The problem with his, clearly, is that adventurers can be quasi divine, or somewhat monstrous. In classic literature, Hercules was literally the son of a greater god and strong enough to literally hold the Earth in its place in the heavens. Sampson had strength granted to him directly by God and was strong enough to literally tear down a marble temple using only brute strength. Beowulf was strong enough to literally rip an ogre's arm off.
Other stats are harder to demonstrate, particularly in the fantasy genre, but more modern examples exist. Sherlock Holmes arguably has 20+ intelligence, Patrick Jane arguably 20+ intelligence and charisma (personally I suspect he is really an avatar of Loki or something).
In game, there are divine sorcerers and draconic sorcerers. There are quasi-monstrous races.
Sure, there are plenty of examples of fictional characters who break the mold by being imbued with truly super-human traits, but that's anything but "basic", and entirely outside the scope of a game like D&D to even attempt to balance. Those types of people are literally "Epic", which typically translates to character level 20+.
The soft cap is a "soft" cap for a reason and can absolutely be surpassed in many different ways:
They could literally be gifted power by the gods (i.e. DM can set the attributes however they want.) They could obtain powerful artifacts (i.e. Belt of Storm Giant Strength would grant STR 29) They could craft powerful artifacts. Etc.
If you want a RAW way to take your power level "Over 9000", convince the DM to give you access to an unlimited supply of Magical Tomes. Instant +2, and your maximum increases by the same.
Divine sorcerers and draconic sorcerers have a connection with powerful forces, but that only explains why they begin with "Hero" level attributes and talents. Developing those powers is the process of leveling.
Comic book superheros and literary demi-gods are inherently broken and only make sense when confined to a prescribed narrative. If a group wants to play characters at those power levels, just disregard whichever rules don't make sense.
There really is no mechanical cap to attributes, the game mechanics are simply designed in a way to strongly discourage stat inflation unless the DM explicitly allows it.
It's actually very easy to start with over 20 in a stat. Simply agree to do so with your table. Use a "High Fantasy" point buy system.
Start at a higher level. There is no obligation to start at level 1. Previous levels can be baked into a backstory.
The purpose of designing game mechanics the way they do is so that they can manage difficulty ratings in combat and in social encounters. If you start at a higher level, you just fight harder monsters.
Previous editions had "Level Adjustments" for playing non-standard races, so similarly you can just say that your character is starting at a higher level because they simply possess greater potential.
If you want to increase strength beyond the strength modifier, look into races that have the "Powerful Build" feature. Increasing a player's "effective size" doubles their carrying capacity out right. Use Enhance Ability to double it again. Ad infinitum. Anything that doesn't fit thematically can be reflavored until it does.
The compendium of rules is a set of guidelines for consistant play. Growing beyond them requires nothing more than the choice to do so and a willing DM.
It's actually very easy to start with over 20 in a stat. Simply agree to do so with your table. Use a "High Fantasy" point buy system. (1)
Start at a higher level. There is no obligation to start at level 1. Previous levels can be baked into a backstory. (2)
The purpose of designing game mechanics the way they do is so that they can manage difficulty ratings in combat and in social encounters. If you start at a higher level, you just fight harder monsters. (3)
Previous editions had "Level Adjustments" for playing non-standard races, so similarly you can just say that your character is starting at a higher level because they simply possess greater potential. (4)
If you want to increase strength beyond the strength modifier, look into races that have the "Powerful Build" feature. Increasing a player's "effective size" doubles their carrying capacity out right. Use Enhance Ability to double it again. Ad infinitum. Anything that doesn't fit thematically can be reflavored until it does. (5)
The compendium of rules is a set of guidelines for consistant play. Growing beyond them requires nothing more than the choice to do so and a willing DM. (6)
So homebrew? The ability score cap of 20 cap still applies unless your table's version of "point-buy" doesn't have a cap, and that would be homebrew.
So? Again, the ability score cap still applies, or you're playing homebrew.
Yes, and again what's your point?
Uhhh.... homebrew. This is 5e, not previous editions.
Yes, there are ways to increase your carrying capacity, and push/drag/lift beyond just having a higher Strength Ability Score.
Yes, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum... how things function within the compendium of rules is the name-of-the-game here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So homebrew? The ability score cap of 20 cap still applies unless your table's version of "point-buy" doesn't have a cap, and that would be homebrew.
So? Again, the ability score cap still applies, or you're playing homebrew.
Yes, and again what's your point?
Uhhh.... homebrew. This is 5e, not previous editions.
Yes, there are ways to increase your carrying capacity, and push/drag/lift beyond just having a higher Strength Ability Score.
