Anyone care to discuss why the sage advice compendium has made the two (druid and ranger) conjure spells such a thing to argue about? Specifically, why the “DM gets to decide” bit. Never as a DM, or have seen as a player, not let the player decide. Any thoughts? Love it? Hate it?
One thing I’ve done before to keep the power level down while still just letting the player choose what shows up and have their fun is to tell them that the animals are NPCs and they all follow the same command given by the PC as one. Like a school of fish or a herd. The conjured creatures all comply in as straightforward a method as possible.
We let the player pick but, if they pick something for a really specific/uncommon set of abilities, they have to make a Nature check as an action first to recall the info about a creature. This generally makes the summons fall into the tried and true category of a few often used beasts.
I’ve never really had any trouble with this spell or players using it. I haven’t seen it slow down turns, break combats, or make other players feel unneeded. Have all of you really seen these things? Not theoretically, but actually seen it?
When I played a shepherd druid (in DDAL) I made a deal with my DM that I could conjure what I wanted but I (the character, that was a little girl that could speak with animals) would always conjure bears. I had some Care Bears figures that I used for the minis. Everyone got so excited every time it happened. Also, I let each person at the table (up to 4) get to control one (DM permission of course) on their turn. It was a blast.
I’ve never really had any trouble with this spell or players using it. I haven’t seen it slow down turns, break combats, or make other players feel unneeded. Have all of you really seen these things? Not theoretically, but actually seen it?
Yes. With both spells. Druid summoning swarms of rats every fight trivialized most fights. Druid summoning pixies for polymorph triggered DM into curtailing that, which ended up with the druid's player threatening to quit. It's not just theory. =)
I'm always interested in hearing what a player is interested in specifically summoning, but the spell itself doesn't let the character address specific entities (it's not Gate). I as the DM have a much greater ability to know what creatures could reasonably answer the caster's call.
For example, in a recent adventure our druid wanted to summon some panthers, and I had to say "You're 70 degrees north, literally above the arctic circle, there are no panthers here, you can have wolves." It's important to me that I respect how the spell actually works.
Honestly, I attribute that sage advice to a lack of reading comprehension combined with a lack of willingness to do revisions.
A lack of reading comprehension because of the insistence that we read the spells, features, etc. as they are, while WOTC ignore the explicit wording. In this case, both Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey say explicitly "You summon", and neither one makes any mention of DM choice. They only say "The GM has the creatures' statistics.", which (at least to me) obviously means the summoned creatures have to ones the DM has statistics for, so the players cannot simply make them up on the spot.
A lack of willingness to do revisions because the staff at WOTC could easily go back and revise anything they have ruled on to make it explicitly comply with their rulings, but such revisions are rare to nonexistent, even though they would clear up so much confusion.
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
@Tim Indeed, rather than revising the monsters, or revising the spell, they (yet again) claim a contradictory intent, but still cannot be bothered to provide any evidence to support the claim (design notes, statement from confirmed author).
Honestly, I attribute that sage advice to a lack of reading comprehension combined with a lack of willingness to do revisions.
A lack of reading comprehension because of the insistence that we read the spells, features, etc. as they are, while WOTC ignore the explicit wording. In this case, both Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey say explicitly "You summon", and neither one makes any mention of DM choice. They only say "The GM has the creatures' statistics.", which (at least to me) obviously means the summoned creatures have to ones the DM has statistics for, so the players cannot simply make them up on the spot.
A lack of willingness to do revisions because the staff at WOTC could easily go back and revise anything they have ruled on to make it explicitly comply with their rulings, but such revisions are rare to nonexistent, even though they would clear up so much confusion.
*blink blink*
Are you seriously accusing anybody of reading comprehension, while insisting the spells say the player/character can choose the animal? Conjure Animalsexplicitly states your choice is "CR and number of beasts", out of a list. Conjure Fey doesn't say that, and I guess you could argue the player/character can choose, but it still doesn't say or imply they can. The fact that they both say "You summon" only implies that, "you summon". If the DM chooses, you're still the one summoning them. If it's rolled randomly, you're still the one summoning. If you choose, you're still the one summoning. So "You summon" does not imply "you choose".
