l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
Not sure on the RAW but I would rule you could kill the undead, then restore them to their original life (assuming the timeframe and body requirements are met). True Res and Wish could bypass that and turn them straight from undead into living
l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
True Resurrection and Wish are the only options. Undead is a creature type, not really a condition. When something becomes an Undead, they are an Undead until something explicitly changes that, and an Undead that has been killed (again) is still an Undead.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
True Resurrection and Wish are the only options. Undead is a creature type, not really a condition. When something becomes an Undead, they are an Undead until something explicitly changes that, and an Undead that has been killed (again) is still an Undead.
There's a little scenario in CoS that disputes this idea of remaining an undead unconditionally. Keep in mind, PCs should be fairly low level, like 3rd level for a party of 6 to handle Doru as a medium threat.
The shape is Doru, a vampire spawn sent by Strahd to torment Donavich and cast down the church. Doru is starved for blood and brave enough to attack a lone character. If the characters approach as a group, he does his best to avoid them while hissing, “I can smell your blood!” If they cut off his escape, he lunges forth and attacks.
If the characters restrain Doru and either promise him blood or threaten to destroy him, or if they kill him and then raise him from the dead, he recounts the events that led to his downfall (see area E5f).
That's specific to both an adventure, and an NPC. It doesn't change the general rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
True Resurrection and Wish are the only options. Undead is a creature type, not really a condition. When something becomes an Undead, they are an Undead until something explicitly changes that, and an Undead that has been killed (again) is still an Undead.
Isn't a dead body technically an object though (at least I think JC has said so)? Using that logic: Humanoid > dies > Corpse (Object) > animated > Undead > killed > Corpse (object) > raised > Humanoid. With a clear distinction between types, I don't see why an undead has to stay an undead once it is raised (if you can find definitive RAW saying that, please share)
I think this was debated similarly with the Spell Revivify, which does not specify whether or not it works on undead (it says "a creature that has recently died").
l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
True Resurrection and Wish are the only options. Undead is a creature type, not really a condition. When something becomes an Undead, they are an Undead until something explicitly changes that, and an Undead that has been killed (again) is still an Undead.
Isn't a dead body technically an object though (at least I think JC has said so)? Using that logic: Humanoid > dies > Corpse (Object) > animated > Undead > killed > Corpse (object) > raised > Humanoid. With a clear distinction between types, I don't see why an undead has to stay an undead once it is raised (if you can find definitive RAW saying that, please share)
I think this was debated similarly with the Spell Revivify, which does not specify whether or not it works on undead (it says "a creature that has recently died").
It does not work, nor does anything short of TR & Wish.
[edit] For clarity: Revivifywill revive an undead creature... as an undead. Raise Dead & Resurrection have no effect at all on a dead undead.
You really don't want to become an undead at all, and this is why Gentle Repose & other spells/features preventing a creature from becoming undead are important.
[edit 2] For the sake of completeness, since this is an interesting topic, let's flesh-out (shoot me) the logic a bit. Revivify/Raise Dead/Resurrection do not change the creature type of the target upon a (successful) casting. Contrarily, spells which make undead, such as Animate Deaddo change the creature type.
Humanoid > dies > Humanoid Corpse (object) > animated > Undead > dies > Undead Corpse (object)
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The very fact that True Resurrection specifies that it can return a creature that was undead to a non-undead state and the others don't mean that the others... uhh... don't.
A good way of approaching this is from a narrative perspective. What is being targeted by resurrection spells is the soul of the creature, and the body, when utilized, is just a conduit:
In the case of a transformed undead, like a lich, that person has become undead, and that is their authentic self. Thus, resurrecting them brings them back as they are now. [Undead Body, Undead Soul]
In the case of an animated undead, like a zombie, the soul of the original host has been shunted out by necromantic energy. A freshly dead zombie now only contains the fading glow of that animating force. [Humanoid Body?, Undead Soul]
In the case of a corrupted undead, like a vampire spawn, the soul of the original person is still present, but their body has been perverted. [Undead Body, Humanoid Soul]
The options for resurrection are:
Revivify (1 minute) — Restores life to touched creature; Does not directly commune with a soul.
Raise Dead (10 Days) — All vital organs must be present; Calls the soul to a healed body
Reincarnate (10 Days) — A piece of the body must be present; Calls the soul to a new body.
Resurrection (100 Years) — A piece* of the body must be present; Calls soul to a fully restored body.
True Resurrection (200 Years) — Only a name is needed; Calls the soul to a "purified" body.
