I am a relatively new DM (< 25 sessions). I have two rogues in my campaign.
I understand that when they take their cunning action they can take the hide action. which is going to be contested against the monster's passive perception. Unless the monster is already looking for them, then the hide action will be contested against an active perception roll.
My question is, if the rogue successfully hides on his turn, does it take an action for the monster/bad guy to roll a perception check to find the hidden creature or can it roll a new perception then take its action? Some creatures (i.e., dragons) have legendary actions to perceive creatures. so if they don't have those legendary actions I am not sure if it is an action to perceive.
Same goes for the PCs. if i have rogue creatures that can hide as a bonus action, is it an action for my PCs to perceive them in combat?
I am a relatively new DM (< 25 sessions). I have two rogues in my campaign.
I understand that when they take their cunning action they can take the hide action. which is going to be contested against the monster's passive perception. Unless the monster is already looking for them, then the hide action will be contested against an active perception roll.
Absolutely correct so far, I would just suggest a slightly different wording for the last part, because the monsters are the ones doing the action, it's their active perception roll that would be contested against the existing stealth roll of the rogues.
My question is, if the rogue successfully hides on his turn, does it take an action for the monster/bad guy to roll a perception check to find the hidden creature or can it roll a new perception then take its action?
First, the monsters do not need to take an action to get their passive perception, this is something that you have mentioned above. Moreover, as a DM, you are absolutely allowed to apply any modifier to the stealth check (-2, disadvantage), if the rogue is hiding in obvious places, or depending on the lighting conditions, just as you are absolutely allowed to add bonuses to the bad guy's passive perception, and in particular advantage if the bad guys are well positioned and you can consider that they are helping each other by seeing from different angles.
After that, unfortunately, it takes an action to search an area, which will give you an active perception check, so no, the monster/bad guy would not be able to search and take his action.
Search
When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Note, however, that sometimes, you do not have to take an action, if you can simply move to a position where you can simply see the rogue, they immediately lose their hidden status, and you do not even have to roll. If you have multiple bad guys looking for a rogue in a warehouse hiding behind crates, that is probably the simplest option, they just move all over the place, in a coordinated fashion if they are organised enough, and they will find the rogues without even having to use their perception.
Some creatures (i.e., dragons) have legendary actions to perceive creatures. so if they don't have those legendary actions I am not sure if it is an action to perceive.
See above, it's in the player's handbook in the section on combat actions.
Same goes for the PCs. if i have rogue creatures that can hide as a bonus action, is it an action for my PCs to perceive them in combat?
The answers are exactly the same, just invert the roles. :D
The key thing to remember is that hiding is not a special power. Hiding in D&D is defined as being both unseen and unheard. A creature doesn't have ANY opportunity to hide if they can be clearly seen. Some races have special abilities. A wood elf can try to hide when lightly obscured by natural terrain and a halfling can try to hide behind a creature at least one size larger than it. These abilities may allow a creature to hide even without some other type of solid cover.
The stealth roll made by the creature trying to hide determines how successful they are at being unseen and unheard IF the circumstances allow such a roll. This stealth roll is always opposed by other creatures passive perception and it is possible to successfully hide from some creatures and not others.
As Lyxen mentioned, the DM can impose additional modifiers to the roll if the circumstances of hiding make sense. For example, in a noisy environment, the DM might give advantage on the stealth roll depending on the cover since it becomes much easier to be unheard. On the other hand, in a silent tomb, it might be much harder to hide since even breathing might seem loud under some circumstances, so the DM might apply disadvantage. In general though, the DM usually manages stealth through the environment - are there obstacles that can effectively be used as cover for hiding or not? Is hiding even possible or not.
However, if a creature knows where a rogue was last seen they can just move and look behind the obstacle. As soon as they can see the hidden creature it is no longer hidden without needing to make any sort of roll since being able to see a creature clearly prevents them from being hidden. On the other hand, if the hidden creature can not be seen directly, it requires an action to take the Search action and make an active perception roll higher than the hidden creature's original stealth roll in order to know exactly where they are.
P.S. One other point, hiding is being unseen and unheard, it includes things like leaving tracks, causing a breeze with your movement, and other environmental cues that could give away the creature's location. However, depending on the circumstances, perhaps an invisible creature in a silence spell or noisy area with no reasonable possibility of other clues - the DM could rule a creature is hidden without making a stealth roll because it could be automatically both unseen and unheard due to the circumstances.
My question is, if the rogue successfully hides on his turn, does it take an action for the monster/bad guy to roll a perception check to find the hidden creature or can it roll a new perception then take its action? Some creatures (i.e., dragons) have legendary actions to perceive creatures. so if they don't have those legendary actions I am not sure if it is an action to perceive.
