multiply by 8.
And again, spells do not have to all follow the Page 196 rule since specific overrides general.
This is a fallacious argument with a false equivalency. Fireball tells you exactly how much damage each target takes (8d6), and each one takes the same amount. You roll 8d6 one time for all of the targets affected. Magic missile tells you exactly how much damage a target takes (1d4+1) and each one takes the same amount. You roll 1d4+1 one time, and all of the affected targets take the same damage. They are the same in that regard.
The fact that you misunderstand what the interpretation means for fireball is telling about why you misunderstand magic missile.
Please cite where it say in Magic Missile where every target takes the same amount. If the missiles are divided 1 and 2 between two targets, they do not take the same damage.
The oft quote rule on p. 196. Magic missile sure doesn't say that it negates that rule.
Fireball does not hit any given target within it twice. That is my point. The rule being applied to Fireball is not applicable to Magic Missile.
Each missile has its own target. Each missile hits its target.
And that is ok, because specific overrides general.
Edit: this is a reply to Kotath and I edited this sentence in because I can't remember what the reply button does apparently.
Creatures can take unequal damage, but since creatures =/= targets (the switching of words is used because they mean different things, unless you can find something that says targets = creatures), then it doesn't matter cause each target is taking the same damage.
If creatures and targets were the same, then the spell wouldn't work because each missile has it's own target and you would run into a paradox (say you take five magic missiles and divide it unevenly 2 human, okay the spell says each missile has it's own target, so the spell has 5 targets but if targets = creatures then there would be 5 creatures (5 targets = 5 creatures) except there's actually only 2 humans, so no targets is not equal to creatures because it doesn't say that and I don't want to break the universe).
But the 196 wording itself switches from 'targets' to 'creatures,' clearly equating the two. The specifics of Magic Missile operate differently allowing creatures to take unequal damage.
Ah, again a fallacy. The example uses 'creatures' because the spells used in the example tell you that 'each creature [in the area]' is a target. Magic missile tells you that 'each dart' can affect a creature. There is a difference. One tells you that a creature is a target of the entire fireball spell, the other tells you that a creature can be the target of 'each dart.'
I assume everyone here has worked a hourly job before. If I said you get paid $25.00 an hour, by the one die roll only group’s logic, I would only pay you $25.00, regardless of how many hours you worked. You are only getting paid $25.00 for an hour period.
A does not mean all, I am beating a dead horse, but the spell does not say you only roll one die for all darts. The wording on the spell and rule for AOE damage are not clear enough in this instance, but keep in mind they are all OPTIONAL. My game does not run this way, we roll for each dart separately. We always have and always will. And that is fine. You want to roll once and deal only 2 damage to 11 targets with a 9th level spell slot, go ahead. Even the D&D video games have rolled for damage for each dart.
Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls, two top authorities for sage advice both give different answers for the same question. Thats fine, they both do take the bowing out option quite a lot without giving a definitive answer to this question to avoid backlash from one side or the other.
In regards to empowering evocation, errata states Empowered Evocation (p. 117). “The damage roll” has been changed to “one damage roll.” Yes, this means only one dart gains the bonus in our game. If you applied it to all darts, a first level spell from a 20 int evocation wizard would do Up to 1d4+6 three times to a single target. No roll to hit needed, force damage is least resisted, and no save to reduce damage. Burning hands would only do 3d6+5 in a 15’ cone, save for half. 21-30 damage vs. 8-23 damage with save for half? That logic seem sound? That makes magic missile the most overpowering single target spell ever. Sure Shield can stop it, but against a non-arcane caster or martial characters? The boss of a dungeon could one shot each player in a party per round.
Example: Lvl 10 BBEG: uses Magic missile against the cleric or tank at lvl 5 spell slot. He does 49-70 damage unavailable. He can do this twice. Once in the same round if he dips into fighter to gain action surge. Then begins to use his 4th level spells, of which he has 3, doing 42-60 damage each to a single target. No other spell is this brutal.