Lack of reading comprehension, indeed... *eyeroll*
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
Chwingas are elementals, not beasts, so you need a level 5 spell (Conjure Elemental), and you can only summon 1. There are two problems, though: 1) which element is appropriate? Earth? Air? Water? Fire? It's not obvious. In fact, it might be none. Chwingas don't appear to be elementals of a specific element. 2) you still can't choose. You only choose which element, and only by targeting a 10' cube of the chosen element, so you're still limited by what's available for that choice.
I’ve never really had any trouble with this spell or players using it. I haven’t seen it slow down turns, break combats, or make other players feel unneeded. Have all of you really seen these things? Not theoretically, but actually seen it?
When I played a shepherd druid (in DDAL) I made a deal with my DM that I could conjure what I wanted but I (the character, that was a little girl that could speak with animals) would always conjure bears. I had some Care Bears figures that I used for the minis. Everyone got so excited every time it happened. Also, I let each person at the table (up to 4) get to control one (DM permission of course) on their turn. It was a blast.
Summoning a lot of creatures DOES really slow down combat but, we all really enjoy when our Druid summons and how they get used. I can see how they can trivialize some encounters, they have also saved us from potential TPKs, allowed us to employ fantastic combat strategies and generally, have a lot of fun. We have occasionally been given control of some creatures, especially if used as a mount or if the Druid was far away or otherwise occupied. Hell, one time we fire-bombed a battle field with Giant Bats.
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
Chwingas are elementals, not beasts, so you need a level 5 spell (Conjure Elemental), and you can only summon 1. There are two problems, though: 1) which element is appropriate? Earth? Air? Water? Fire? It's not obvious. In fact, it might be none. Chwingas don't appear to be elementals of a specific element. 2) you still can't choose. You only choose which element, and only by targeting a 10' cube of the chosen element, so you're still limited by what's available for that choice.
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
Chwingas are elementals, not beasts, so you need a level 5 spell (Conjure Elemental), and you can only summon 1. There are two problems, though: 1) which element is appropriate? Earth? Air? Water? Fire? It's not obvious. In fact, it might be none. Chwingas don't appear to be elementals of a specific element. 2) you still can't choose. You only choose which element, and only by targeting a 10' cube of the chosen element, so you're still limited by what's available for that choice.
Conjure Minor Elemental is a 4th level spell. That’s the one used to summon Chwingas.
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
Chwingas are elementals, not beasts, so you need a level 5 spell (Conjure Elemental), and you can only summon 1. There are two problems, though: 1) which element is appropriate? Earth? Air? Water? Fire? It's not obvious. In fact, it might be none. Chwingas don't appear to be elementals of a specific element. 2) you still can't choose. You only choose which element, and only by targeting a 10' cube of the chosen element, so you're still limited by what's available for that choice.
Conjure Minor Elemental is a 4th level spell. That’s the one used to summon Chwingas.
Conjure Minor Elementals also very clearly doesn't give the caster the option to select specific creatures to summon. You choose CR and number, that's it.
@Tonio Not once does either spell say the DM/GM chooses, in fact, the only mention of the GM is "The GM has the creature's statistics." Keep in mind, the GM also has the races', classes', etc. statistics, but the GM doesnt choose the PCs' race, class, etc. That line simply means that the creatures chosen must be ones that the GM has info for.
As for player choice, the spell says "Choose one of the following options for what appears:" Notice something missing in that sentence, it doesnt say who chooses. When that happens, you have to look at the previous sentences from closest to furthest until you find who is being told. In this case "You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range.", which means the spell is explicitly saying that the user chooses, and explicitly does not say the GM does. The problem you and so many others make, is you are confusing options with criteria. Criteria being the variables that limit a choice, while options are the possible choices. The spell explicitly lists 'options', not criteria, and each option includes its own criteria (type, number of creatures, max CR per creature).
For this reason, this spell really needs a revision for clarity, either 'You choose one of the following options for what specific beasts appear, according to the listed criteria', or 'You choose one of the following criteria for what appears, and your GM picks creatures appropriate to that choice'. Which revision to be applied depending on if you want to keep the original structure of the spell, or apply the claimed intent of GM choice.