Wish (DM Discrection) — Nothing is needed; Anything is possible; Don't push your luck.
*Resurrection doesn't specifically say that only a "piece" is needed, but it explicitly restores any missing body parts without restriction, which leaves it open to very generous interpretation.
Referring back to the Sage Advice, Jeremy Crawford has said that Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead, (presumably because "alive" is not its default state), but didn't technically address the issue of a freshly reanimated humanoid for spells other than revivify.
So, in the absence of an explicit ruling, I would say that while Revivify would not work to restore life to someone who was killed and reanimated, anything stronger probably could, so long as all other requirements are met. (e.g. If a zombie is attacked and loses its heart or lungs, then Raise Dead can not be used to revive a humanoid, even though the zombie could otherwise survive without those organs.)
~~~
Since this leads to the assumption that a person's soul remains within their body for at least 1 minute, it could be fun to homebrew a contested check for anyone who is being reanimated within 1 minute of their demise.
The player could roll a Charisma saving throw at disadvantage against 10 + Spell Level. (Since dying is a traumatizing event.)
What is being targeted by resurrection spells is the soul of the creature, and the body, when utilized, is just a conduit:
[snip]
Referring back to the Sage Advice, Jeremy Crawford has said that Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead, (presumably because "alive" is not its default state), but didn't technically address the issue of a freshly reanimated humanoid for spells other than revivify.
No, the body is not just a "conduit"... the body is absolutely the target of the spell. If a body was merely a material component then it wouldn't matter if you have their body, nor would it matter what condition their body is in. A corpse is the target, and the effect is drawing a soul back to it.
Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead because Undead is a creature type. Undead are considered living creatures. The spells function as written and intended.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No, the body is not just a "conduit"... the body is absolutely the target of the spell. If a body was merely a material component then it wouldn't matter if you have their body, nor would it matter what condition their body is in. A corpse is the target, and the effect is drawing a soul back to it. (1)
Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead because Undead is a creature type. Undead are considered living creatures. The spells function as written and intended. (2)
(1) My use of the term "conduit" is not equivalent to a mere "material component". The implications of Soul/Body duality is obviously more complicated than the rules were written to address in detail. Higher level resurrection spells can use the body, but don't need one.
To the point, True Resurrection has a range of Touch, despite the description also including "The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists". If the body were necessarily the target of "Touch", then this provision wouldn't make sense. The body facilitates the resurrection, but isn't itself the creature being targeted.
(2) Yes, the spell works as written and intended, but that doesn't address the OP's question about someone who died and was reanimated. The fallen party member themself isn't necessarily undead.
(?) Yes, the Undead exclusion is specifically included in the description of Raise Dead and is RAW, but doesn't explain RAI, which is needed for clarifying ambiguity.
No, the body is not just a "conduit"... the body is absolutely the target of the spell. If a body was merely a material component then it wouldn't matter if you have their body, nor would it matter what condition their body is in. A corpse is the target, and the effect is drawing a soul back to it. (1)
Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead because Undead is a creature type. Undead are considered living creatures. The spells function as written and intended. (2)
(1) My use of the term "conduit" is not equivalent to a mere "material component". The implications of Soul/Body duality is obviously more complicated than the rules were written to address in detail. Higher level resurrection spells can use the body, but don't need one.
To the point, True Resurrection has a range of Touch, despite the description also including "The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists". If the body were necessarily the target of "Touch", then this provision wouldn't make sense. The body facilitates the resurrection, but isn't itself the creature being targeted.
(2) Yes, the spell works as written and intended, but that doesn't address the OP's question about someone who died and was reanimated. The fallen party member themself isn't necessarily undead.
(?) Yes, the Undead exclusion is specifically included in the description of Raise Dead and is RAW, but doesn't explain RAI, which is needed for clarifying ambiguity.
Yes, they very explicitly are an undead creature, and they do not cease to be an undead creature after being killed (again). Did you not actually read the Sage Advice, or even the OP's post? Because they spell it out quite clearly... the PC was killed, and reanimated as a Zombie... an Undead creature. All spells/abilities/items that turn a corpse into an Undead creature permanently change that creature's type to "Undead". A non-living Undead is still Undead.
The specific rules of True Resurrectiondo not apply to anything other than that spell, nor do they establish any general rules. The target is touch because touching the body is the default usage of the spell. It then says you can create a new body by speaking the creature's name. That is a specific usage of the specific spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yes, they very explicitly are an undead creature, and they do not cease to be an undead creature after being killed (again). Did you not actually read the Sage Advice, or even the OP's post? Because they spell it out quite clearly...