But the 196 wording itself switches from 'targets' to 'creatures,' clearly equating the two. The specifics of Magic Missile operate differently allowing creatures to take unequal damage.
Ah, again a fallacy. The example uses 'creatures' because the spells used in the example tell you that 'each creature [in the area]' is a target. Magic missile tells you that 'each dart' can affect a creature. There is a difference. One tells you that a creature is a target of the entire fireball spell, the other tells you that a creature can be the target of 'each dart.'
The wording is:
"If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast."
Note: 'for all creatures,' equated with 'for all targets.'
Note also 'caught in the blast' rather than 'affected by the spell,' which again speaks to this rule being intended to apply to conventional 'blast' type spells rather than the precision darts of Magic Missile.
Ah. So you didn't understand what I said. Re-read it and try again. They are equated because fireball and flame strike tell you that they target 'each creature in [the area],' not because targets and creatures are interchangeable generally. On the other hand, magic missile says that 'each dart' has a target.
The problem here is that Magic Missile is a single spell but multiple effects (each individual missile is an effect), and is pretty much the only spell that works quite that way (Scorching Ray hits multiple targets as part of a single action, but doesn't specify simultaneous).
In general where a spell has multiple effects, those effects are rolled separately (e.g. Ice Storm) but there's no specific rule discussing that.
But the 196 wording itself switches from 'targets' to 'creatures,' clearly equating the two. The specifics of Magic Missile operate differently allowing creatures to take unequal damage.
Ah, again a fallacy. The example uses 'creatures' because the spells used in the example tell you that 'each creature [in the area]' is a target. Magic missile tells you that 'each dart' can affect a creature. There is a difference. One tells you that a creature is a target of the entire fireball spell, the other tells you that a creature can be the target of 'each dart.'
The wording is:
"If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast."
Note: 'for all creatures,' equated with 'for all targets.'
Note also 'caught in the blast' rather than 'affected by the spell,' which again speaks to this rule being intended to apply to conventional 'blast' type spells rather than the precision darts of Magic Missile.
Ah. So you didn't understand what I said. Re-read it and try again. They are equated because fireball and flame strike tell you that they target 'each creature in [the area],' not because targets and creatures are interchangeable generally. On the other hand, magic missile says that 'each dart' has a target.
And you did not understand what I am saying. I was talking about the wording of the page 196 rule. That Magic Missile does not follow that model is my point. Since it does not follow that model it is not a given that said rule applies at all to Magic Missile. The rule was, as you say, not written with Magic Missile in mind but rather with spells such as Fireball and Flame Strike in mind.
Try again. Nothing in the wording of that rule indicates that it shouldn't apply to magic missile. In fact, magic missile goes out of its way to tell you that the rule on p. 196 should apply; it might be the only spell in the entire edition that tells you that its discrete effects are simultaneous.
And you literally said "Note: 'for all creatures,' equated with 'for all targets.'" which is, as i pointed out above (twice), true specifically for spells that tell you that 'each creature' is affected. Magic missile, on the other hand, tells you that each dart has a target.
Although if you want to keep moving the goal posts, go ahead. I might stop following them though.
That's well and good, but it's important to work this out ahead of time so your spellcasting PC can make rational choices instead of finding out at cast time that a spell doesn't work as expected. If you want to roll for one missile and multiply, the spell is a lot tastier for builds like an evocation wizard, even if you have to "burn" one missile on a second target you don't care about to trigger the multiplication.
Each missile has a target. It should not matter whether whether you select another *creature* because the second and third missiles each have their own *target*.
Wolf, you are not adding the dice up nor are you disturbing that pool out. You simply pick a target for each dart, after the targets are set, you roll that many dice and add one to each die. If it is a factor of “all dice must be rolled at once” and then figuring out what die goes to what target, simply color code them: kobold 1: red die, kobold 2: green die, orc: blue die. Similar to when you have multiple d20’s for multiple attacks, matching dice for the damage. Prevents the max damage on a die that matches a miss from being confused with minimum damage roll on a hitting attack die.