In fact, such a revision kind of did happen, for the Spell-less Ranger UA 13th level feature 'Call Natural Allies', which is basically the spell Conjure Animals. You can read this feature from the source here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes
@Lyxen 1st, his title Lead Games Designer, but that does not mean he was the author of the spell (did your teachers author your schoolwork? have your bosses authored your written works?). 2nd, that is more than 5 years for WOTC to make a revision to the spell for crystal clarity, could they just not be bothered? 3rd, do not insult me by acting as if I lacked in researching.
4th, do not confuse RAW and claims of intent. RAW is the text itself, devoid of opinions, even those of the staff. SAC is claimed intent (from what I have seen, always presented without any evidence). To be clear, SAC is fundamentally the logical fallacy 'Appeal to Authority', because it is a way of saying "look at my job title, I was in charge, so I know what I am talking about", but dont forget, the same person that makes rulings which reach the SAC is the same person who gave contradictory opinions on Shield Master, which means the rulings he makes via Sage Advice are 'on the spot', not well considered. Of course, he also sometimes just regurgitates the text asked about, and sometimes makes jokes about the person asking (as if being disrespectful helps at all).
Anyone care to discuss why the sage advice compendium has made the two (druid and ranger) conjure spells such a thing to argue about? Specifically, why the “DM gets to decide” bit. Never as a DM, or have seen as a player, not let the player decide.
Any thoughts? Love it? Hate it?
The DM decides to let the player pick definitely falls within "the DM decides" guidance if that works better for your table :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
One thing I’ve done before to keep the power level down while still just letting the player choose what shows up and have their fun is to tell them that the animals are NPCs and they all follow the same command given by the PC as one. Like a school of fish or a herd. The conjured creatures all comply in as straightforward a method as possible.
We let the player pick but, if they pick something for a really specific/uncommon set of abilities, they have to make a Nature check as an action first to recall the info about a creature. This generally makes the summons fall into the tried and true category of a few often used beasts.
I’ve never really had any trouble with this spell or players using it. I haven’t seen it slow down turns, break combats, or make other players feel unneeded. Have all of you really seen these things? Not theoretically, but actually seen it?
When I played a shepherd druid (in DDAL) I made a deal with my DM that I could conjure what I wanted but I (the character, that was a little girl that could speak with animals) would always conjure bears. I had some Care Bears figures that I used for the minis. Everyone got so excited every time it happened. Also, I let each person at the table (up to 4) get to control one (DM permission of course) on their turn. It was a blast.
Yes. With both spells. Druid summoning swarms of rats every fight trivialized most fights. Druid summoning pixies for polymorph triggered DM into curtailing that, which ended up with the druid's player threatening to quit. It's not just theory. =)
I'm always interested in hearing what a player is interested in specifically summoning, but the spell itself doesn't let the character address specific entities (it's not Gate). I as the DM have a much greater ability to know what creatures could reasonably answer the caster's call.
For example, in a recent adventure our druid wanted to summon some panthers, and I had to say "You're 70 degrees north, literally above the arctic circle, there are no panthers here, you can have wolves." It's important to me that I respect how the spell actually works.
Honestly, I attribute that sage advice to a lack of reading comprehension combined with a lack of willingness to do revisions.
A lack of reading comprehension because of the insistence that we read the spells, features, etc. as they are, while WOTC ignore the explicit wording. In this case, both Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey say explicitly "You summon", and neither one makes any mention of DM choice. They only say "The GM has the creatures' statistics.", which (at least to me) obviously means the summoned creatures have to ones the DM has statistics for, so the players cannot simply make them up on the spot.
A lack of willingness to do revisions because the staff at WOTC could easily go back and revise anything they have ruled on to make it explicitly comply with their rulings, but such revisions are rare to nonexistent, even though they would clear up so much confusion.
There are a couple of monsters that are the reason why the Sage Advice ruled that the DM picks instead of the player. One is the Pixie that has the ability to cast Polymorph and 8 Polymorph spells is over powered. The other one is the Chwinga that has the ability to grant a Magical Gift and 8 Magical Gifts is also over powered.
They goofed when they created those two monsters and made it so that they can be summoned with 4th level spells. Their solution was to retroactively say that the DM gets to pick what is summoned instead of the player to let the DM not allow those two monsters to be summoned.