You are welcome to believe that, but it really isn't clear, and the consequences of your interpretation would be very significant.
If a zombie, or greater undead, continued to be considered an "undead creature" after it died again, then spells like Regenerate would still apply and you could continue to revive a "killed" undead indefinitely until it was "destroyed".
In fact, it opens up enough loopholes, that it could end up causing a lot of problems.
Edit: Aura of Vitality is a third level spell that would let a Paladin necromancer revive 10 "undead creatures", as it does not exclude undead from its healing ability.
A dead creature is an object. But there is still a difference between a dead Humanoid and a dead Undead.
The interesting implication here is that it would mean Animate Dead would not work on a dead Zombie because it is no longer Humanoid.
Fortunately, there is another Sage Advice to address this.
"Undead minions can receive temporary hp and can spend HD during a short rest. And animate dead can bring them back!"
-Jeremy Crawford
Ergo, either the entry for Animate Dead is wrong, or Undead do not retain their creature type when slain. (Though, enough time has passed that errata may have come into play.)
l read that unless you use a wish or true res,a undead cant be returned to life. However,what exactly counts? like l can guess that you cant use revivify to turn a lich into a normal guy,but what about if you are attacked by a person that was just turned into a zombie and kill it? Could you bring that back to a living body? or does anyone effected by animate dead/create undead become unable to be revived?
Not sure on the RAW but I would rule you could kill the undead, then restore them to their original life (assuming the timeframe and body requirements are met). True Res and Wish could bypass that and turn them straight from undead into living
True Resurrection and Wish are the only options. Undead is a creature type, not really a condition. When something becomes an Undead, they are an Undead until something explicitly changes that, and an Undead that has been killed (again) is still an Undead.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
There's a little scenario in CoS that disputes this idea of remaining an undead unconditionally. Keep in mind, PCs should be fairly low level, like 3rd level for a party of 6 to handle Doru as a medium threat.
The shape is Doru, a vampire spawn sent by Strahd to torment Donavich and cast down the church. Doru is starved for blood and brave enough to attack a lone character. If the characters approach as a group, he does his best to avoid them while hissing, “I can smell your blood!” If they cut off his escape, he lunges forth and attacks.
If the characters restrain Doru and either promise him blood or threaten to destroy him, or if they kill him and then raise him from the dead, he recounts the events that led to his downfall (see area E5f).
That's specific to both an adventure, and an NPC. It doesn't change the general rule.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you say so.
Isn't a dead body technically an object though (at least I think JC has said so)? Using that logic: Humanoid > dies > Corpse (Object) > animated > Undead > killed > Corpse (object) > raised > Humanoid. With a clear distinction between types, I don't see why an undead has to stay an undead once it is raised (if you can find definitive RAW saying that, please share)
I think this was debated similarly with the Spell Revivify, which does not specify whether or not it works on undead (it says "a creature that has recently died").
It does not work, nor does anything short of TR & Wish.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/11/can-i-revify-a-killed-zombie/
[edit] For clarity: Revivify will revive an undead creature... as an undead. Raise Dead & Resurrection have no effect at all on a dead undead.
You really don't want to become an undead at all, and this is why Gentle Repose & other spells/features preventing a creature from becoming undead are important.
[edit 2] For the sake of completeness, since this is an interesting topic, let's flesh-out (shoot me) the logic a bit. Revivify/Raise Dead/Resurrection do not change the creature type of the target upon a (successful) casting. Contrarily, spells which make undead, such as Animate Dead do change the creature type.
Humanoid > dies > Humanoid Corpse (object) > animated > Undead > dies > Undead Corpse (object)
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The very fact that True Resurrection specifies that it can return a creature that was undead to a non-undead state and the others don't mean that the others... uhh... don't.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Point taken, thanks for the additional insight from JC, Sigred
A good way of approaching this is from a narrative perspective. What is being targeted by resurrection spells is the soul of the creature, and the body, when utilized, is just a conduit:
In the case of a transformed undead, like a lich, that person has become undead, and that is their authentic self. Thus, resurrecting them brings them back as they are now.
[Undead Body, Undead Soul]
In the case of an animated undead, like a zombie, the soul of the original host has been shunted out by necromantic energy. A freshly dead zombie now only contains the fading glow of that animating force.
[Humanoid Body?, Undead Soul]
In the case of a corrupted undead, like a vampire spawn, the soul of the original person is still present, but their body has been perverted.
