I know this is a huge oversimplification, but in my campaign if the characters want to travel between towns I use the times listed in the book as the time with snowshoes, and half that for dog sleds to make them worthwhile.
There is an assumption that traveling one direction is equal to the other, perhaps traveling from A to B is not equal to B to A in particular, because the GALE force winds coming around Kelvin's Cairn are in your face. I don't care if people want to make travel easy in this place, but it seems like taking a huge chunk out of the entire campaign. First, because the campaign is survival in a desert tundra. Second, because it isn't even normal conditions for the beasts of burden. I think part of where it makes a lot of sense for walking to be just as bad as other options is simply because of how much time goes into setting the sled and dogs up before you can start to move. Setting the sled up to travel a half mile, isn't going to save you much time in regards to the characters who just set out on snowshoes and don't really have anything else to worry about before they leave or once they arrive.
Some people really get stuck on the math of it. Use the times in the module for between towns, you are forgetting that they are for the quickest way for each location; there is only one actual road, and then some well-stomped snowy paths. That is what adjusts the times a bit. The overland speed doesn't change with mount types other than dogsleds, so if you think dogsleds travel times are bad, let the NPCs use them and have your heroic level PCs buy literally any other mount which uses the same mount rules no matter what they are. And, getting stuck on the math of it is pointless. The times are only relative if there is a real urgency to have something happen in 6 hours, instead of 7, or whatever.
I know this is a huge oversimplification, but in my campaign if the characters want to travel between towns I use the times listed in the book as the time with snowshoes, and half that for dog sleds to make them worthwhile.
The iditarod is about 938 miles (race tracks vary). The record in 1973 was 8 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, 13 seconds as per Wikipedia. They have required breaks. Total miles - 938/8.111 days = 115 miles per day. Speed is 938/196 hours give or take = 4.7 miles an hour.
Not that far from what D&D uses. But that is a record, not what you should expect for adventurers hauling a load.
The iditarod is about 938 miles (race tracks vary). The record in 1973 was 8 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, 13 seconds as per Wikipedia. They have required breaks. Total miles - 938/8.111 days = 115 miles per day. Speed is 938/196 hours give or take = 4.7 miles an hour.
Not that far from what D&D uses. But that is a record, not what you should expect for adventurers hauling a load.
The PH says a fast pace is 4 mph. You're assuming they run 4.792 mph for 24 hours straight, and for more than 8 straight days. That's just not happening. Even if we assume a generous 12-on, 12-off schedule, that's a pace of 9.583 mph. That's more than what the listed mounts can accomplish sprinting for an hour.
As for travel speed. The normal adventurer can travel at 3 mph on foot. So if a dog sled half's that, the sled is moving at 6 mph. Simple math.
Normally yes, but the travel times between towns given in the adventure imply that walking speed is halved, probably accounting for the snow. Using snowshoes brings it back up to normal walking speed.
Travel speeds are designed to include hours of rest. They do not merely do the math.mph
In real life, a small team designed to pull one person will have at least 4 dogs. Long races use 16 dogs. 20 mph is about the top speed. 10-14 mph is a normal pace. Each dog adds about 80 lbs to the weight pulled, but do not forget the sled weighs about 80 lbs minimum.
The 300 lb weight for a dog sled is WAY off. A real dog sled (made of wood, not high-tech carbon fiber) only weights 100 lbs. And that's the basket sled, used for carrying gear. (A racing sled weighs only half as much, probably uses high-tech materials). Perhaps they mean 300 lbs is the weight of the sled PLUS the driver in full gear?
That's for a modern dogsled. They've been in use for more than a thousand years, so whatever we think we know we don't.
In any case, the fact that a "sled dog...can pull 360 pounds" is just for the normal Push, Drag, or Lift from the Basic Rules & PHB. In truth, they can actually move a lot more. Just one sled dog can pull up to 900 pounds. Factoring in the weight of the sled, that's 600 pounds of driver, passenger, and supplies.
