I know that many of that questions were already answered but looking at todays JC Booming blade answer I'm lost.
1. Can you cast chain lightning or use call lightning action? 2. Can you use AoE spells like Lightning bolt if there is just one creature in range? 3. As fireball has different wording than most aoe and calls a creature in range a "target" - can you use AoE like fireball if there is just one creature in range?
Yes to all three, if you accept JC's authority, then the logical consequence of JC saying that point of origins for spells shouldn't count as a target for War Caster (here and here)is that AOE spells that only include one enemy in their AOE are valid War Caster spells to use. From War Caster's perspective, there's very little mechanical difference between new-Booming Blade and a Call Lightning that is shaped to only strike one enemy.
You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
He's basically said that War Caster requires you to target "only that creature [and no other creatures]" not "only that creature [and no other targets]", because really Chapter 10 tells us that points of origin for AOE spells are targets.
Yes to all three, if you accept JC's authority, then the logical consequence of JC saying that point of origins for spells shouldn't count as a target for War Caster (here and here)is that AOE spells that only include one enemy in their AOE are valid War Caster spells to use. From War Caster's perspective, there's very little mechanical difference between new-Booming Blade and a Call Lightning that is shaped to only strike one enemy.
You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
He's basically said that War Caster requires you to target "only that creature [and no other creatures]" not "only that creature [and no other targets]", because really Chapter 10 tells us that points of origin for AOE spells are targets.
How about shield master 2nd bullet and aoe that only targets its user?
Yep, I don't see any reason to interpret Shield Master's "targets only you" any different from War Caster's "target only that creature" or Twinned Spell's "only one creature." If JC is clarifying that War Caster's wording was worried about total creatures targeted, not the presence of other non-creature point of origin targets, and if all other similarly worded features are treated consistently, then AOE spells start to interact with a lot of features that we've always assumed they didn't.
Yep, I don't see any reason to interpret Shield Master's "targets only you" any different from War Caster's "target only that creature" or Twinned Spell's "only one creature." If JC is clarifying that War Caster's wording was worried about total creatures targeted, not the presence of other non-creature point of origin targets, and if all other similarly worded features are treated consistently, then AOE spells start to interact with a lot of features that we've always assumed they didn't.
The thing is that JC said it doesn't. Also twinned spell refers to capability not to a current targets. You still can't twin spell that has a potential to affect more than one target.
Ah yes, the line break on Twinned Spell always makes me miss that part. You're correct. But War Caster third bullet and Shield Master second bullet are too similarly worded to not interpret the same way for both.
I know that many of that questions were already answered but looking at todays JC Booming blade answer I'm lost.
1. Can you cast chain lightning or use call lightning action? 2. Can you use AoE spells like Lightning bolt if there is just one creature in range? 3. As fireball has different wording than most aoe and calls a creature in range a "target" - can you use AoE like fireball if there is just one creature in range?
Call Lightning is a flat "no" regardless of how many creatures it would hit. It targets a location, not a creature. The follow up action is entirely ineligible with War Caster no matter what. War Caster allows you to cast a spell as an OA; using the follow up action is not casting a spell.
Chain Lightning is a maybe, but IMO it's still a no. While it does target a creature, initially, it also targets other creatures and objects within 30ft. Whether this can be used comes down to whether your DM thinks the secondary targeting is optional or not. To me, it seems to not be optional. There's a lack of language indicating "targets of your choice". You can choose the primary target, but it doesn't look like you have any control over what happens after that. If there is anything else affected by the spell, besides the one creature, that disqualifies it from use with War Caster.
The answer to this is almost always going to be "no". If the spell affects a location or object, in addition to the requisite one creature, it's not eligible.
Lightning Bolt ignites flammable objects not worn/carried, which accounts for a lot of environmental objects. Grass, trees, and other plant matter are flammable. Using this with War Caster is a hard sell, but maybe not an impossible one.
Fireballis an impossible sell. The primary target is a location, full stop.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I know that many of that questions were already answered but looking at todays JC Booming blade answer I'm lost.