[Undead Body, Humanoid Soul]
The options for resurrection are:
Revivify (1 minute) — Restores life to touched creature; Does not directly commune with a soul.
Raise Dead (10 Days) — All vital organs must be present; Calls the soul to a healed body
Reincarnate (10 Days) — A piece of the body must be present; Calls the soul to a new body.
Resurrection (100 Years) — A piece* of the body must be present; Calls soul to a fully restored body.
True Resurrection (200 Years) — Only a name is needed; Calls the soul to a "purified" body.
Wish (DM Discrection) — Nothing is needed; Anything is possible; Don't push your luck.
*Resurrection doesn't specifically say that only a "piece" is needed, but it explicitly restores any missing body parts without restriction, which leaves it open to very generous interpretation.
Referring back to the Sage Advice, Jeremy Crawford has said that Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead, (presumably because "alive" is not its default state), but didn't technically address the issue of a freshly reanimated humanoid for spells other than revivify.
So, in the absence of an explicit ruling, I would say that while Revivify would not work to restore life to someone who was killed and reanimated, anything stronger probably could, so long as all other requirements are met. (e.g. If a zombie is attacked and loses its heart or lungs, then Raise Dead can not be used to revive a humanoid, even though the zombie could otherwise survive without those organs.)
~~~
Since this leads to the assumption that a person's soul remains within their body for at least 1 minute, it could be fun to homebrew a contested check for anyone who is being reanimated within 1 minute of their demise.
The player could roll a Charisma saving throw at disadvantage against 10 + Spell Level. (Since dying is a traumatizing event.)
No, the body is not just a "conduit"... the body is absolutely the target of the spell. If a body was merely a material component then it wouldn't matter if you have their body, nor would it matter what condition their body is in. A corpse is the target, and the effect is drawing a soul back to it.
Raise Dead doesn't work on Undead because Undead is a creature type. Undead are considered living creatures. The spells function as written and intended.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Is the corpse of an undead creature still an undead creature?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
(1) My use of the term "conduit" is not equivalent to a mere "material component". The implications of Soul/Body duality is obviously more complicated than the rules were written to address in detail. Higher level resurrection spells can use the body, but don't need one.
To the point, True Resurrection has a range of Touch, despite the description also including "The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists". If the body were necessarily the target of "Touch", then this provision wouldn't make sense. The body facilitates the resurrection, but isn't itself the creature being targeted.
(2) Yes, the spell works as written and intended, but that doesn't address the OP's question about someone who died and was reanimated. The fallen party member themself isn't necessarily undead.
(?) Yes, the Undead exclusion is specifically included in the description of Raise Dead and is RAW, but doesn't explain RAI, which is needed for clarifying ambiguity.
No, a corpse is considered an object.
Sage Advice
It appears the sage advice you linked explicitly does not address my question.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, they very explicitly are an undead creature, and they do not cease to be an undead creature after being killed (again). Did you not actually read the Sage Advice, or even the OP's post? Because they spell it out quite clearly... the PC was killed, and reanimated as a Zombie... an Undead creature. All spells/abilities/items that turn a corpse into an Undead creature permanently change that creature's type to "Undead". A non-living Undead is still Undead.
The specific rules of True Resurrection do not apply to anything other than that spell, nor do they establish any general rules. The target is touch because touching the body is the default usage of the spell. It then says you can create a new body by speaking the creature's name. That is a specific usage of the specific spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Ah, yeah. The use of "corpse" to describe the physical aspect of "anything which was once alive" complicates the semantics.
The body of anything that "dies" ceases to be a creature, unless specifically stated otherwise.
I understand "non-undead corpse" to mean a dead body that isn't actively wandering around searching for brains.
You are welcome to believe that, but it really isn't clear, and the consequences of your interpretation would be very significant.
If a zombie, or greater undead, continued to be considered an "undead creature" after it died again, then spells like Regenerate would still apply and you could continue to revive a "killed" undead indefinitely until it was "destroyed".
In fact, it opens up enough loopholes, that it could end up causing a lot of problems.
Edit: Aura of Vitality is a third level spell that would let a Paladin necromancer revive 10 "undead creatures", as it does not exclude undead from its healing ability.
A dead creature is an object. But there is still a difference between a dead Humanoid and a dead Undead.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The interesting implication here is that it would mean Animate Dead would not work on a dead Zombie because it is no longer Humanoid.
Fortunately, there is another Sage Advice to address this.
Ergo, either the entry for Animate Dead is wrong, or Undead do not retain their creature type when slain. (Though, enough time has passed that errata may have come into play.)