Proxy, I'm just going to drop trying to argue against specific points, and others in the thread will correct your misinterpretations of the rules if they want. I was in the Echo Knight thread, and I am not eager to redo one of those threads.
You did fail to answer my question, though. If the changes they made actually "change nothing," why would they bother changing it at all? And don't say because the wording was confusing or anything like that, that's BS. The fact that a "melee weapon attack" and an "attack with a melee weapon" are two completely different things in 5e is confusing, and they have done no rule changes/errata in the PHB to clear that up. The same thing applies to literally hundreds of other things in this edition. There are confusing things in the ruleset, and WotC almost never actually changes the books/rules to clear anything up. The only thing they do is do Sage Advice, which is nearly universally despised among the D&D 5e community.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I mean, I'm right, there is nothing you can say that does not make me right, I can copy past the wording for booming blade, distant spell AND twined and by the wording of booming it only works for distant spell by extending the range of the weapon attack you can make with the weapon. however I was wrong in that the new change makes 0 difference, the old booming blade DID NOT WORK WITH reach weapons as you had to make the attack on a creature within range
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Huh. Well, since there’s only about two weeks left where your misunderstanding of current-BB is relevant, I too will let it lie rather than dragging it out. 😋 At least it sounds like the new version will work in a way you’re in favor of, so there’s a silver lining!
third, if you want I CAN copy past the EXACT wording for booming blade, distant spell and twined spell if you lost your PHB/SCAG or don't have access to a refence
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Hey, it's okay Proxy. We're not attacking you. There is absolutely no need to get so angry. Since there is no point in trying to convince you on this, as you will never change your opinion based on that echo knight thread, you should just drop it. I don't care if you interpret this rule that is changing incorrectly. I will refer you back to my previous post, though. If you continue ignoring the facts and getting angry from us just trying to explain how the spell and rules interact, there's no better solution than just to ignore it. It hurts no one for you to not die on this hill.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
also in sage advice the only mention of booming blade is just Jeremy clarifying how twined worked https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/ he doesn't actually answer the question. so by the reasoning of it has you make a weapon attack to a creature in range and not actually targeting a creature it does not work with twined, however you can still quicken it and because you can use as many cantrips you want in a turn that lets you do it twice (once as a action and once as a bonus action) happy?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
third, if you want I CAN copy past the EXACT wording for booming blade, distant spell and twined spell if you lost your PHB/SCAG or don't have access to a refence
I've dealt with you before in previous threads. I'm not going to argue that with you. Drop it, otherwise you're trolling. The only point I will discuss is the question I laid out in this post:
That very Sage Advice you quoted contradicts your point. He said that "TS [Twinned Spell] works," because it only affects one creature, and its range is not self.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
That very Sage Advice you quoted contradicts your point. He said that "TS [Twinned Spell] works," because it only affects one creature, and its range is not self.
see this is what I am talking about, players misquoting rules and trolling. the FULL quote is "Twinned Spell test: can the spell affect only one creature at the spell's current level, and is its range not self? If yes, TS works. #DnD" note at the end "if yes, TS works." NOT TS works." I mean at this point your just trying to get me angry = your trolling. please in the future make exact quotes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
I'm sorry if my paraphrasing the meaning of his post angered you. I have not intended to offend you in any way. I am not a troll, stop calling me one, that is against site rules. Now this is two threads I have civilly and respectfully disagreed with you in, and you have leapt to personal attacks and calling me a troll.
Okay, let's go through that quote, then. According to Jeremy Crawford (likely the person who wrote both Twinned Spell and Booming Blade), Twinned Spell works if it "affects" only one creature, and its range is not self. Now, let's go through Booming Blade:
How many people does the spell affect? It affects the person you target with the melee attack with a weapon. That's only one person. Check 1!
Now, what is the spell's current range? 5 feet. Check 2!
Those are the only requirements Jeremy Crawford stated, so according to the person who probably wrote both rules (whether or not you accept sage advice), Booming Blade is eligible for Twinned Spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I'm sorry if my paraphrasing the meaning of his post angered you. I have not intended to offend you in any way. I am not a troll, stop calling me one, that is against site rules. Now this is two threads I have civilly and respectfully disagreed with you in, and you have leapt to personal attacks and calling me a troll.
Okay, let's go through that quote, then. According to Jeremy Crawford (likely the person who wrote both Twinned Spell and Booming Blade), Twinned Spell works if it "affects" only one creature, and its range is not self. Now, let's go through Booming Blade:
How many people does the spell affect? It affects the person you target with the melee attack with a weapon. That's only one person. Check 1!
Now, what is the spell's current range? 5 feet. Check 2!