1. Can you cast chain lightning or use call lightning action? 2. Can you use AoE spells like Lightning bolt if there is just one creature in range? 3. As fireball has different wording than most aoe and calls a creature in range a "target" - can you use AoE like fireball if there is just one creature in range?
Call Lightning is a flat "no" regardless of how many creatures it would hit. It targets a location, not a creature. The follow up action is entirely ineligible with War Caster no matter what. War Caster allows you to cast a spell as an OA; using the follow up action is not casting a spell.
Chain Lightning is a maybe, but IMO it's still a no. While it does target a creature, initially, it also targets other creatures and objects within 30ft. Whether this can be used comes down to whether your DM thinks the secondary targeting is optional or not. To me, it seems to not be optional. There's a lack of language indicating "targets of your choice". You can choose the primary target, but it doesn't look like you have any control over what happens after that. That disqualifies it from use with War Caster.
The answer to this is almost always going to be "no". If the spell affects a location or object, in addition to the requisite one creature, it's not eligible.
Lightning Bolt ignites flammable objects not worn/carried, which accounts for a lot of environmental objects. Grass, trees, and other plant matter are flammable. Using this with War Caster is a hard sell, but maybe not an impossible one.
Fireballis an impossible sell. The primary target is a location, full stop.
How about shield master 2nd bullet and aoe that only targets its user? JC just twitted this: "A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space." so point of origins is not a target
You are the sole target of a spell or harmful effect
The spell/effect must not have any impact on other creatures, objects, or locations
You will never be able to use that feature against Fireball
[edit] Side note: this portion of the feat is terribly designed. Should've just left it at "If you aren't Incapacitated" as the sole target requirement invalidates its use against the majority of spells/effects you'd want/expect it to apply [edit]
The spell/harmful effect forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Look, new-Booming Blade targets a point in space to define its area of effect in functionally the same way that Call Lightning does. It just does, there's no escaping it... if other AOE spells target a point, then BB does too. If BB doesn't, or if War Caster is interpreted by JC in a way where it doesn't matter that BB does, then that same precedent extends to other AOE's.
I don't see where/how you draw a line between those two cases.
Maybe using Call Lightning as the example is too much sticker shock to get you to the bottom of the slippery slope right from square 1... okay, Create Bonfire.
You create it in one square, effecting just one creature. Before JC's new tweets, I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the space was the target, not any creatures that are effected by the spell's secondary effects... but if that's not how we're reading new-BB, then what's so different about Create Bonfire that allows us to draw a bright line between them?
You create it in one square, effecting just one creature. Before JC's new tweets, I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the space was the target, not any creatures that are effected by the spell's secondary effects...
You know you're, like, the only person on these forums who thinks that, so "pretty obvious" is a stretch.
Booming Blade isn't actually an AoE any more than Fire Bolt is. It's still just "choose one target within range." The area isn't a target, it merely defines where an acceptable target could be found. I... don't actually understand the rationale of defining the point of origin as self in this erratum, something that was already implicit before. It seems unnecessary.
Create Bonfire, on the other hand, does target an area, as well as any creature or creatures that are in that area. It's ineligible to be twinned because it's not limited to one creature. You're incorrect to say it is. Whether or not Shield Master etc. apply to it apparently depend on whether or not you are the only creature it targets.
And that brings up yet another delightful ambiguity in the text: "targets only one creature" doesn't necessarily say anything about non-creature targets. It absolutely can be read as equivalent to "whose only target is one creature," but it can also be read as equivalent to "targets whatever as long as there's only a single creature among those targets." [EDIT] Shield Master and War Caster don't actually use this exact language, instead saying "targets only that creature" and "targets only you," which avoid that ambiguity. Slightly less fun than I was thinking it was.
You are the sole target of a spell or harmful effect
The spell/effect must not have any impact on other creatures, objects, or locations
You will never be able to use that feature against [spell]Fireball[spell]
The spell/harmful effect forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw
"against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you" same wording as war caster, not twinned spell. Two different cases.
