I would rule that it would depend on the symbol. If it's pictographic and not part of a specific "language" (like hieroglyphs or chinese characters), then its not "writing" and would be illegible. If its an abbreviation or letter symbols (like Au for Gold on the periodic table), you would read the literal letters and have to figure out the meaning (so in that case you would literally read "A...U" or "Au" without the connection to "gold"). If its a language's script (or image, hieroglyph, or pictogram) for "gold" you would read "gold"
And anything coded would only be read literally, without the intended meaning, unless you knew or deciphered the code.
So it should allow you to know the ingredient's name by this logic, but you would need to find somone who understood what it means.
I'd go with this.
Eyes of the rune keeper tells you that this symbol is "mercury", but you have to provide the knowledge yourself that "mercury" means "a heavy silver-coloured liquid." The invocation translates this word as "athelas", but you have to know "small plant, tiny heart-shaped leaves, grows in the shadow of elm trees, often known as kingsfoot" (or whatever).
I suspect it has to leave some words untranslated because they don't have a translation. For example, there is no way to translate 'potato' into classical Latin because potatoes are a new world vegetable and thus entirely unknown to the Romans.
No the symbols are the traditional alchemical symbols for things like mercury and sulphur. My gut feeling is that they can't be understood as writing because a knowledge of alchemy would be needed for them to make sense. And yes, it was the issue of photographic languages such as hieroglyphics that were causing me to waver. Thank you for helping me to sort it out in my head!
My hot take on this is that EotRK would allow the reader to know the literal meaning of the word or words. For example, if it's the alchemical symbol for "Sulphur", well, they know the symbol means Sulphur, that's it. Unless the character is versed in Alchemy, that information may not be terribly useful.
As an example, let's take the Japanese word わびさび. With EotRK, the reader would know that this means "Wabi-sabi". They wouldn't, however, know that the word describes the idea of finding beauty in imperfection. Just because they can read something doesn't mean they necessarily understand it.
I guess my bigger question is "What constitutes writing?" to me, an alchemical symbol is not necessarily "writing". Sure, certain languages are pictographic, but those are languages with a form of writing. "Alchemy" is not a language, so its symbols are not necessarily writing. Now, if the symbol involved writing, you could read it, but you might not gain meaning from it. For example, in real world "alchemy" (ie, chemistry) we have a periodic table. The table uses letters as symbols representing elements, and those letters are certainly writing, but the language is not "periodic table" (its English and/or Latin), so it could stand that you could "read" the table in the english/latin it was written in, knowing the letters "AU" for example, but you won't get the context of the table in which those letters stand for "gold" (technically "aurum", but still). You would read that symbol as either the literal letters or the syllable they form, but not directly as "gold" unless you had the context/knowledge of the table.
I guess my bigger question is "What constitutes writing?" to me, an alchemical symbol is not necessarily "writing". Sure, certain languages are pictographic, but those are languages with a form of writing. "Alchemy" is not a language, so its symbols are not necessarily writing.
Alchemy isn't a language, but the words and symbols used to describe it are a specialized vocabulary of a language.
I guess my bigger question is "What constitutes writing?" to me, an alchemical symbol is not necessarily "writing". Sure, certain languages are pictographic, but those are languages with a form of writing. "Alchemy" is not a language, so its symbols are not necessarily writing.
Alchemy isn't a language, but the words and symbols used to describe it are a specialized vocabulary of a language.
Yes, and the words would be translatable, but the symbols themselves are a step removed. For example:
In my day job, I'm an architect. When I make drawings, I use words ("Fire Extinguisher Cabinet"), abbreviations ("FEC") and symbols (a green triangle over a box on a floor plan). Now consider the following four possible understandings of these three things:
1) If you are an architect and speak the same language, you can "read" all three of these.
2) If you are an architect but don't speak my language, you could probably understand the symbol, but probably not the word or abbreviation (unless translated).
3) If you speak the same language but aren't an architect, you would understand the word only, you could read the abbreviation (but probably wouldn't understand it), and wouldn't understand the symbol at all.