Those are the only requirements Jeremy Crawford stated, so according to the person who probably wrote both rules (whether or not you accept sage advice), Booming Blade is eligible for Twinned Spell.
like I said, it does not target a creature, because it does not target a creature it can't be twined. yes the spell tells you to make a weapon attack to one creature in range twined spell specifies "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self" the spell itself does not target a creature, the melee weapon attack preformed as part of the spell does but that is not a spell, its a weapon attack witch is why it works with sneak attack, maneuvers and smite features/spells. as I said before it would work if it said "make a spell melee attack" but it does not, at any rate because of the change of the makes me right ultimately and further cements why its being changed witch is: people misunderstand how this spell works.
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
I'm done. I, and everyone else, have nothing to gain from any further argument. If you genuinely believe all of that, I know there is no way to convince you. You have merely been dodging the questions and blatantly misinterpreting the rules.
Unsubscribing now.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So the Twin test Crawford put forth as a Sage Advice was “Can the Spell at its Current Level effect only one creature without a range of self? Then its Twinnable”.
This is why it was Twinnable.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails.
This specific line of text is the most important part. It is targeting one creature specifically.
Depending on how/whether they reword the spell description in addition to its header, I'm not sure it will be able to target anyone:
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range...
I suppose it will remain to be seen whether that changes to "within 5 feet" or "within the weapon's range reach" or what.
If the spell's wording is changed to have a Range of "Self" and just says "make a melee weapon attack against a creature", without specifying a distance, then I imagine any melee weapon attack will work as long as the target of the attack is within the weapon's reach. Seems like that'd be the simplest way to do it.
If the spell's wording is changed to have a Range of "Self" and just says "make a melee weapon attack against a creature", without specifying a distance, then I imagine any melee weapon attack will work as long as the target of the attack is within the weapon's reach. Seems like that'd be the simplest way to do it.
Yes, that would make it very simple to use... but it would also provide a new and exciting specimen in the growing "the target of the spell and the target of the spell's effect are clearly different creatures, so which one is "the target" for other interacting features????" adventure :)
I think your prediction is probably the correct one.
If the spell's wording is changed to have a Range of "Self" and just says "make a melee weapon attack against a creature", without specifying a distance, then I imagine any melee weapon attack will work as long as the target of the attack is within the weapon's reach. Seems like that'd be the simplest way to do it.
Yes, that would make it very simple to use... but it would also provide a new and exciting specimen in the growing "the target of the spell and the target of the spell's effect are clearly different creatures, so which one is "the target" for other interacting features????" adventure :)
I think your prediction is probably the correct one.
Maybe it'd work like the Smite spells, only without a duration.
I have to assume the wording of Booming Blade will have to change along with the range since the spell's description designates the creature being attacked as the target. This wording is fine for a spell with a 5 foot range. I think it will cause confusion if they don't change it.
I also fully expect them to change the wording, so it's probably a moot point.
"like I said, it does not target a creature, because it does not target a creature it can't be twined. yes the spell tells you to make a weapon attack" (Emphasis mine, quoting Proxy)
This is... probably getting a little off topic. But reread what "attack" is
"Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location".
The first part states that all "attacks" follow the same structure, which is to choose a target. I don't think there is any way to make it clearer than that, the spell asks you to make a attack, and when you make a attack, you "Pick a target".
Edit: Yeah, I think it's best for us to leave this topic alone, but for now I'll end it off of this.
"if the wording on the spell was "target one creature and make a melee weapon attack ageist it" then that would mean the spell is directly targeting a creature, but in its place it just asks for a melee weapon attack." The wording states to "target one creature" because that's a specific rule to override the general rule that all attacks target a creature or a object/location. WOTC is very specific to ensure that certain spells cannot target objects.
Like fireball, which does not damage objects, only "burns" them. This is to ensure that you cannot roll max damage and burn a steel door down, however a wooden wall will always be burnt down even if you roll all 1s for fireball damage.
"like I said, it does not target a creature, because it does not target a creature it can't be twined. yes the spell tells you to make a weapon attack" (Emphasis mine, quoting Proxy)
This is... probably getting a little off topic. But reread what "attack" is
"Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location".
The first part states that all "attacks" follow the same structure, which is to choose a target. I don't think there is any way to make it clearer than that, the spell asks you to make a attack, and when you make a attack, you "Pick a target".