Yes, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum... how things function within the compendium of rules is the name-of-the-game here.
That post is specifically in response to Kotath's desire to accommodate characters that are well outside of the rules.
(1) No. Technically with the availability of the Manuals which explicitly increase the cap, a DM can arbitrarily choose the enhancement that was available to the players "before" the game starts. It's up to DM discretion, but that is true for most things. A "High Fantasy Point-Buy" is technically homebrew, but it serves as a tool for already established in-game features.
(2) Per (1), there are official methods of exceeding the level cap. Apply as needed.
(3) The point is, if Kotath wants to start with a high level character, then doing so is an option, but playing as a 1st level character with 30+ attributes is going to make designing encounters difficult.
(4) It's not "homebrew", it's reflavoring of official rules to achieve play goals. Starting at a higher levels is done, but it doesn't need to mean that you've spent your backstory adventuring.
(5) ---
(6) Kotath's specific prompt is explicitly outside of the scope of "Rules & Mechanics". I could have just said "No. Don't even try.", but that helps no one.
So homebrew? The ability score cap of 20 cap still applies unless your table's version of "point-buy" doesn't have a cap, and that would be homebrew.
So? Again, the ability score cap still applies, or you're playing homebrew.
Yes, and again what's your point?
Uhhh.... homebrew. This is 5e, not previous editions.
Yes, there are ways to increase your carrying capacity, and push/drag/lift beyond just having a higher Strength Ability Score.
Yes, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum... how things function within the compendium of rules is the name-of-the-game here.
That post is specifically in response to Kotath's desire to accommodate characters that are well outside of the rules.
(1) No. Technically with the availability of the Manuals which explicitly increase the cap, a DM can arbitrarily choose the enhancement that was available to the players "before" the game starts. It's up to DM discretion, but that is true for most things. A "High Fantasy Point-Buy" is technically homebrew, but it serves as a tool for already established in-game features. (1)
(2) Per (1), there are official methods of exceeding the level cap. Apply as needed. (2)
(4) It's not "homebrew", it's reflavoring of official rules to achieve play goals. Starting at a higher levels is done, but it doesn't need to mean that you've spent your backstory adventuring. (3)
"House Rules"
Nobody has denied that there are official methods for exceeding the ability score cap. What I take issue with is that you're using the existence of such methods, which are intended to be rewards for actual play, as justification for ignoring the cap. That doesn't fly. What you and your DM (or you as DM) do for your own campaigns is irrelevant to the baseline functionality of the system itself.
Starting a campaign with characters that are higher than level 1 is not a problem, and you can absolutely use any of the ASIs that character has accumulated (per whatever their class level(s) are) on raising ability scores... up to 20.
Starting a campaign at higher levels has no impact on what the maximum ability score is. If you are saying a character should have a higher maximum ability score, because they are starting at a higher character level, that is in fact homebrew. Previous editions have no impact on 5e rules, and "level adjustments" don't exist in this edition. Playable races, even the monstrous ones, are all balanced around the system of 5e. Playing races that haven't been published, or adjustments to races that have been published, is definitively homebrew.
If all you're talking about is starting a higher level campaign with a DM that is granting you stat books like Tome of Leadership and Influence to start, then reference this from the DMG:
Starting at Higher Level
Experienced players familiar with the capabilities of the character classes and impatient for more significant adventures might welcome the idea of starting a campaign with characters above 1st level. Creating a higher-level character uses the same character creation steps outlined in the Player’s Handbook. Such a character has more hit points, class features, and spells, and probably starts with better equipment.
Starting equipment for characters above 1st level is entirely at your discretion, since you give out treasure at your own pace. That said, you can use the Starting Equipment table as a guide.
Starting Equipment
Character Level
Low Magic Campaign
Standard Campaign
High Magic Campaign
1st–4th
Normal starting equipment
Normal starting equipment
Normal starting equipment
5th–10th
500 gp plus 1d10 × 25 gp, normal starting equipment
500 gp plus 1d10 × 25 gp, normal starting equipment
500 gp plus 1d10 × 25 gp, one uncommon magic item, normal starting equipment
11th–16th
5,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, one uncommon magic item, normal starting equipment
5,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, two uncommon magic items, normal starting equipment
5,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, three uncommon magic items, one rare item, normal starting equipment
17th–20th
20,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, two uncommon magic items, normal starting equipment
20,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, two uncommon magic items, one rare item, normal starting equipment
20,000 gp plus 1d10 × 250 gp, three uncommon magic items, two rare items, one very rare item, normal starting equipment
Those stat books are very rare, and the standard guideline for a High Magic campaign shows that would be reasonable for level 17+ characters. You'd get one of them by the guidelines.