4)If you aren't an architect and don't speak the language, all of it is incomprehensible.
Now..enter EotRK: to me, absent any training or specializing in a field, the basic ability allows you, if you were #4, to be #3. Likewise with Alchemy, without any training, you would go from #4 to #3, meaning that looking at alchemical symbols, you would likely read and understand the words (unless they were highly technical), read the letters of any abbreviation (without linking them to meaning, although you might be able to deduce it, say with an investigation check), but you wouldn't understand the symbol as it isn't writing tied to any language. But, if you were an alchemist, you might be able to deduce the symbol and tie the abbreviation to the actual word.
I guess my bigger question is "What constitutes writing?" to me, an alchemical symbol is not necessarily "writing". Sure, certain languages are pictographic, but those are languages with a form of writing. "Alchemy" is not a language, so its symbols are not necessarily writing. Now, if the symbol involved writing, you could read it, but you might not gain meaning from it. For example, in real world "alchemy" (ie, chemistry) we have a periodic table. The table uses letters as symbols representing elements, and those letters are certainly writing, but the language is not "periodic table" (its English and/or Latin), so it could stand that you could "read" the table in the english/latin it was written in, knowing the letters "AU" for example, but you won't get the context of the table in which those letters stand for "gold" (technically "aurum", but still). You would read that symbol as either the literal letters or the syllable they form, but not directly as "gold" unless you had the context/knowledge of the table.
If it is a systematic graphical form of communications, it is arguably a written language.
If you use Eyes of the Rune Keeper on an equation written in another script, is the translation going to be:
10 Σ i(i+1) i=1
or:
"For the numbers 1 to 10, multiply each number by the next number and add up all the results."
or:
440
?
Alternatively, how would it translate a musical stave?
Also, how would Eyes of the Rune Keeper translate terms that the reader has no conception of, such as "corporation" or "imaginary number" or "radio wave"?
Also, how would Eyes of the Rune Keeper translate terms that the reader has no conception of, such as "corporation" or "imaginary number" or "radio wave"?
You would read the word without any meaning. The same as if we translate ancient texts and come across a name or a place we have no reference to in modern times.
No the symbols are the traditional alchemical symbols for things like mercury and sulphur. My gut feeling is that they can't be understood as writing because a knowledge of alchemy would be needed for them to make sense. And yes, it was the issue of photographic languages such as hieroglyphics that were causing me to waver. Thank you for helping me to sort it out in my head!
My hot take on this is that EotRK would allow the reader to know the literal meaning of the word or words. For example, if it's the alchemical symbol for "Sulphur", well, they know the symbol means Sulphur, that's it. Unless the character is versed in Alchemy, that information may not be terribly useful.
As an example, let's take the Japanese word わびさび. With EotRK, the reader would know that this means "Wabi-sabi". They wouldn't, however, know that the word describes the idea of finding beauty in imperfection. Just because they can read something doesn't mean they necessarily understand it.
That's how I interpret it, at any rate.
I disagree. If there is an equivalent word or phrase in a known language, then the 'Eye'r' would read it as that equivalent. That is what translation means. Now in Common, there is the word 'Sulphur' so yes, that would read as 'Sulphur' and if the person does not know what sulphur is, well bad luck for them. However わびさび would merely be pronounced "Wabi-sabi." That is not an actual translation. Otherwise, translation magics would be useless, nothing more than pronunciation guides....
I disagree. "Wabi-sabi" has no translation, it's a concept. Translating a word doesn't impart the meaning of the word, it only translates the word.
If you take a French word, let's use Foyer as an example, and translate it to English, the word we use is still Foyer. If someone doesn't know what a Foyer is they don't suddenly gain that information upon translation.
Œuf -> Egg
That's what you get, the translation. The magic translates languages, it doesn't define words/concepts.
But that's how I choose to interpret it, your mileage may vary.