That would violate p196, which is based on the number of targets the spell has.
Then after that, you follow the rules for spells with damage to multiple targets at the same time.........................
roll the damage once. (note that I'm not saying "at once," I mean ONCE, as in 1d4+1.)
This is also a completely valid and legitimate way to obey page 196, but you will enter a rules paradox: the evocation wizard adds their int mod to one roll, and you've now defined the roll as mixed dice, so addition is no longer a defined mathematical operation. You will need to house rule what it means to add a number to a roll, in this context.
You don't get to define anything. The spell tells you what to roll: 1d4+1.
This is a fallacious argument with a false equivalency. Fireball tells you exactly how much damage each target takes (8d6), and each one takes the same amount. You roll 8d6 one time for all of the targets affected. Magic missile tells you exactly how much damage a target takes (1d4+1) and each one takes the same amount. You roll 1d4+1 one time, and all of the affected targets take the same damage. They are the same in that regard.
The fact that you misunderstand what the interpretation means for fireball is telling about why you misunderstand magic missile.
That doesn't at all dispute the above, I get that it's hard to pay attention with so many posts, but still.
"If the missiles are divided 1 and 2 between two targets, they do not take the same damage" is not how the spell works. You do not divide the missiles up by targets (i.e this target takes 2 missiles, this target takes 1 missiles), you divide the creatures by targets (this creature is 2 targets, this other creature is 1 target).
Thus, if your hitting 1 creature with 5 magic missiles, that creature counts as 5 targets, and each target takes 1d4 + 1 damage. So the creature takes the target damage once, twice, thrice, then 4 and 5 times. Technically every target took the exact same amount of damage, it's just that all those targets happened to be the same person.
While yes, normally AoE spells cannot target the same creature again, Magic Missile has a specific rule which overrides this "you can direct them to hit one creature or several". I will also bring up the line before that, which states that "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target". Note that it says its which is singular, each missile has it's own target. Thus, by directing two missiles to hit one creature, each missile hit targets that creature once, still one creature, but that one creature is two targets.
Confusing right?
Edit: Sorry if the first sentence is a little rude, but this exact point was addressed on the same page here, and here.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Kotath is maximum right. All affected targets of Magic Missile do not take the same damage, in general. They can, but it's not mandatory.
This is not in the Magic Missile spell text. The RAW when Magic Missile targets only one creature is that you roll 1d4+1 X times, where X is the number of darts you summoned. Nothing in the text of Magic Missile says otherwise, and nothing on page 196 says otherwise.
I literally quoted the exact spell text in question what more do you expect from me lol.
Every dart hit hits a creature, and when a dart hits a creature, that creature becomes a target of that singular dart. (Each dart has it's own target, because of the wording of "its target")
You can direct each dart to hit a creature (overriding the normal rules of not being able to simultaneously hit a creature multiple times). Look above what happens when a dart hits a creature.
In addition, I will emphasis my own sentence that I literally just wrote in this post that: "Each dart has it's own target, because of the wording of 'its target'"
Edit: And again, spells like fireball cannot target the same creature more than once because it doesn't have the specific rule of "you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
And no Kotath, Magic Missile only overrides the rules that it says it overrides. No where does it say that 'you roll separately for each dart", so it doesn't override that rule. But it overrides the targeting rules because it explicitly states it does.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Actually, each dart applies 1d4+1 to a single target. The spell creates multiple instances of damage, and each instance of damage is single target.
The oft quote rule on p. 196. Magic missile sure doesn't say that it negates that rule.
Each missile has its own target. Each missile hits its target.
...
Edit: this is a reply to Kotath and I edited this sentence in because I can't remember what the reply button does apparently.