Twinned Spellp102
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren't eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
if you read booming blade the spell does not target a creature it asks you to make a melee attack is not asking you to target a creature. to be more precise if the spell were to tell you directly to target a creature or make a spell melee attack then it could have been twined, while the melee attack is part of the spell its still a separate action, when you make the melee attack you are targeting a creature with the melee weapon attack not the spell. if the wording on the spell was "target one creature and make a melee weapon attack ageist it" then that would mean the spell is directly targeting a creature, but in its place it just asks for a melee weapon attack. also in all likelhood they will change the spells range to self, this is a buff witch allows the player to use it with a reach weapon witch you had to use distant spell to do before, as the spell tells you to make a melee attack on a creature within range, even if you had a reach weapon you couldn't make the attack if the creature was 10 feet away because its not in the spells 5 foot range. to make myself even more clear this is how it works step by step you use your action to cast the spell, no creature is targeted you make a melee weapon attack on a creature within 5 feet, the creature is the target of the melee attack NOT the spell the spells effects are applied to the creature targeted by the melee attack the same logic applies to the smite spells and stuff like zephyr strike. to be eligible for twined spell the spell has to target a creature when its cast and the spell itself has to target a creature. I will no longer argue this point as I have just repeated myself, been attacked, reported because someone was mad that they were wrong and finally made a moot point due to the update changing the wording and no longer making the spell eligible for twined or distant (the former of witch it never was eligible for)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Well then making the range "self" should fix the problem with being able to twin this spell. This change should make it so that the spell interacts with twin and distant exactly the way the spell is intended to, and remove the confusion that is apparent in this thread. Hopefully the new wording reflects the changes in a reasonable manner (i.e. it isn't exactly the current wording with just the range changed) and further reinforces the change the authors wish to make with the spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Proxy, I'm just going to drop trying to argue against specific points, and others in the thread will correct your misinterpretations of the rules if they want. I was in the Echo Knight thread, and I am not eager to redo one of those threads.
You did fail to answer my question, though. If the changes they made actually "change nothing," why would they bother changing it at all? And don't say because the wording was confusing or anything like that, that's BS. The fact that a "melee weapon attack" and an "attack with a melee weapon" are two completely different things in 5e is confusing, and they have done no rule changes/errata in the PHB to clear that up. The same thing applies to literally hundreds of other things in this edition. There are confusing things in the ruleset, and WotC almost never actually changes the books/rules to clear anything up. The only thing they do is do Sage Advice, which is nearly universally despised among the D&D 5e community.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I mean, I'm right, there is nothing you can say that does not make me right, I can copy past the wording for booming blade, distant spell AND twined and by the wording of booming it only works for distant spell by extending the range of the weapon attack you can make with the weapon. however I was wrong in that the new change makes 0 difference, the old booming blade DID NOT WORK WITH reach weapons as you had to make the attack on a creature within range
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Huh. Well, since there’s only about two weeks left where your misunderstanding of current-BB is relevant, I too will let it lie rather than dragging it out. 😋 At least it sounds like the new version will work in a way you’re in favor of, so there’s a silver lining!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
third, if you want I CAN copy past the EXACT wording for booming blade, distant spell and twined spell if you lost your PHB/SCAG or don't have access to a refence
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Hey, it's okay Proxy. We're not attacking you. There is absolutely no need to get so angry. Since there is no point in trying to convince you on this, as you will never change your opinion based on that echo knight thread, you should just drop it. I don't care if you interpret this rule that is changing incorrectly. I will refer you back to my previous post, though. If you continue ignoring the facts and getting angry from us just trying to explain how the spell and rules interact, there's no better solution than just to ignore it. It hurts no one for you to not die on this hill.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
also in sage advice the only mention of booming blade is just Jeremy clarifying how twined worked https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/ he doesn't actually answer the question. so by the reasoning of it has you make a weapon attack to a creature in range and not actually targeting a creature it does not work with twined, however you can still quicken it and because you can use as many cantrips you want in a turn that lets you do it twice (once as a action and once as a bonus action) happy?
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
I've dealt with you before in previous threads. I'm not going to argue that with you. Drop it, otherwise you're trolling. The only point I will discuss is the question I laid out in this post:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/86391-booming-blade-changes-in-tashas?comment=21
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That very Sage Advice you quoted contradicts your point. He said that "TS [Twinned Spell] works," because it only affects one creature, and its range is not self.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
see this is what I am talking about, players misquoting rules and trolling. the FULL quote is "Twinned Spell test: can the spell affect only one creature at the spell's current level, and is its range not self? If yes, TS works. #DnD"
note at the end "if yes, TS works." NOT TS works."
I mean at this point your just trying to get me angry = your trolling. please in the future make exact quotes.
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
I'm sorry if my paraphrasing the meaning of his post angered you. I have not intended to offend you in any way. I am not a troll, stop calling me one, that is against site rules. Now this is two threads I have civilly and respectfully disagreed with you in, and you have leapt to personal attacks and calling me a troll.
Okay, let's go through that quote, then. According to Jeremy Crawford (likely the person who wrote both Twinned Spell and Booming Blade), Twinned Spell works if it "affects" only one creature, and its range is not self. Now, let's go through Booming Blade:
How many people does the spell affect? It affects the person you target with the melee attack with a weapon. That's only one person. Check 1!
Now, what is the spell's current range? 5 feet. Check 2!