Translation is tricky, though, if a word has multiple meanings. In many languages, the proper meaning of particular words only make sense when you understand all the words around it. The word "Lord", for instance, in the English language often refers to man who owns significant property and has several employees. It could also refer to a member of a legislative body. And it could be a reference to the deity commonly referred to in that language. Someone unfamiliar with England's history and culture could easily misinterpret the contextual meaning. Or the character who has Eyes of the Rune Keeper's main language is one without capitalization? If popular science fiction (looking at you Star Trek and Doctor Who) were realistic, this kind of translation problem would be apparent and fairly common.
And yet you are fully able to provide a translation, conveying the meaning of the concept. All words are concepts. Nothing in any of the translation spells limits the translation of any given word to a one word translation. The German word "Antidiskriminierungsgesetz" translates to "" two words, one of which is hyphenated. That is it's proper translation.
"Foyer" is the same in both French and English because the two cultures interacted enough that the word migrated into English. 'Restaurant' is the same word in the original French as in both English and German. It even retains the French pronunciation in German. That is not because the concept is untranslatable but rather that the word conveyed the idea so well that all three cultures (and frankly many more) adopted it. That is a very different situation than 'Wabi-Sabi,' which has not been so adapted.
Preface: This is all based on my own interpretation of the skill. I'm not saying I'm right just that this is how I personally choose to interpret it.
Of course, because I looked up what the word means. Just because I know how to read わびさび doesn't mean I inherently know the meaning. In your example, I may know that "Antidiskriminierungsgesetz" translates to "Anti-discrimination law" but what is the meaning of "Anti-discrimination law"?
There is a difference between being able to translate a word between languages and knowing what the word means in the language it's been translated into.
EotRK allows you to read any language. It doesn't mean you understand it. There's a difference between reading and understanding.
Think of it this way: If you see words written in Fiendish that translate into common as "Throne of Bhaal" but you don't know who or what Bhaal is would EotRK impart that knowledge? Taken another way, if you see the word "engraving" but don't know what an engraving is, EotRK doesn't tell you the meaning of the word; you would, however, be able to say "this word means engraving" to anyone with you.
I'm not trying to tell you that you have to use it that way or even that my interpretation is the correct one. If you disagree you're free to rule it differently in your game(s).
I edited in a preface to my previous comment but it would appear that you quoted before I saved it. Unfortunate timing, but I'm going to include it here for visibility.
Preface: This is entirely my own, personal interpretation of the skill. I am in no way saying I'm right or you're wrong.
If a writing for, as I said before, "engraving" is used but the one reading doesn't know what an engraving is, does EotRK impart that knowledge? In my interpretation, it doesn't. EotRK translates the word into their language thus allowing them to read it, whether or not they know the meaning of the word(s) is not guaranteed.
This relates back to Sulphur as such: If someone who doesn't know what sulphur is or what sulphur does - someone with no knowledge of sulphur - finds a hastily written note in Gnomish that reads "Going to pick up sulphur, be back asap" do they learn that sulphur refers to a "highly combustible, pale yellow non-metal substance" or are they simply able to know that the note says "the writer has left to obtain something called 'sulphur' and will return as soon as they are able to do so"?
In my interpretation, it would be the latter.
Individual words do not have a "linguistic meaning", they have individual definitions. EotRK doesn't provide definitions. Sentences, however, do have linguistic meaning and, as a result, EotRK would translate the sentence and the Warlock would know the meaning behind the statement, minus any specifics that they don't already have knowledge of (ie. what sulphur is). I wouldn't allow EotRK to see through coded script, though, such as a situation where "The fox has entered the henhouse" is used to mean "The target has arrived." The Warlock would see the translation and know that the writing means "a thing called a 'fox' has entered a place called a 'henhouse'."
If the word sulphur exists in their language, then whether they know the meaning or not, they get the word sulphur. If not, the translation would be whatever the best combination of words are used in their language is. If it is a thing that literally does not exist at all in their language (the 'potato' example, in a language which has no potatoes and thus no word for them) then sure, it stays as the original word in the original language.
You probably said this before and I completely glossed over it. Thank you for clarifying.