Same goes for the PCs. if i have rogue creatures that can hide as a bonus action, is it an action for my PCs to perceive them in combat?
This is what it comes down to and I can tell you right now that PCs in combat will do EVERYTHING they can to avoid having to use their action to search for a hidden enemy.
This is what it comes down to and I can tell you right now that PCs in combat will do EVERYTHING they can to avoid having to use their action to search for a hidden enemy.
Absolutely true, which I can understand because it's really a bummer to spend your action of the round just for that. But the rogues would also complain if it was that easier for the monsters as well, so... After that, you could consider homebrewing it to give a search as a bonus action, but again, not everyone would be happy with that...
so if one pc uses his action to search and finds a hidden monster. is that monster not hidden anymore for all the other PCs in the vincinity? or only the PC who has found them?
There are lots of discussions about this, and the RAW do not permit to be 100% sure, but the intent of the rules is clear in this podcast from JC, and that is that because creatures on the battlefield are alert and because they communicate with each other just as PCs do, being discovered by one means that you are discovered by everyone.
Again, this can (can certainly will) be disputed, but for me, this also comes from this:
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
This means that your stealth check (and its application for being contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of other creatures) stops as soon as you are discovered. The further reason for this is that it would not be practical to keep track of multiple stealth checks towards different groups of adversaries.
That being said, as explicitly mentioned in the podcast, this is one of the areas of the game where the DM's rulings are the most important and I certainly use my personal judgement when applying the above, for example for creatures who are really far from the action.
Whether hidden is an all or nothing or case by case ruling may not be explicitly defined and is thus up to the DM.
However, if we reference the rules on surprise which use the same mechanic - stealth check opposed by passive perception. It states the following ..
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
In this case, the DM checks to see who notices the hidden creatures and it is specifically NOT all or nothing. Some may be surprised while others are not. "Noticing a threat" could be interpreted in this context as seeing a hidden creature. Those who see one are not surprised while the rest are. In addition, most DMs would give the creatures who succeed on their stealth checks advantage on attack rolls because they start the combat hidden. On the other hand, if all it requires is one creature noticing the hidden creature in order for them to become visible because the creatures can communicate and tell others where it is then the entire concept of some creatures being surprised while others are not doesn't really make much sense since it is based on which creatures notice the hidden threats and which do not.
The DM can choose to play whichever way they like, but personally, since the surprise rules use the same mechanic and explicitly allow some to be surprised while others are not then it makes sense to me that a creature can remain hidden to some creatures while discovered by others. (However, this also depends on how a DM decides to interpret the meaning of hidden in game terms ...I take it to mean that I can't see the creature, can't see or hear what it is doing, so I do not have any warning if it emerges from cover to make an attack - thus giving the attacker disadvantage.
Others prefer hidden to mean, "I have no idea whatsoever where that creature could have gone". Folks who think of hidden this way tend to rule that repeatedly hiding behind the same tree or rock doesn't work since of course I know where the creature probably is or at least was so they should not be able to get the jump on me even if I have no idea if they might choose to emerge, which side of the obstacle they might come from, when they might emerge and of course I can pay close attention to the rock to catch the first hint of motion since there is nothing else going on around me and no possible other threats :).
Anyway, when I run stealth in combat, someone hiding is able to hide from some creatures but not others depending on the situation and die rolls in part because for me the definition of hiding meaning breaking contact or not being immediately visbile/heard or otherwise giving some hint of action or intent fits better with RAW than hidden meaning I have no idea where the creature is ... but that is just my take on it though it fits with the surprise rules.
The written rules leave this in the domain of DM judgment but the intent is that if even one enemy finds you, you need to make a new stealth roll.
Which requires a new action to hide, and until then you are no longer hidden by the previous stealth roll, in principle from anyone.
It doesn't have to mean that ... it is up to the DM. It doesn't actually say that one creature noticing another reveals it to everyone except perhaps in terms of placing the creature in a particular grid square on a battle map or letting the rest of the party know that a creature is present even if they don't know exactly where.
The hidden creature is no longer hidden from the creature who found it. It won't be hidden from any creatures who move to a location where they have a clear view. However, I don't see anything in the rules that says that they don't remain hidden from other creatures.
"Until you are discovered" could be interpreted to refer to the DC for the search attempt. It doesn't explicitly state that being discovered by one creature results in discovery by all and loss of hidden status .. so in the end it is a DM call (which I think we agree on :) ). I realize the logical question though of what DC is used for subsequent searches by other creatures if one creature has already found the creature? So I can see the basis for your interpretation as well.