Can a DM hand out as many of these as they'd like? Yes, as that's always true... a DM can always run their (non-AL) games however they want, and give whatever rewards they want whenever they want. None of that changes how the baseline system works.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
a DM can always run their (non-AL) games however they want, and give whatever rewards they want whenever they want. None of that changes how the baseline system works.
And that is precisely my point. The "baseline system" explicitly allows for flexibility. Adventurer's League imposes separate and additional rules on top of that flexible baseline.
Starting equipment for characters above 1st level is entirely at your discretion, since you give out treasure at your own pace. That said, you can use the Starting Equipment table as a guide.
The recommended starting level, equipment, rewards, etc are not prescribed by the "baseline system", they are suggested.
I do not personally recommend strongly deviating from the guidelines offered by WoTC, but it is incorrect to suggest that doing so is not entirely within the official rules. That people predominantly restrict themselves to those suggestions defines "normal", not what constitutes "homebrew".
You are entirely missing the point... the baseline system does not allow for the cap to be ignored, which is what you are suggesting. What a DM does in their campaign does not constitute a general rule for the system itself.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And you are entirely missing my point. The baseline system includes a legitimate mechanism to bypass the basic attribute cap.
The Tome of Leadership and Influence directly increases the cap from 20-->22-->24-->26 ad infinitum. The only limiting factor is how and when the DM chooses to distribute these Very Rare resources.
Whether or not the DM should grant these in surplus is entirely independent of whether or not they are can, "within the general rules for the system itself".
This does not require any new "rules, features, spells, classes, abilities, etc." Nothing mechanical has been changed or added to the basic system to enable this atypical implementation.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As a rule, it is practically impossible for a standard build to exceed an Ability score of 20 at the moment of character creation (exceptions do exist, such as a lvl 20 barbarian). There are recommendations in the DMG for magic items that could feasibly increase this (the aforementioned tomes granted as starting equipment for a high-level campaign), but keep in mind that those are recommendations , not rules, and anyway are at the discretion of the DM, so they aren't really RAW for character creation purposes.
Theoretically, with enough tomes (or enough time) you could have an unlimited cap on an ability score, but again, nothing in the rules guarantees that that happens (and any DM with any sense of how to run the game wouldn't let it happen.
Personally, I would argue that you only benefit from an individual kind of tome once, as after that you would be re-reading the same thing, but that (I am aware) is not a RAW ruling, just one that makes sense to me as a DM.
Sigred, as per our conversation in the other thread, this will be my last response to you in this thread:
My point is, and has always been, "Your DM has the ability and tools to explore non-traditional campaigns". Non-traditional does not equate to homebrew any more than any other game does. Unless you are all reading from a script, every game is improvised.
I have never suggested that a player could, or should, expect to have access to these variations prior to discussing it with their group.
Sure, there are plenty of examples of fictional characters who break the mold by being imbued with truly super-human traits, but that's anything but "basic", and entirely outside the scope of a game like D&D to even attempt to balance. Those types of people are literally "Epic", which typically translates to character level 20+.
The soft cap is a "soft" cap for a reason and can absolutely be surpassed in many different ways:
They could literally be gifted power by the gods (i.e. DM can set the attributes however they want.)
They could obtain powerful artifacts (i.e. Belt of Storm Giant Strength would grant STR 29)
They could craft powerful artifacts.
Etc.
If you want a RAW way to take your power level "Over 9000", convince the DM to give you access to an unlimited supply of Magical Tomes. Instant +2, and your maximum increases by the same.
Divine sorcerers and draconic sorcerers have a connection with powerful forces, but that only explains why they begin with "Hero" level attributes and talents. Developing those powers is the process of leveling.
Comic book superheros and literary demi-gods are inherently broken and only make sense when confined to a prescribed narrative. If a group wants to play characters at those power levels, just disregard whichever rules don't make sense.
There really is no mechanical cap to attributes, the game mechanics are simply designed in a way to strongly discourage stat inflation unless the DM explicitly allows it.
It's actually very easy to start with over 20 in a stat. Simply agree to do so with your table. Use a "High Fantasy" point buy system.
Start at a higher level. There is no obligation to start at level 1. Previous levels can be baked into a backstory.
The purpose of designing game mechanics the way they do is so that they can manage difficulty ratings in combat and in social encounters. If you start at a higher level, you just fight harder monsters.
Previous editions had "Level Adjustments" for playing non-standard races, so similarly you can just say that your character is starting at a higher level because they simply possess greater potential.