Yes, they are different cases. What I have been writing is with regard to War Caster's and Shield Master's requirements, not Twinned Spell's requirements.
Twinned Spell is a more stringent restriction because spells used with that feature cannot possibly affect more than one creature.
WC & SM don't care if it's possible to affect more than one target (which is inclusive of creatures, objects, and locations); they care about whether it does affect (in actual play) more than one target (which must exclusively be a creature).
Any spell targeting a location (which is how most AoEs are intentionally structured) is ineligible for WC & SM. Those are wiped off the board immediately.
Any spell targeting an object (which many spells do, as noted in their descriptions) is ineligible for WC & SM. Those are wiped off the board immediately.
Any spell which may affect more than one target could be eligible for WC & SM, so long as the spell doesn't affect anything other than the one creature.
Green-Flame Blade has always been eligible for use with War Caster, not just after this latest errata hit. It targets one creature, and the secondary fire damage to another creature within 5 feet is optional--"different creature of your choice". It can still be argued that if there is a second creature in range for that fire damage, then it might not be "optional" to avoid affecting them. Regardless, if there is not a second creature within 5 feet of the target, Green-Flame Blade is absolutely eligible. The spell has no affect on locations or objects.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You are the sole target of a spell or harmful effect
The spell/effect must not have any impact on other creatures, objects, or locations
You will never be able to use that feature against [spell]Fireball[spell]
The spell/harmful effect forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw
"against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you" same wording as war caster, not twinned spell. Two different cases.
Yes, they are different cases. What I have been writing is with regard to War Caster's and Shield Master's requirements, not Twinned Spell's requirements.
Twinned Spell is a more stringent restriction because spells used with that feature cannot possibly affect more than one creature.
WC & SM don't care if it's possible to affect more than one target (which is inclusive of creatures, objects, and locations); they care about whether it does affect (in actual play) more than one target (which must exclusively be a creature).
Any spell targeting a location (which is how most AoEs are intentionally structured) is ineligible for WC & SM. Those are wiped off the board immediately.
Any spell targeting an object (which many spells do, as noted in their descriptions) is ineligible for WC & SM. Those are wiped off the board immediately.
Any spell which may affect more than one target could be eligible for WC & SM, so long as the spell doesn't affect anything other than the one creature.
Green-Flame Blade has always been eligible for use with War Caster, not just after this latest errata hit. It targets one creature, and the secondary fire damage to another creature within 5 feet is optional--"different creature of your choice". It can still be argued that if there is a second creature in range for that fire damage, then it might not be "optional" to avoid affecting them. Regardless, if there is not a second creature within 5 feet of the target, Green-Flame Blade is absolutely eligible. The spell has no affect on locations or objects.
I mean fireball refers to creatures in range as targets, that's why I ask. Also SM says "targets only you" so it doesn't say that objects and location doesn't count.
If it targets objects or locations, it doesn't target "only you."
I agree but again, JC said yesterday that BB still works with war caster "The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." and as I know that the change with BB is only to not twin it (self range) you could argue that it targets your blade and an enemy.
You create it in one square, effecting just one creature. Before JC's new tweets, I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the space was the target, not any creatures that are effected by the spell's secondary effects...
You know you're, like, the only person on these forums who thinks that, so "pretty obvious" is a stretch.
Booming Blade isn't actually an AoE any more than Fire Bolt is. It's still just "choose one target within range." The area isn't a target, it merely defines where an acceptable target could be found. I... don't actually understand the rationale of defining the point of origin as self in this erratum, something that was already implicit before. It seems unnecessary.
Create Bonfire, on the other hand, does target an area, as well as any creature or creatures that are in that area. It's ineligible to be twinned because it's not limited to one creature. You're incorrect to say it is. Whether or not Shield Master etc. apply to it apparently depend on whether or not you are the only creature it targets.