Professional computer geek
@Tim Indeed, rather than revising the monsters, or revising the spell, they (yet again) claim a contradictory intent, but still cannot be bothered to provide any evidence to support the claim (design notes, statement from confirmed author).
*blink blink*
Are you seriously accusing anybody of reading comprehension, while insisting the spells say the player/character can choose the animal? Conjure Animals explicitly states your choice is "CR and number of beasts", out of a list. Conjure Fey doesn't say that, and I guess you could argue the player/character can choose, but it still doesn't say or imply they can. The fact that they both say "You summon" only implies that, "you summon". If the DM chooses, you're still the one summoning them. If it's rolled randomly, you're still the one summoning. If you choose, you're still the one summoning. So "You summon" does not imply "you choose".
Lack of reading comprehension, indeed... *eyeroll*
Chwingas are elementals, not beasts, so you need a level 5 spell (Conjure Elemental), and you can only summon 1. There are two problems, though: 1) which element is appropriate? Earth? Air? Water? Fire? It's not obvious. In fact, it might be none. Chwingas don't appear to be elementals of a specific element. 2) you still can't choose. You only choose which element, and only by targeting a 10' cube of the chosen element, so you're still limited by what's available for that choice.
Summoning a lot of creatures DOES really slow down combat but, we all really enjoy when our Druid summons and how they get used. I can see how they can trivialize some encounters, they have also saved us from potential TPKs, allowed us to employ fantastic combat strategies and generally, have a lot of fun. We have occasionally been given control of some creatures, especially if used as a mount or if the Druid was far away or otherwise occupied. Hell, one time we fire-bombed a battle field with Giant Bats.
I think you've forgotten about conjure minor elementals.
Conjure Minor Elemental is a 4th level spell. That’s the one used to summon Chwingas.
Professional computer geek
Conjure Minor Elementals also very clearly doesn't give the caster the option to select specific creatures to summon. You choose CR and number, that's it.
@Tonio Not once does either spell say the DM/GM chooses, in fact, the only mention of the GM is "The GM has the creature's statistics." Keep in mind, the GM also has the races', classes', etc. statistics, but the GM doesnt choose the PCs' race, class, etc. That line simply means that the creatures chosen must be ones that the GM has info for.
As for player choice, the spell says "Choose one of the following options for what appears:" Notice something missing in that sentence, it doesnt say who chooses. When that happens, you have to look at the previous sentences from closest to furthest until you find who is being told. In this case "You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range.", which means the spell is explicitly saying that the user chooses, and explicitly does not say the GM does. The problem you and so many others make, is you are confusing options with criteria. Criteria being the variables that limit a choice, while options are the possible choices. The spell explicitly lists 'options', not criteria, and each option includes its own criteria (type, number of creatures, max CR per creature).
For this reason, this spell really needs a revision for clarity, either 'You choose one of the following options for what specific beasts appear, according to the listed criteria', or 'You choose one of the following criteria for what appears, and your GM picks creatures appropriate to that choice'. Which revision to be applied depending on if you want to keep the original structure of the spell, or apply the claimed intent of GM choice.
In fact, such a revision kind of did happen, for the Spell-less Ranger UA 13th level feature 'Call Natural Allies', which is basically the spell Conjure Animals. You can read this feature from the source here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes
@Lyxen 1st, his title Lead Games Designer, but that does not mean he was the author of the spell (did your teachers author your schoolwork? have your bosses authored your written works?). 2nd, that is more than 5 years for WOTC to make a revision to the spell for crystal clarity, could they just not be bothered? 3rd, do not insult me by acting as if I lacked in researching.
4th, do not confuse RAW and claims of intent. RAW is the text itself, devoid of opinions, even those of the staff. SAC is claimed intent (from what I have seen, always presented without any evidence). To be clear, SAC is fundamentally the logical fallacy 'Appeal to Authority', because it is a way of saying "look at my job title, I was in charge, so I know what I am talking about", but dont forget, the same person that makes rulings which reach the SAC is the same person who gave contradictory opinions on Shield Master, which means the rulings he makes via Sage Advice are 'on the spot', not well considered. Of course, he also sometimes just regurgitates the text asked about, and sometimes makes jokes about the person asking (as if being disrespectful helps at all).
"The Lead Designer isn't qualified to speak on design intent" sure is a take, gotta give you points for audacity at least.