It doesn't have to mean that ... it is up to the DM.
We throw this statement around a lot, but David speaks the truth here. The rules for stealth were intentionally written less rigidly than most rules with the explicit purpose of giving the DM loose guidelines to make calls as they see fit at the table.
In my experience, the DM saying "the way I'm going to run Stealth in combat is...." and then saying literally anything is less likely to provoke a table argument than "the way that the PHB says to run Stealth in combat is....". It's a loose (and illogical, and contradictory) enough system that everyone I've ever talked to thinks that the RAW is different from everyone else, but by and large, players are willing to accept it when the DM says that they have their own houserule system.
Read it, consider it, think about how you'd like it to work for your table... and then just present it as "here's how we're doing it," instead of inviting the rules lawyers to second guess you.
So the way I see it "hide" as done by a roguelike character whether player controlled or not serves two purposes.
1. To gain advantage (mechanical)
2. To not be seen.
Some might see these as the same but they are different I think.
If the rogue hides successfully (stealth vs pp) behind the only column in the room, I would say they have the advantage they are mechanical supposed to gain to others in the room. If the character whom they were last engaged with mere moments ago has his turn he isn't going to suddenly not remember seeing the rogue run off behind the rock. He shouldn't need to spend an action perceiving, he can go round behind the rock and stab them with the pointy end. In fact even if there were multiple rocks I think they can still go up to that place and stabby stabby. This doesn't negate the advantage the rogue has on attacks, with others, or if you don't try and gut them.
Action for Perception in combat would be noticing which of the three monsters has the pink crystal in their bum bag.
P.S. One other point, hiding is being unseen and unheard, it includes things like leaving tracks, causing a breeze with your movement, and other environmental cues that could give away the creature's location. However, depending on the circumstances, perhaps an invisible creature in a silence spell or noisy area with no reasonable possibility of other clues - the DM could rule a creature is hidden without making a stealth roll because it could be automatically both unseen and unheard due to the circumstances.
Both good points.
It doens't matter how good the DEX (Stealth) roll was, they can't hide in sand or snow (unless they can fly, of course).
It doesn't matter how bad the roll was, if they are invisible and flying in an area of magical silence, then they are hidden.
There is always* a situation in which an invisible creature might be hidden. There is always* a situation where an invisible creature might not be hidden.
As a DM, I "turn off" passive perception during combat.
In fact, I "turn off" all passive ability checks during combat, or any time the game is in initiative. Combat rounds are 6 seconds so no one is doing anything over and over again unless they are spending effort and focus to do so.
Dragons have a legendary action to make a wisdom perception check. When there are arrows being shot, swords clashing, and fireballs going off in open combat, folks aren’t going to be as aware of small details as when they are walking along peacefully.
The Keen Mind feat specifically improves only the passive abilities and does not add a bonus to the skill.
Also, the ranger’s natural explorer makes ability it clear to me that you cannot remain alert and engage in another activity while doing so.
Alert to the hidden traps and secret doors found in many dungeons, you gain the following benefits:
You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to detect the presence of secret doors.
You have advantage on saving throws made to avoid or resist traps.
You have resistance to the damage dealt by traps.
Traveling at a fast pace doesn't impose the normal −5 penalty on your passive Wisdom (Perception) score.
Observant
Quick to notice details of your environment, you gain the following benefits:
Increase your Intelligence or Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips.
You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.
Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.
The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured as explained in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
Noticing Threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot.
While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a –5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Encountering Creatures. If the DM determines that the adventurers encounter other creatures while they’re traveling, it’s up to both groups to decide what happens next. Either group might decide to attack, initiate a conversation, run away, or wait to see what the other group does.
Surprising Foes. If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when combat erupts. See chapter 9 for more about surprise.
Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM’s permission.
Navigate. The character can try to prevent the group from becoming lost, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules to determine whether the group gets lost.)
Draw a Map. The character can draw a map that records the group’s progress and helps the characters get back on course if they get lost. No ability check is required.
Track. A character can follow the tracks of another creature, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules for tracking.)
Forage. The character can keep an eye out for ready sources of food and water, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules for foraging.)
Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
These are the two most important parts of the PHB for me, as a DM, regarding stealth versus perception (bolded and underlined by me for impact).
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
I am a relatively new DM (< 25 sessions). I have two rogues in my campaign.
I understand that when they take their cunning action they can take the hide action. which is going to be contested against the monster's passive perception. Unless the monster is already looking for them, then the hide action will be contested against an active perception roll.