If you want to increase strength beyond the strength modifier, look into races that have the "Powerful Build" feature. Increasing a player's "effective size" doubles their carrying capacity out right. Use Enhance Ability to double it again. Ad infinitum. Anything that doesn't fit thematically can be reflavored until it does.
The compendium of rules is a set of guidelines for consistant play. Growing beyond them requires nothing more than the choice to do so and a willing DM.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That post is specifically in response to Kotath's desire to accommodate characters that are well outside of the rules.
(1) No. Technically with the availability of the Manuals which explicitly increase the cap, a DM can arbitrarily choose the enhancement that was available to the players "before" the game starts. It's up to DM discretion, but that is true for most things. A "High Fantasy Point-Buy" is technically homebrew, but it serves as a tool for already established in-game features.
(2) Per (1), there are official methods of exceeding the level cap. Apply as needed.
(3) The point is, if Kotath wants to start with a high level character, then doing so is an option, but playing as a 1st level character with 30+ attributes is going to make designing encounters difficult.
(4) It's not "homebrew", it's reflavoring of official rules to achieve play goals. Starting at a higher levels is done, but it doesn't need to mean that you've spent your backstory adventuring.
(5) ---
(6) Kotath's specific prompt is explicitly outside of the scope of "Rules & Mechanics". I could have just said "No. Don't even try.", but that helps no one.
If all you're talking about is starting a higher level campaign with a DM that is granting you stat books like Tome of Leadership and Influence to start, then reference this from the DMG:
Those stat books are very rare, and the standard guideline for a High Magic campaign shows that would be reasonable for level 17+ characters. You'd get one of them by the guidelines.
Can a DM hand out as many of these as they'd like? Yes, as that's always true... a DM can always run their (non-AL) games however they want, and give whatever rewards they want whenever they want. None of that changes how the baseline system works.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And that is precisely my point. The "baseline system" explicitly allows for flexibility. Adventurer's League imposes separate and additional rules on top of that flexible baseline.
Starting equipment for characters above 1st level is entirely at your discretion, since you give out treasure at your own pace. That said, you can use the Starting Equipment table as a guide.
The recommended starting level, equipment, rewards, etc are not prescribed by the "baseline system", they are suggested.
I do not personally recommend strongly deviating from the guidelines offered by WoTC, but it is incorrect to suggest that doing so is not entirely within the official rules. That people predominantly restrict themselves to those suggestions defines "normal", not what constitutes "homebrew".
You are entirely missing the point... the baseline system does not allow for the cap to be ignored, which is what you are suggesting. What a DM does in their campaign does not constitute a general rule for the system itself.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And you are entirely missing my point. The baseline system includes a legitimate mechanism to bypass the basic attribute cap.
The Tome of Leadership and Influence directly increases the cap from 20-->22-->24-->26 ad infinitum. The only limiting factor is how and when the DM chooses to distribute these Very Rare resources.
Whether or not the DM should grant these in surplus is entirely independent of whether or not they are can, "within the general rules for the system itself".
This does not require any new "rules, features, spells, classes, abilities, etc." Nothing mechanical has been changed or added to the basic system to enable this atypical implementation.
"I can raise my ability score cap with a specific item that a DM might give me" does not lead to "Therefore, I can just ignore the ability score cap".
If your DM gives you those items, that's fine. If your DM does not give you those items, too-*******-bad.
If you want to play a game ignoring the ability score cap, that's fine, but you are playing a homebrew game.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As a rule, it is practically impossible for a standard build to exceed an Ability score of 20 at the moment of character creation (exceptions do exist, such as a lvl 20 barbarian). There are recommendations in the DMG for magic items that could feasibly increase this (the aforementioned tomes granted as starting equipment for a high-level campaign), but keep in mind that those are recommendations , not rules, and anyway are at the discretion of the DM, so they aren't really RAW for character creation purposes.
Theoretically, with enough tomes (or enough time) you could have an unlimited cap on an ability score, but again, nothing in the rules guarantees that that happens (and any DM with any sense of how to run the game wouldn't let it happen.
Personally, I would argue that you only benefit from an individual kind of tome once, as after that you would be re-reading the same thing, but that (I am aware) is not a RAW ruling, just one that makes sense to me as a DM.
Sigred, as per our conversation in the other thread, this will be my last response to you in this thread:
My point is, and has always been, "Your DM has the ability and tools to explore non-traditional campaigns". Non-traditional does not equate to homebrew any more than any other game does. Unless you are all reading from a script, every game is improvised.
I have never suggested that a player could, or should, expect to have access to these variations prior to discussing it with their group.