Not too shabby.
That's why I quoted the figure for a wooden dog sled, not one made with modern materials like aluminum, plastic or carbon fiber. Original Inuit dogsleds would actually have used a lot of antler and whalebone, because wood is very scarce in the Arctic, and those materials would probably be lighter then wood (because they are stronger). There is no reason for the Icewind wooden dog sled to weight 3 times what a real world wooden one weighs. Again, I suspect the mistake was in combining the weight of an empty sled with the weight of a driver (in heavy clothing) which together could approach 300 pounds, or else they are using the weight of a sled fully laden with freight.
The 300 lb weight for a dog sled is WAY off. A real dog sled (made of wood, not high-tech carbon fiber) only weights 100 lbs. And that's the basket sled, used for carrying gear. (A racing sled weighs only half as much, probably uses high-tech materials). Perhaps they mean 300 lbs is the weight of the sled PLUS the driver in full gear?
That's for a modern dogsled. They've been in use for more than a thousand years, so whatever we think we know we don't.
In any case, the fact that a "sled dog...can pull 360 pounds" is just for the normal Push, Drag, or Lift from the Basic Rules & PHB. In truth, they can actually move a lot more. Just one sled dog can pull up to 900 pounds. Factoring in the weight of the sled, that's 600 pounds of driver, passenger, and supplies.
Not too shabby.
That's why I quoted the figure for a wooden dog sled, not one made with modern materials like aluminum, plastic or carbon fiber. Original Inuit dogsleds would actually have used a lot of antler and whalebone, because wood is very scarce in the Arctic, and those materials would probably be lighter then wood (because they are stronger). There is no reason for the Icewind wooden dog sled to weight 3 times what a real world wooden one weighs. Again, I suspect the mistake was in combining the weight of an empty sled with the weight of a driver (in heavy clothing) which together could approach 300 pounds, or else they are using the weight of a sled fully laden with freight.
Doesn't matter.
Everything is an abstraction. The increased weight of the sled might be an accurate reflection of its construction, or it could be an adjustment for the functionally supernatural terrain. The only things that do are travel time and carrying capacity, when they can be tracked at all. Arguing over what we think the statistics should be isn't helpful.
RotFM rules explicitly state that sled dogs can pull 360 lbs. Using the wolf stat block (Wolves in 5e are a little beefed up, BTW ) these are basically dire sled dogs. If they were regular dog sized sled dogs then I would expect them to be small creatures (~60 lbs and halve the carrying capacity) of strength 10. This gives us 15*10/2 = carrying capacity of 75lbs which would imply they can Pull 5*75= 375lbs. RAW = 360 lbs, so closer to the pulling capacity explicitly stated, maybe minus a little for the terrain.
A lot of criticism I've seen leveled at the module is regarding the way much of the content feels like it was hastily slapped together without much if any actual playtesting. The dogsled rules are one of them: you just don't move fast enough given the rate that the dragon can fly between towns.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A lot of criticism I've seen leveled at the module is regarding the way much of the content feels like it was hastily slapped together without much if any actual playtesting. The dogsled rules are one of them: you just don't move fast enough given the rate that the dragon can fly between towns.
That is one the story ethical check points. Where do you go?
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No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
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I have access, but I've never seen that. And I'm honestly going to take any facebook post with a healthy pinch of salt.
I know this is a huge oversimplification, but in my campaign if the characters want to travel between towns I use the times listed in the book as the time with snowshoes, and half that for dog sleds to make them worthwhile.
There is an assumption that traveling one direction is equal to the other, perhaps traveling from A to B is not equal to B to A in particular, because the GALE force winds coming around Kelvin's Cairn are in your face. I don't care if people want to make travel easy in this place, but it seems like taking a huge chunk out of the entire campaign. First, because the campaign is survival in a desert tundra. Second, because it isn't even normal conditions for the beasts of burden. I think part of where it makes a lot of sense for walking to be just as bad as other options is simply because of how much time goes into setting the sled and dogs up before you can start to move. Setting the sled up to travel a half mile, isn't going to save you much time in regards to the characters who just set out on snowshoes and don't really have anything else to worry about before they leave or once they arrive.