Those are the only requirements Jeremy Crawford stated, so according to the person who probably wrote both rules (whether or not you accept sage advice), Booming Blade is eligible for Twinned Spell.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
like I said, it does not target a creature, because it does not target a creature it can't be twined. yes the spell tells you to make a weapon attack to one creature in range twined spell specifies "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self" the spell itself does not target a creature, the melee weapon attack preformed as part of the spell does but that is not a spell, its a weapon attack witch is why it works with sneak attack, maneuvers and smite features/spells. as I said before it would work if it said "make a spell melee attack" but it does not, at any rate because of the change of the makes me right ultimately and further cements why its being changed witch is: people misunderstand how this spell works.
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
I'm done. I, and everyone else, have nothing to gain from any further argument. If you genuinely believe all of that, I know there is no way to convince you. You have merely been dodging the questions and blatantly misinterpreting the rules.
Unsubscribing now.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
So the Twin test Crawford put forth as a Sage Advice was “Can the Spell at its Current Level effect only one creature without a range of self? Then its Twinnable”.
This is why it was Twinnable.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails.
This specific line of text is the most important part. It is targeting one creature specifically.
If the spell's wording is changed to have a Range of "Self" and just says "make a melee weapon attack against a creature", without specifying a distance, then I imagine any melee weapon attack will work as long as the target of the attack is within the weapon's reach. Seems like that'd be the simplest way to do it.
Yes, that would make it very simple to use... but it would also provide a new and exciting specimen in the growing "the target of the spell and the target of the spell's effect are clearly different creatures, so which one is "the target" for other interacting features????" adventure :)
I think your prediction is probably the correct one.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Maybe it'd work like the Smite spells, only without a duration.
I have to assume the wording of Booming Blade will have to change along with the range since the spell's description designates the creature being attacked as the target. This wording is fine for a spell with a 5 foot range. I think it will cause confusion if they don't change it.
I also fully expect them to change the wording, so it's probably a moot point.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
"like I said, it does not target a creature, because it does not target a creature it can't be twined. yes the spell tells you to make a weapon attack" (Emphasis mine, quoting Proxy)
This is... probably getting a little off topic. But reread what "attack" is
"Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location".
The first part states that all "attacks" follow the same structure, which is to choose a target. I don't think there is any way to make it clearer than that, the spell asks you to make a attack, and when you make a attack, you "Pick a target".
Edit: Yeah, I think it's best for us to leave this topic alone, but for now I'll end it off of this.
"if the wording on the spell was "target one creature and make a melee weapon attack ageist it" then that would mean the spell is directly targeting a creature, but in its place it just asks for a melee weapon attack." The wording states to "target one creature" because that's a specific rule to override the general rule that all attacks target a creature or a object/location. WOTC is very specific to ensure that certain spells cannot target objects.
Like fireball, which does not damage objects, only "burns" them. This is to ensure that you cannot roll max damage and burn a steel door down, however a wooden wall will always be burnt down even if you roll all 1s for fireball damage.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Twinned Spellp102
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren't eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
if you read booming blade the spell does not target a creature it asks you to make a melee attack is not asking you to target a creature.
to be more precise if the spell were to tell you directly to target a creature or make a spell melee attack then it could have been twined, while the melee attack is part of the spell its still a separate action, when you make the melee attack you are targeting a creature with the melee weapon attack not the spell. if the wording on the spell was "target one creature and make a melee weapon attack ageist it" then that would mean the spell is directly targeting a creature, but in its place it just asks for a melee weapon attack.
also in all likelhood they will change the spells range to self, this is a buff witch allows the player to use it with a reach weapon witch you had to use distant spell to do before, as the spell tells you to make a melee attack on a creature within range, even if you had a reach weapon you couldn't make the attack if the creature was 10 feet away because its not in the spells 5 foot range.
to make myself even more clear this is how it works step by step
you use your action to cast the spell, no creature is targeted
you make a melee weapon attack on a creature within 5 feet, the creature is the target of the melee attack NOT the spell
the spells effects are applied to the creature targeted by the melee attack
the same logic applies to the smite spells and stuff like zephyr strike. to be eligible for twined spell the spell has to target a creature when its cast and the spell itself has to target a creature.
I will no longer argue this point as I have just repeated myself, been attacked, reported because someone was mad that they were wrong and finally made a moot point due to the update changing the wording and no longer making the spell eligible for twined or distant (the former of witch it never was eligible for)
D&D is not a video game, you don't need a tank or a healer, for thar matter you can turn pretty much any class into a frontliner, heavy damage dealer or healer with the right feats and items.
Well then making the range "self" should fix the problem with being able to twin this spell. This change should make it so that the spell interacts with twin and distant exactly the way the spell is intended to, and remove the confusion that is apparent in this thread. Hopefully the new wording reflects the changes in a reasonable manner (i.e. it isn't exactly the current wording with just the range changed) and further reinforces the change the authors wish to make with the spell.