Based on this I think I'm more or less in agreement with your take on the skill.
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I would rule that it would depend on the symbol. If it's pictographic and not part of a specific "language" (like hieroglyphs or chinese characters), then its not "writing" and would be illegible. If its an abbreviation or letter symbols (like Au for Gold on the periodic table), you would read the literal letters and have to figure out the meaning (so in that case you would literally read "A...U" or "Au" without the connection to "gold"). If its a language's script (or image, hieroglyph, or pictogram) for "gold" you would read "gold"
And anything coded would only be read literally, without the intended meaning, unless you knew or deciphered the code.
I'd go with this.
Eyes of the rune keeper tells you that this symbol is "mercury", but you have to provide the knowledge yourself that "mercury" means "a heavy silver-coloured liquid." The invocation translates this word as "athelas", but you have to know "small plant, tiny heart-shaped leaves, grows in the shadow of elm trees, often known as kingsfoot" (or whatever).
I suspect it has to leave some words untranslated because they don't have a translation. For example, there is no way to translate 'potato' into classical Latin because potatoes are a new world vegetable and thus entirely unknown to the Romans.
My hot take on this is that EotRK would allow the reader to know the literal meaning of the word or words. For example, if it's the alchemical symbol for "Sulphur", well, they know the symbol means Sulphur, that's it. Unless the character is versed in Alchemy, that information may not be terribly useful.
As an example, let's take the Japanese word わびさび. With EotRK, the reader would know that this means "Wabi-sabi". They wouldn't, however, know that the word describes the idea of finding beauty in imperfection. Just because they can read something doesn't mean they necessarily understand it.
That's how I interpret it, at any rate.
I guess my bigger question is "What constitutes writing?" to me, an alchemical symbol is not necessarily "writing". Sure, certain languages are pictographic, but those are languages with a form of writing. "Alchemy" is not a language, so its symbols are not necessarily writing. Now, if the symbol involved writing, you could read it, but you might not gain meaning from it. For example, in real world "alchemy" (ie, chemistry) we have a periodic table. The table uses letters as symbols representing elements, and those letters are certainly writing, but the language is not "periodic table" (its English and/or Latin), so it could stand that you could "read" the table in the english/latin it was written in, knowing the letters "AU" for example, but you won't get the context of the table in which those letters stand for "gold" (technically "aurum", but still). You would read that symbol as either the literal letters or the syllable they form, but not directly as "gold" unless you had the context/knowledge of the table.
Alchemy isn't a language, but the words and symbols used to describe it are a specialized vocabulary of a language.
Yes, and the words would be translatable, but the symbols themselves are a step removed. For example:
In my day job, I'm an architect. When I make drawings, I use words ("Fire Extinguisher Cabinet"), abbreviations ("FEC") and symbols (a green triangle over a box on a floor plan). Now consider the following four possible understandings of these three things:
1) If you are an architect and speak the same language, you can "read" all three of these.
2) If you are an architect but don't speak my language, you could probably understand the symbol, but probably not the word or abbreviation (unless translated).
3) If you speak the same language but aren't an architect, you would understand the word only, you could read the abbreviation (but probably wouldn't understand it), and wouldn't understand the symbol at all.
4)If you aren't an architect and don't speak the language, all of it is incomprehensible.
Now..enter EotRK: to me, absent any training or specializing in a field, the basic ability allows you, if you were #4, to be #3. Likewise with Alchemy, without any training, you would go from #4 to #3, meaning that looking at alchemical symbols, you would likely read and understand the words (unless they were highly technical), read the letters of any abbreviation (without linking them to meaning, although you might be able to deduce it, say with an investigation check), but you wouldn't understand the symbol as it isn't writing tied to any language. But, if you were an alchemist, you might be able to deduce the symbol and tie the abbreviation to the actual word.
If you use Eyes of the Rune Keeper on an equation written in another script, is the translation going to be:
10
Σ i(i+1)
i=1
or:
"For the numbers 1 to 10, multiply each number by the next number and add up all the results."
or:
440
?