And that brings up yet another delightful ambiguity in the text: "targets only one creature" doesn't necessarily say anything about non-creature targets. It absolutely can be read as equivalent to "whose only target is one creature," but it can also be read as equivalent to "targets whatever as long as there's only a single creature among those targets." [EDIT] Shield Master and War Caster don't actually use this exact language, instead saying "targets only that creature" and "targets only you," which avoid that ambiguity. Slightly less fun than I was thinking it was.
It is NOT a choose a target within range spell, and you know that. The range is self, to create a 5-foot-radius area of effect, which allows you to choose one target within that area of effect. If it was a choose a target within range (5 feet) spell, then it would still be Twinnable and Distantable.
To the extent that AOE's are created around a targeted point (and I agree that they are), then BB does that, with that targeted point being "Self" (your own square? a point on one face of your square? whole other bag of worms for another day). But JC says its still War Caster-eligible despite that, so clearly War Caster doesn't care about targeted points of origin, just targeted creatures (and probably targeted objects too). None of that is written, but that's the RAI take he's presenting.
I'm willing to be talked out of my position, but ignoring the actual range of the spell for a different range that would have made more sense is not the way to do it. Please address the actual spell as (soon to be) written, not simplified shorthand.
A target can be locations, objects, and/or creatures. Everything that is affected by a spell/effect is a target of the spell/effect itself. If the spell in question affects more than only yourself (SM), or more than only one creature (WC), then the features are not applicable with the spell.
Fireball targets a location. It then explodes, targeting all creatures and flammable objects within 20 ft of that location. Targeting a location is an immediate disqualification for those features; whether anything else is within range is irrelevant at this point. Targeting additional creatures and/or objects is also an immediate disqualification for those features.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I agree with you, so it's unchanged except that WC says "targets only that creature" so anything else (object/location) should also prevent that spell from being used.
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I know that many of that questions were already answered but looking at todays JC Booming blade answer I'm lost.
1. Can you cast chain lightning or use call lightning action?
2. Can you use AoE spells like Lightning bolt if there is just one creature in range?
3. As fireball has different wording than most aoe and calls a creature in range a "target" - can you use AoE like fireball if there is just one creature in range?
Yes to all three, if you accept JC's authority, then the logical consequence of JC saying that point of origins for spells shouldn't count as a target for War Caster (here and here)is that AOE spells that only include one enemy in their AOE are valid War Caster spells to use. From War Caster's perspective, there's very little mechanical difference between new-Booming Blade and a Call Lightning that is shaped to only strike one enemy.
He's basically said that War Caster requires you to target "only that creature [and no other creatures]" not "only that creature [and no other targets]", because really Chapter 10 tells us that points of origin for AOE spells are targets.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
How about shield master 2nd bullet and aoe that only targets its user?
Yep, I don't see any reason to interpret Shield Master's "targets only you" any different from War Caster's "target only that creature" or Twinned Spell's "only one creature." If JC is clarifying that War Caster's wording was worried about total creatures targeted, not the presence of other non-creature point of origin targets, and if all other similarly worded features are treated consistently, then AOE spells start to interact with a lot of features that we've always assumed they didn't.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The thing is that JC said it doesn't. Also twinned spell refers to capability not to a current targets. You still can't twin spell that has a potential to affect more than one target.
Ah yes, the line break on Twinned Spell always makes me miss that part. You're correct. But War Caster third bullet and Shield Master second bullet are too similarly worded to not interpret the same way for both.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How about shield master 2nd bullet and aoe that only targets its user?
JC just twitted this:
"A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space."
so point of origins is not a target
Point of origin is irrelevant for what you're asking about.
That feature of Shield Master has three requirements for eligibility:
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Look, new-Booming Blade targets a point in space to define its area of effect in functionally the same way that Call Lightning does. It just does, there's no escaping it... if other AOE spells target a point, then BB does too. If BB doesn't, or if War Caster is interpreted by JC in a way where it doesn't matter that BB does, then that same precedent extends to other AOE's.
I don't see where/how you draw a line between those two cases.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
"against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you" same wording as war caster, not twinned spell. Two different cases.