My question is, if the rogue successfully hides on his turn, does it take an action for the monster/bad guy to roll a perception check to find the hidden creature or can it roll a new perception then take its action? Some creatures (i.e., dragons) have legendary actions to perceive creatures. so if they don't have those legendary actions I am not sure if it is an action to perceive.
Same goes for the PCs. if i have rogue creatures that can hide as a bonus action, is it an action for my PCs to perceive them in combat?
Thank you
Lyxen covered most of it very well.
The key thing to remember is that hiding is not a special power. Hiding in D&D is defined as being both unseen and unheard. A creature doesn't have ANY opportunity to hide if they can be clearly seen. Some races have special abilities. A wood elf can try to hide when lightly obscured by natural terrain and a halfling can try to hide behind a creature at least one size larger than it. These abilities may allow a creature to hide even without some other type of solid cover.
The stealth roll made by the creature trying to hide determines how successful they are at being unseen and unheard IF the circumstances allow such a roll. This stealth roll is always opposed by other creatures passive perception and it is possible to successfully hide from some creatures and not others.
As Lyxen mentioned, the DM can impose additional modifiers to the roll if the circumstances of hiding make sense. For example, in a noisy environment, the DM might give advantage on the stealth roll depending on the cover since it becomes much easier to be unheard. On the other hand, in a silent tomb, it might be much harder to hide since even breathing might seem loud under some circumstances, so the DM might apply disadvantage. In general though, the DM usually manages stealth through the environment - are there obstacles that can effectively be used as cover for hiding or not? Is hiding even possible or not.
However, if a creature knows where a rogue was last seen they can just move and look behind the obstacle. As soon as they can see the hidden creature it is no longer hidden without needing to make any sort of roll since being able to see a creature clearly prevents them from being hidden. On the other hand, if the hidden creature can not be seen directly, it requires an action to take the Search action and make an active perception roll higher than the hidden creature's original stealth roll in order to know exactly where they are.
P.S. One other point, hiding is being unseen and unheard, it includes things like leaving tracks, causing a breeze with your movement, and other environmental cues that could give away the creature's location. However, depending on the circumstances, perhaps an invisible creature in a silence spell or noisy area with no reasonable possibility of other clues - the DM could rule a creature is hidden without making a stealth roll because it could be automatically both unseen and unheard due to the circumstances.
This is what it comes down to and I can tell you right now that PCs in combat will do EVERYTHING they can to avoid having to use their action to search for a hidden enemy.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
so if one pc uses his action to search and finds a hidden monster. is that monster not hidden anymore for all the other PCs in the vincinity? or only the PC who has found them?
The written rules leave this in the domain of DM judgment but the intent is that if even one enemy finds you, you need to make a new stealth roll.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Whether hidden is an all or nothing or case by case ruling may not be explicitly defined and is thus up to the DM.
However, if we reference the rules on surprise which use the same mechanic - stealth check opposed by passive perception. It states the following ..
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
In this case, the DM checks to see who notices the hidden creatures and it is specifically NOT all or nothing. Some may be surprised while others are not. "Noticing a threat" could be interpreted in this context as seeing a hidden creature. Those who see one are not surprised while the rest are. In addition, most DMs would give the creatures who succeed on their stealth checks advantage on attack rolls because they start the combat hidden. On the other hand, if all it requires is one creature noticing the hidden creature in order for them to become visible because the creatures can communicate and tell others where it is then the entire concept of some creatures being surprised while others are not doesn't really make much sense since it is based on which creatures notice the hidden threats and which do not.
The DM can choose to play whichever way they like, but personally, since the surprise rules use the same mechanic and explicitly allow some to be surprised while others are not then it makes sense to me that a creature can remain hidden to some creatures while discovered by others. (However, this also depends on how a DM decides to interpret the meaning of hidden in game terms ...I take it to mean that I can't see the creature, can't see or hear what it is doing, so I do not have any warning if it emerges from cover to make an attack - thus giving the attacker disadvantage.
Others prefer hidden to mean, "I have no idea whatsoever where that creature could have gone". Folks who think of hidden this way tend to rule that repeatedly hiding behind the same tree or rock doesn't work since of course I know where the creature probably is or at least was so they should not be able to get the jump on me even if I have no idea if they might choose to emerge, which side of the obstacle they might come from, when they might emerge and of course I can pay close attention to the rock to catch the first hint of motion since there is nothing else going on around me and no possible other threats :).
Anyway, when I run stealth in combat, someone hiding is able to hide from some creatures but not others depending on the situation and die rolls in part because for me the definition of hiding meaning breaking contact or not being immediately visbile/heard or otherwise giving some hint of action or intent fits better with RAW than hidden meaning I have no idea where the creature is ... but that is just my take on it though it fits with the surprise rules.