Alternatively, how would it translate a musical stave?
Also, how would Eyes of the Rune Keeper translate terms that the reader has no conception of, such as "corporation" or "imaginary number" or "radio wave"?
You would read the word without any meaning. The same as if we translate ancient texts and come across a name or a place we have no reference to in modern times.
I disagree. "Wabi-sabi" has no translation, it's a concept. Translating a word doesn't impart the meaning of the word, it only translates the word.
If you take a French word, let's use Foyer as an example, and translate it to English, the word we use is still Foyer. If someone doesn't know what a Foyer is they don't suddenly gain that information upon translation.
Œuf -> Egg
That's what you get, the translation. The magic translates languages, it doesn't define words/concepts.
But that's how I choose to interpret it, your mileage may vary.
Translation is tricky, though, if a word has multiple meanings. In many languages, the proper meaning of particular words only make sense when you understand all the words around it. The word "Lord", for instance, in the English language often refers to man who owns significant property and has several employees. It could also refer to a member of a legislative body. And it could be a reference to the deity commonly referred to in that language. Someone unfamiliar with England's history and culture could easily misinterpret the contextual meaning. Or the character who has Eyes of the Rune Keeper's main language is one without capitalization? If popular science fiction (looking at you Star Trek and Doctor Who) were realistic, this kind of translation problem would be apparent and fairly common.
Preface: This is all based on my own interpretation of the skill. I'm not saying I'm right just that this is how I personally choose to interpret it.
Of course, because I looked up what the word means. Just because I know how to read わびさび doesn't mean I inherently know the meaning. In your example, I may know that "Antidiskriminierungsgesetz" translates to "Anti-discrimination law" but what is the meaning of "Anti-discrimination law"?
There is a difference between being able to translate a word between languages and knowing what the word means in the language it's been translated into.
EotRK allows you to read any language. It doesn't mean you understand it. There's a difference between reading and understanding.
Think of it this way: If you see words written in Fiendish that translate into common as "Throne of Bhaal" but you don't know who or what Bhaal is would EotRK impart that knowledge? Taken another way, if you see the word "engraving" but don't know what an engraving is, EotRK doesn't tell you the meaning of the word; you would, however, be able to say "this word means engraving" to anyone with you.
I'm not trying to tell you that you have to use it that way or even that my interpretation is the correct one. If you disagree you're free to rule it differently in your game(s).
I edited in a preface to my previous comment but it would appear that you quoted before I saved it. Unfortunate timing, but I'm going to include it here for visibility.
Preface: This is entirely my own, personal interpretation of the skill. I am in no way saying I'm right or you're wrong.
If a writing for, as I said before, "engraving" is used but the one reading doesn't know what an engraving is, does EotRK impart that knowledge? In my interpretation, it doesn't. EotRK translates the word into their language thus allowing them to read it, whether or not they know the meaning of the word(s) is not guaranteed.
This relates back to Sulphur as such: If someone who doesn't know what sulphur is or what sulphur does - someone with no knowledge of sulphur - finds a hastily written note in Gnomish that reads "Going to pick up sulphur, be back asap" do they learn that sulphur refers to a "highly combustible, pale yellow non-metal substance" or are they simply able to know that the note says "the writer has left to obtain something called 'sulphur' and will return as soon as they are able to do so"?
In my interpretation, it would be the latter.
Individual words do not have a "linguistic meaning", they have individual definitions. EotRK doesn't provide definitions. Sentences, however, do have linguistic meaning and, as a result, EotRK would translate the sentence and the Warlock would know the meaning behind the statement, minus any specifics that they don't already have knowledge of (ie. what sulphur is). I wouldn't allow EotRK to see through coded script, though, such as a situation where "The fox has entered the henhouse" is used to mean "The target has arrived." The Warlock would see the translation and know that the writing means "a thing called a 'fox' has entered a place called a 'henhouse'."
You probably said this before and I completely glossed over it. Thank you for clarifying.
Based on this I think I'm more or less in agreement with your take on the skill.