Maybe using Call Lightning as the example is too much sticker shock to get you to the bottom of the slippery slope right from square 1... okay, Create Bonfire.
You create it in one square, effecting just one creature. Before JC's new tweets, I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the space was the target, not any creatures that are effected by the spell's secondary effects... but if that's not how we're reading new-BB, then what's so different about Create Bonfire that allows us to draw a bright line between them?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You know you're, like, the only person on these forums who thinks that, so "pretty obvious" is a stretch.
Booming Blade isn't actually an AoE any more than Fire Bolt is. It's still just "choose one target within range." The area isn't a target, it merely defines where an acceptable target could be found. I... don't actually understand the rationale of defining the point of origin as self in this erratum, something that was already implicit before. It seems unnecessary.
Create Bonfire, on the other hand, does target an area, as well as any creature or creatures that are in that area. It's ineligible to be twinned because it's not limited to one creature. You're incorrect to say it is. Whether or not Shield Master etc. apply to it apparently depend on whether or not you are the only creature it targets.
And that brings up yet another delightful ambiguity in the text: "targets only one creature" doesn't necessarily say anything about non-creature targets. It absolutely can be read as equivalent to "whose only target is one creature," but it can also be read as equivalent to "targets whatever as long as there's only a single creature among those targets." [EDIT] Shield Master and War Caster don't actually use this exact language, instead saying "targets only that creature" and "targets only you," which avoid that ambiguity. Slightly less fun than I was thinking it was.
Yes, they are different cases. What I have been writing is with regard to War Caster's and Shield Master's requirements, not Twinned Spell's requirements.
Twinned Spell is a more stringent restriction because spells used with that feature cannot possibly affect more than one creature.
WC & SM don't care if it's possible to affect more than one target (which is inclusive of creatures, objects, and locations); they care about whether it does affect (in actual play) more than one target (which must exclusively be a creature).
Green-Flame Blade has always been eligible for use with War Caster, not just after this latest errata hit. It targets one creature, and the secondary fire damage to another creature within 5 feet is optional--"different creature of your choice". It can still be argued that if there is a second creature in range for that fire damage, then it might not be "optional" to avoid affecting them. Regardless, if there is not a second creature within 5 feet of the target, Green-Flame Blade is absolutely eligible. The spell has no affect on locations or objects.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I mean fireball refers to creatures in range as targets, that's why I ask. Also SM says "targets only you" so it doesn't say that objects and location doesn't count.
If it targets objects or locations, it doesn't target "only you."
I agree but again, JC said yesterday that BB still works with war caster "The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." and as I know that the change with BB is only to not twin it (self range) you could argue that it targets your blade and an enemy.
It is NOT a choose a target within range spell, and you know that. The range is self, to create a 5-foot-radius area of effect, which allows you to choose one target within that area of effect. If it was a choose a target within range (5 feet) spell, then it would still be Twinnable and Distantable.
To the extent that AOE's are created around a targeted point (and I agree that they are), then BB does that, with that targeted point being "Self" (your own square? a point on one face of your square? whole other bag of worms for another day). But JC says its still War Caster-eligible despite that, so clearly War Caster doesn't care about targeted points of origin, just targeted creatures (and probably targeted objects too). None of that is written, but that's the RAI take he's presenting.
I'm willing to be talked out of my position, but ignoring the actual range of the spell for a different range that would have made more sense is not the way to do it. Please address the actual spell as (soon to be) written, not simplified shorthand.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A target can be locations, objects, and/or creatures. Everything that is affected by a spell/effect is a target of the spell/effect itself. If the spell in question affects more than only yourself (SM), or more than only one creature (WC), then the features are not applicable with the spell.
Fireball targets a location. It then explodes, targeting all creatures and flammable objects within 20 ft of that location. Targeting a location is an immediate disqualification for those features; whether anything else is within range is irrelevant at this point. Targeting additional creatures and/or objects is also an immediate disqualification for those features.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I agree with you, so it's unchanged except that WC says "targets only that creature" so anything else (object/location) should also prevent that spell from being used.