Dragons have a legendary action to make a wisdom perception check. When there are arrows being shot, swords clashing, and fireballs going off in open combat, folks aren’t going to be as aware of small details as when they are walking along peacefully.
The Keen Mind feat specifically improves only the passive abilities and does not add a bonus to the skill.
Also, the ranger’s natural explorer makes ability it clear to me that you cannot remain alert and engage in another activity while doing so.
I don't think this is a terrible approach to hiding in combat. When you take the Help action to give someone advantage on a future attack, it just works. When you take the Dodge action to give all attacks against you disadvantage in the following round, it just works. Why then does Hide have such a loaded possibility that it's instantly negated and the action wasted... not just for any enemy that individually has a passive perception that exceeds your roll, but actually for all enemies collectively if any of them have a passive perception that beats your roll, even if none of them are actively searching for you??? And if everyone is always passively searching, then what is Search really for, especially for DMs that treat passive perception scores as a floor for active perception checks?
I think it's perfectly balanced to say that taking the Hide action just works, and you are Hidden. Then, any enemy that wants to find you is welcome to do so by spending their own Search action with an active roll. Hell, to avoid the action economy getting too imbalanced in a Rogue's favor, I'd probably let that enemy then actively communicate that they found the hiding player by speaking out loud, breaking Hidden for all enemies after one actively succeeds on its Search.
That feels balanced to me, though it isn't RAW, and I don't get why the rule was originally written to be so overly restrictive on players trying to Hide.
The idea that passive perception is "always on" and "acts as a floor" comes from an interview that JC did on Dragon Talk, and in my opinion should be considered RAI at best.
When someone is taking a walk in the park, their passive perception is on. When they are walking around a museum, their passive perception is on. When someone is in a fight to the death, their passive perception is off. When someone is playing a video game, reading a book, juggling, playing a sport, and any other activity, their passive perception is off as they are doing something else with their action/focus/attention. The hiding sidebar in the PHB is referring to a non-combat situation, in my opinion.
When there are arrows being shot, swords clashing, and fireballs going off in open combat, folks aren’t going to be as aware of small details as when they are walking along peacefully.
You are almost right.
As soon as a fight starts, people's senses are on high alert for the slightest movement anywhere on the battlefield where they aren't already aware of a combatant! So they are going to be MORE aware, not LESS.
When there are arrows being shot, swords clashing, and fireballs going off in open combat, folks aren’t going to be as aware of small details as when they are walking along peacefully.
You are almost right.
As soon as a fight starts, people's senses are on high alert for the slightest movement anywhere on the battlefield where they aren't already aware of a combatant! So they are going to be MORE aware, not LESS.
I don't know. I like the idea of their senses being on high alert, but I see that as being more hyper focused than a broad scope.
The idea that passive perception is "always on" and "acts as a floor" comes from an interview that JC did on Dragon Talk, and in my opinion should be considered RAI at best...
Agreed that JC was way off base to suggest passives are a skill floor, though it’s always been a very common houserule for many tables. But the oppressive nature of passive perception vs. Hide is right in the PHB (though on closer look, I guess one enemy’s passive doesn’t nuke your chance to hide from their whole team, that must have been a shitty houserule I was exposed to):
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
Yes. The language in the hiding box section in the PHB does seem very specific. But every other section in the PHB that talks about passive perception talks about it in terms of travel and specifically talks about situations where it might not be “on” because of doing other activities, actions, or position. Then in combat they talk about what can be done in your turn with an action and what can be done as part of moving. Nothing in the combat section mentions perception checks unless it specifically talks about it taking an action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't think this is a terrible approach to hiding in combat. When you take the Help action to give someone advantage on a future attack, it just works. When you take the Dodge action to give all attacks against you disadvantage in the following round, it just works. Why then does Hide have such a loaded possibility that it's instantly negated and the action wasted... not just for any enemy that individually has a passive perception that exceeds your roll, but actually for all enemies collectively if any of them have a passive perception that beats your roll, even if none of them are actively searching for you??? And if everyone is always passively searching, then what is Search really for, especially for DMs that treat passive perception scores as a floor for active perception checks?
I think it's perfectly balanced to say that taking the Hide action just works, and you are Hidden. Then, any enemy that wants to find you is welcome to do so by spending their own Search action with an active roll. Hell, to avoid the action economy getting too imbalanced in a Rogue's favor, I'd probably let that enemy then actively communicate that they found the hiding player by speaking out loud, breaking Hidden for all enemies after one actively succeeds on its Search.
That feels balanced to me, though it isn't RAW, and I don't get why the rule was originally written to be so overly restrictive on players trying to Hide.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I am always curious when people say that stealth is automatically contested by passive perception by RAW. I don't think that is the case.
The idea that passive perception is "always on" and "acts as a floor" comes from an interview that JC did on Dragon Talk, and in my opinion should be considered RAI at best.
When someone is taking a walk in the park, their passive perception is on. When they are walking around a museum, their passive perception is on. When someone is in a fight to the death, their passive perception is off. When someone is playing a video game, reading a book, juggling, playing a sport, and any other activity, their passive perception is off as they are doing something else with their action/focus/attention. The hiding sidebar in the PHB is referring to a non-combat situation, in my opinion.
You are almost right.
As soon as a fight starts, people's senses are on high alert for the slightest movement anywhere on the battlefield where they aren't already aware of a combatant! So they are going to be MORE aware, not LESS.
I don't know. I like the idea of their senses being on high alert, but I see that as being more hyper focused than a broad scope.
Honestly, I'm fine with skipping passive skills entirely. Combat (initiative order) seems like as good a place to start this as any.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Agreed that JC was way off base to suggest passives are a skill floor, though it’s always been a very common houserule for many tables. But the oppressive nature of passive perception vs. Hide is right in the PHB (though on closer look, I guess one enemy’s passive doesn’t nuke your chance to hide from their whole team, that must have been a shitty houserule I was exposed to):
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes. The language in the hiding box section in the PHB does seem very specific. But every other section in the PHB that talks about passive perception talks about it in terms of travel and specifically talks about situations where it might not be “on” because of doing other activities, actions, or position. Then in combat they talk about what can be done in your turn with an action and what can be done as part of moving. Nothing in the combat section mentions perception checks unless it specifically talks about it taking an action.