Creatures can take unequal damage, but since creatures =/= targets (the switching of words is used because they mean different things, unless you can find something that says targets = creatures), then it doesn't matter cause each target is taking the same damage.
If creatures and targets were the same, then the spell wouldn't work because each missile has it's own target and you would run into a paradox (say you take five magic missiles and divide it unevenly 2 human, okay the spell says each missile has it's own target, so the spell has 5 targets but if targets = creatures then there would be 5 creatures (5 targets = 5 creatures) except there's actually only 2 humans, so no targets is not equal to creatures because it doesn't say that and I don't want to break the universe).
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Ah, again a fallacy. The example uses 'creatures' because the spells used in the example tell you that 'each creature [in the area]' is a target. Magic missile tells you that 'each dart' can affect a creature. There is a difference. One tells you that a creature is a target of the entire fireball spell, the other tells you that a creature can be the target of 'each dart.'
I assume everyone here has worked a hourly job before. If I said you get paid $25.00 an hour, by the one die roll only group’s logic, I would only pay you $25.00, regardless of how many hours you worked. You are only getting paid $25.00 for an hour period.
A does not mean all, I am beating a dead horse, but the spell does not say you only roll one die for all darts. The wording on the spell and rule for AOE damage are not clear enough in this instance, but keep in mind they are all OPTIONAL. My game does not run this way, we roll for each dart separately. We always have and always will. And that is fine. You want to roll once and deal only 2 damage to 11 targets with a 9th level spell slot, go ahead. Even the D&D video games have rolled for damage for each dart.
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Magic Missile
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_missile
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_Missile
Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls, two top authorities for sage advice both give different answers for the same question. Thats fine, they both do take the bowing out option quite a lot without giving a definitive answer to this question to avoid backlash from one side or the other.
In regards to empowering evocation, errata states Empowered Evocation (p. 117). “The damage roll” has been changed to “one damage roll.” Yes, this means only one dart gains the bonus in our game. If you applied it to all darts, a first level spell from a 20 int evocation wizard would do Up to 1d4+6 three times to a single target. No roll to hit needed, force damage is least resisted, and no save to reduce damage. Burning hands would only do 3d6+5 in a 15’ cone, save for half. 21-30 damage vs. 8-23 damage with save for half? That logic seem sound? That makes magic missile the most overpowering single target spell ever. Sure Shield can stop it, but against a non-arcane caster or martial characters? The boss of a dungeon could one shot each player in a party per round.
Example: Lvl 10 BBEG: uses Magic missile against the cleric or tank at lvl 5 spell slot. He does 49-70 damage unavailable. He can do this twice. Once in the same round if he dips into fighter to gain action surge. Then begins to use his 4th level spells, of which he has 3, doing 42-60 damage each to a single target. No other spell is this brutal.
Ah. So you didn't understand what I said. Re-read it and try again. They are equated because fireball and flame strike tell you that they target 'each creature in [the area],' not because targets and creatures are interchangeable generally. On the other hand, magic missile says that 'each dart' has a target.
The problem here is that Magic Missile is a single spell but multiple effects (each individual missile is an effect), and is pretty much the only spell that works quite that way (Scorching Ray hits multiple targets as part of a single action, but doesn't specify simultaneous).
In general where a spell has multiple effects, those effects are rolled separately (e.g. Ice Storm) but there's no specific rule discussing that.
Try again. Nothing in the wording of that rule indicates that it shouldn't apply to magic missile. In fact, magic missile goes out of its way to tell you that the rule on p. 196 should apply; it might be the only spell in the entire edition that tells you that its discrete effects are simultaneous.
And you literally said "Note: 'for all creatures,' equated with 'for all targets.'" which is, as i pointed out above (twice), true specifically for spells that tell you that 'each creature' is affected. Magic missile, on the other hand, tells you that each dart has a target.
Although if you want to keep moving the goal posts, go ahead. I might stop following them though.