Some people really get stuck on the math of it. Use the times in the module for between towns, you are forgetting that they are for the quickest way for each location; there is only one actual road, and then some well-stomped snowy paths. That is what adjusts the times a bit. The overland speed doesn't change with mount types other than dogsleds, so if you think dogsleds travel times are bad, let the NPCs use them and have your heroic level PCs buy literally any other mount which uses the same mount rules no matter what they are.
And, getting stuck on the math of it is pointless. The times are only relative if there is a real urgency to have something happen in 6 hours, instead of 7, or whatever.
Seems like this is really the best answer.
The iditarod is about 938 miles (race tracks vary). The record in 1973 was 8 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, 13 seconds as per Wikipedia. They have required breaks. Total miles - 938/8.111 days = 115 miles per day. Speed is 938/196 hours give or take = 4.7 miles an hour.
Not that far from what D&D uses. But that is a record, not what you should expect for adventurers hauling a load.
The PH says a fast pace is 4 mph. You're assuming they run 4.792 mph for 24 hours straight, and for more than 8 straight days. That's just not happening. Even if we assume a generous 12-on, 12-off schedule, that's a pace of 9.583 mph. That's more than what the listed mounts can accomplish sprinting for an hour.
Travel speeds are designed to include hours of rest. They do not merely do the math.mph
In real life, a small team designed to pull one person will have at least 4 dogs. Long races use 16 dogs. 20 mph is about the top speed. 10-14 mph is a normal pace. Each dog adds about 80 lbs to the weight pulled, but do not forget the sled weighs about 80 lbs minimum.
The new 2024 DMG includes some ideas for Maximum Pace based on different types of terrain, with Arctic being one of them.
That's why I quoted the figure for a wooden dog sled, not one made with modern materials like aluminum, plastic or carbon fiber. Original Inuit dogsleds would actually have used a lot of antler and whalebone, because wood is very scarce in the Arctic, and those materials would probably be lighter then wood (because they are stronger). There is no reason for the Icewind wooden dog sled to weight 3 times what a real world wooden one weighs. Again, I suspect the mistake was in combining the weight of an empty sled with the weight of a driver (in heavy clothing) which together could approach 300 pounds, or else they are using the weight of a sled fully laden with freight.
Doesn't matter.
Everything is an abstraction. The increased weight of the sled might be an accurate reflection of its construction, or it could be an adjustment for the functionally supernatural terrain. The only things that do are travel time and carrying capacity, when they can be tracked at all. Arguing over what we think the statistics should be isn't helpful.
"A wolf str is 12. 12 *15 is 180. The 360 pds is over snow and ice. So they are upping the weight carry" (my underline)
Remember that in 5e, pack animals can pull twice what they can carry. The 360 lbs comes from that multiplier.
With oxen, mules and carts there is the wheel, here the snow/ice and sled runners suffice to lubricate the way.
"... they can actually move a lot more."
RotFM rules explicitly state that sled dogs can pull 360 lbs. Using the wolf stat block (Wolves in 5e are a little beefed up, BTW ) these are basically dire sled dogs. If they were regular dog sized sled dogs then I would expect them to be small creatures (~60 lbs and halve the carrying capacity) of strength 10. This gives us 15*10/2 = carrying capacity of 75lbs which would imply they can Pull 5*75= 375lbs. RAW = 360 lbs, so closer to the pulling capacity explicitly stated, maybe minus a little for the terrain.
A lot of criticism I've seen leveled at the module is regarding the way much of the content feels like it was hastily slapped together without much if any actual playtesting. The dogsled rules are one of them: you just don't move fast enough given the rate that the dragon can fly between towns.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That is one the story ethical check points. Where do you go?
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.