For Classes that prepare spells and get always prepared/known spells from their subclasses, Cleric, Paladin, etc.. When are these spells considered as part of your class spell list for casting from scrolls. Is it when you get the subclass, or is it the level when you would get the spell itself?
Hmmm interesting. I'd say at the level where it's unlocked, and not before. Unlike a class spell list, which always exists, these are features which unlock at specific levels... and the wording of these subclass features has some language which I think is important.
Take the Paladin:
Oath Spells
Each oath has a list of associated spells. You gain access to these spells at the levels specified in the oath description. Once you gain access to an oath spell, you always have it prepared. Oath spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day.
If you gain an oath spell that doesn’t appear on the paladin spell list, the spell is nonetheless a paladin spell for you.
On the one hand, yeah, obviously you gain the spells at the levels that the feature tells you gain them. But more specifically, it isn't "a paladin spell for you" until you have "gain"ed it. Contrast that with a Wizard, who learns new "wizard spells" from the Wizard Spell list (i.e., they already were "wizard spells" before he learned them), and you'll see that these are not "paladin spells" until and unless you hit the required paladin level.
If there was a feature that said "the following spells are [class] spells for you, and you [gain access to them/learn them/treat them as prepared] at the levels specified..." then that I would say is sufficient to treat them as [class] spells ahead of the curve when they're actually unlocked.
I think a lot of the subclasses that grant spells are worded differently from one another in subtle ways, so I'm not positive that there aren't any that would satisfy that... but at first glance, Paladin Oaths and Ranger archetypes don't, so I'd suspect it's that way for all of them.
Once you gain that subclass, but not until then. That is you can not at first level say "I plan on being a Druid of the Land, so I get those spells on my spell list". Not until you actually become a Druid of the land do those spells count as being on your list.
For Classes that prepare spells and get always prepared/known spells from their subclasses, Cleric, Paladin, etc.. When are these spells considered as part of your class spell list for casting from scrolls. Is it when you get the subclass, or is it the level when you would get the spell itself?
Paladin is a little murky, but Cleric and Druid explicitly state that you gain access to the spells when you reach the listed level in that class.
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For Classes that prepare spells and get always prepared/known spells from their subclasses, Cleric, Paladin, etc.. When are these spells considered as part of your class spell list for casting from scrolls. Is it when you get the subclass, or is it the level when you would get the spell itself?
I would assume to say that once you gain that subclass
Hmmm interesting. I'd say at the level where it's unlocked, and not before. Unlike a class spell list, which always exists, these are features which unlock at specific levels... and the wording of these subclass features has some language which I think is important.
Take the Paladin:
On the one hand, yeah, obviously you gain the spells at the levels that the feature tells you gain them. But more specifically, it isn't "a paladin spell for you" until you have "gain"ed it. Contrast that with a Wizard, who learns new "wizard spells" from the Wizard Spell list (i.e., they already were "wizard spells" before he learned them), and you'll see that these are not "paladin spells" until and unless you hit the required paladin level.
If there was a feature that said "the following spells are [class] spells for you, and you [gain access to them/learn them/treat them as prepared] at the levels specified..." then that I would say is sufficient to treat them as [class] spells ahead of the curve when they're actually unlocked.
I think a lot of the subclasses that grant spells are worded differently from one another in subtle ways, so I'm not positive that there aren't any that would satisfy that... but at first glance, Paladin Oaths and Ranger archetypes don't, so I'd suspect it's that way for all of them.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Once you gain that subclass, but not until then. That is you can not at first level say "I plan on being a Druid of the Land, so I get those spells on my spell list". Not until you actually become a Druid of the land do those spells count as being on your list.
Paladin is a little murky, but Cleric and Druid explicitly state that you gain access to the spells when you reach the listed level in that class.