It doesn't have to mean that ... it is up to the DM. It doesn't actually say that one creature noticing another reveals it to everyone except perhaps in terms of placing the creature in a particular grid square on a battle map or letting the rest of the party know that a creature is present even if they don't know exactly where.
The hidden creature is no longer hidden from the creature who found it. It won't be hidden from any creatures who move to a location where they have a clear view. However, I don't see anything in the rules that says that they don't remain hidden from other creatures.
"Until you are discovered" could be interpreted to refer to the DC for the search attempt. It doesn't explicitly state that being discovered by one creature results in discovery by all and loss of hidden status .. so in the end it is a DM call (which I think we agree on :) ). I realize the logical question though of what DC is used for subsequent searches by other creatures if one creature has already found the creature? So I can see the basis for your interpretation as well.
We throw this statement around a lot, but David speaks the truth here. The rules for stealth were intentionally written less rigidly than most rules with the explicit purpose of giving the DM loose guidelines to make calls as they see fit at the table.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
In my experience, the DM saying "the way I'm going to run Stealth in combat is...." and then saying literally anything is less likely to provoke a table argument than "the way that the PHB says to run Stealth in combat is....". It's a loose (and illogical, and contradictory) enough system that everyone I've ever talked to thinks that the RAW is different from everyone else, but by and large, players are willing to accept it when the DM says that they have their own houserule system.
Read it, consider it, think about how you'd like it to work for your table... and then just present it as "here's how we're doing it," instead of inviting the rules lawyers to second guess you.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So the way I see it "hide" as done by a roguelike character whether player controlled or not serves two purposes.
1. To gain advantage (mechanical)
2. To not be seen.
Some might see these as the same but they are different I think.
If the rogue hides successfully (stealth vs pp) behind the only column in the room, I would say they have the advantage they are mechanical supposed to gain to others in the room. If the character whom they were last engaged with mere moments ago has his turn he isn't going to suddenly not remember seeing the rogue run off behind the rock. He shouldn't need to spend an action perceiving, he can go round behind the rock and stab them with the pointy end. In fact even if there were multiple rocks I think they can still go up to that place and stabby stabby. This doesn't negate the advantage the rogue has on attacks, with others, or if you don't try and gut them.
Action for Perception in combat would be noticing which of the three monsters has the pink crystal in their bum bag.
Both good points.
It doens't matter how good the DEX (Stealth) roll was, they can't hide in sand or snow (unless they can fly, of course).
It doesn't matter how bad the roll was, if they are invisible and flying in an area of magical silence, then they are hidden.
Air currents from their movement can still give their position away if they are flying.
There is always* a situation in which an invisible creature might be hidden. There is always* a situation where an invisible creature might not be hidden.
* almost always ;)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As a DM, I "turn off" passive perception during combat.
In fact, I "turn off" all passive ability checks during combat, or any time the game is in initiative. Combat rounds are 6 seconds so no one is doing anything over and over again unless they are spending effort and focus to do so.
Then how do you determine whether a stealth check succeeds?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It succeeds.
Dragons have a legendary action to make a wisdom perception check. When there are arrows being shot, swords clashing, and fireballs going off in open combat, folks aren’t going to be as aware of small details as when they are walking along peacefully.
The Keen Mind feat specifically improves only the passive abilities and does not add a bonus to the skill.
Also, the ranger’s natural explorer makes ability it clear to me that you cannot remain alert and engage in another activity while doing so.
Dungeon Delver
Alert to the hidden traps and secret doors found in many dungeons, you gain the following benefits:
Observant
Quick to notice details of your environment, you gain the following benefits:
Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.
The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured as explained in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
Noticing Threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot.
While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a –5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Encountering Creatures. If the DM determines that the adventurers encounter other creatures while they’re traveling, it’s up to both groups to decide what happens next. Either group might decide to attack, initiate a conversation, run away, or wait to see what the other group does.
Surprising Foes. If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when combat erupts. See chapter 9 for more about surprise.
Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM’s permission.
Navigate. The character can try to prevent the group from becoming lost, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules to determine whether the group gets lost.)
Draw a Map. The character can draw a map that records the group’s progress and helps the characters get back on course if they get lost. No ability check is required.
Track. A character can follow the tracks of another creature, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules for tracking.)
Forage. The character can keep an eye out for ready sources of food and water, making a Wisdom (Survival) check when the DM calls for it. (The Dungeon Master’s Guide has rules for foraging.)
Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
These are the two most important parts of the PHB for me, as a DM, regarding stealth versus perception (bolded and underlined by me for impact).
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
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