If a spell caster succeeds in polymorphing a dragon (reg. polymorph, not True Polymorph), is it reasonable that the dragon can use its shapechange ability to turn back into a dragon?
Or, do these rules replace its abilities:
"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast."
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."
That is probably an oversight, but no. If you polymorph a dragon it loses all its features. You have to earn that spell though, through high saves and legendary resistances.
Polymorph says " The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points."
So the spell fails if a creature has a shapechange ability. But Dragons do NOT have a shapechange ability.
The metallic dragons (Gold, Silver, Copper, etc.) have a Change Shape Ability. They could have called it 'Shape Change' but intentionally choose to not declare these dragons shapechangers. It is not an oversight, it is clearly intentional.
Which means that they are not immune and can not use their ability if they are polymorphed.
Polymorph says " The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points."
So the spell fails if a creature has a shapechange ability. But Dragons do NOT have a shapechange ability.
The metallic dragons (Gold, Silver, Copper, etc.) have a Change Shape Ability. They could have called it 'Shape Change' but intentionally choose to not declare these dragons shapechangers. It is not an oversight, it is clearly intentional.
Which means that they are not immune and can not use their ability if they are polymorphed.
Not just that, the Change Shape ability does state the following on such metallic dragons " The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid" so no natural change there,
That is probably an oversight, but no. If you polymorph a dragon it loses all its features. You have to earn that spell though, through high saves and legendary resistances.
Thing is, a dragon aint going to willingly allow such to happen and unless you have forced such to use its three legendary resistances, it aint going to be polymorphed, and their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
...their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
Guys, you are overthinking it. Shapechanger is just a trait under the monster's type.
Doppelganger: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), unaligned
Werewolf: Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger), chaotic evil
Mimic: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
A Dragon is not a shapechanger not because it's ability is called Change Shape or whatever but because it does not have "(shapechanger)" under its type.
Tags
A monster might have one or more tags appended to its type, in parentheses. For example, an orc has the Humanoid (orc) type. The parenthetical tags provide additional categorization for certain creatures. The tags have no rules of their own, but something in the game, such as a magic item, might refer to them. For instance, a spear that is especially effective at fighting Demons would work against any monster that has the demon tag.
Guys, you are overthinking it. Shapechanger is just a trait under the monster's type.
Doppelganger: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), unaligned
Werewolf: Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger), chaotic evil
Mimic: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
A Dragon is not a shapechanger not because it's ability is called Change Shape or whatever but because it does not have "(shapechanger)" under its type.
No one is overthinking anything. OP was asking if a dragon can change back or if polymorph would REALLY apply to them due to their innate ability to magically polymorph which can be mistaken for a shapechanger. Specially if a dragon went from humanoid to making themselves look like a werewolf.
Guys, you are overthinking it. Shapechanger is just a trait under the monster's type.
Doppelganger: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), unaligned
Werewolf: Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger), chaotic evil
Mimic: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
A Dragon is not a shapechanger not because it's ability is called Change Shape or whatever but because it does not have "(shapechanger)" under its type.
No one is overthinking anything. OP was asking if a dragon can change back or if polymorph would REALLY apply to them due to their innate ability to magically polymorph which can be mistaken for a shapechanger. Specially if a dragon went from humanoid to making themselves look like a werewolf.
To which, the answer is no because Dragons are not shapechangers.
I was more talking about analyzing Shape Change vs. Change Shape here. It doesn't matter. Dragons don't have the (shapechanger) tag so they are not shapechangers.
...their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
To stop a dragon from polymorphing back you would NEED to change it into an object using True Polymorph. An object cant think therefore wouldnt think about using such. Otherwise you would need to polymorph a dragon into a creature with an Int less than 3. They dont loose the ability to use an innate ability since it doesnt require the use of hands or speaking, they just think it and it happens.
Besides, its a moot point anyway, a dragon just simply wouldnt FAIL the roll and would make the caster's life hell for even trying to do such.
...their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
To stop a dragon from polymorphing back you would NEED to change it into an object using True Polymorph. An object cant think therefore wouldnt think about using such. Otherwise you would need to polymorph a dragon into a creature with an Int less than 3. They dont loose the ability to use an innate ability since it doesnt require the use of hands or speaking, they just think it and it happens.
Besides, its a moot point anyway, a dragon just simply wouldnt FAIL the roll and would make the caster's life hell for even trying to do such.
I disagree.
Let's break down what Polymorph says, shall we?
The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points.
It works on a dragon alright assuming it has more than 0 hit points because dragons are not shapechangers.
The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the ability Change Shape, which is under Dragon's statblock, is part of it's game statistics?
The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
The new form doesn't have the Change Shape ability which means it's not accessible to the dragon.
...their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
To stop a dragon from polymorphing back you would NEED to change it into an object using True Polymorph. An object cant think therefore wouldnt think about using such. Otherwise you would need to polymorph a dragon into a creature with an Int less than 3. They dont loose the ability to use an innate ability since it doesnt require the use of hands or speaking, they just think it and it happens.
Besides, its a moot point anyway, a dragon just simply wouldnt FAIL the roll and would make the caster's life hell for even trying to do such.
I disagree.
Let's break down what Polymorph says, shall we?
The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points.
It works on a dragon alright assuming it has more than 0 hit points because dragons are not shapechangers.
The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the ability Change Shape, which is under Dragon's statblock, is part of it's game statistics?
The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
The new form doesn't have the Change Shape ability which means it's not accessible to the dragon.
Again a MOOT point because it will just go "Nope, you dont polymorph me." Meaning it chooses to pass the saving throw.
Also, lets talk about those highlighted points.
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form" - This here is talking about what actions it can do. If the dragon could swim normally, and its new form cant, then it cant swim. Its the same restriction a Changeling has when it changes to a new humanoid form, just because that humanoid form has wings dont mean it can fly.
"The target’s game statistics" - You however missed the end part about retaining alignment and personality on that line. The personality is how one acts and does things. While yes you can argue that a target's game statistics can mean abilities, it doesnt state abilities in that line, statistics are its scores, which is why it includes in there about mental abilities because such dont normally change. Which again goes back to its magical ability to polymorph, it aint a spell in the sense of one but an ability.
But, I am done arguing about it. Go and find a post on WotC or from Crawford, or maybe asking him. But once more, it's moot because a dragon will just pass the save, then teach the caster a big lesson on why you dont try such.
And yes, we know it can affect a dragon because they arent shapeshifters. Honestly YOU ARE FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE THERE TRYING TO PUSH THAT POINT.
...their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
To stop a dragon from polymorphing back you would NEED to change it into an object using True Polymorph. An object cant think therefore wouldnt think about using such. Otherwise you would need to polymorph a dragon into a creature with an Int less than 3. They dont loose the ability to use an innate ability since it doesnt require the use of hands or speaking, they just think it and it happens.
Besides, its a moot point anyway, a dragon just simply wouldnt FAIL the roll and would make the caster's life hell for even trying to do such.
I disagree.
Let's break down what Polymorph says, shall we?
The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points.
It works on a dragon alright assuming it has more than 0 hit points because dragons are not shapechangers.
The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the ability Change Shape, which is under Dragon's statblock, is part of it's game statistics?
The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
The new form doesn't have the Change Shape ability which means it's not accessible to the dragon.
Again a MOOT point because it will just go "Nope, you dont polymorph me." Meaning it chooses to pass the saving throw.
Also, lets talk about those highlighted points.
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form" - This here is talking about what actions it can do. If the dragon could swim normally, and its new form cant, then it cant swim. Its the same restriction a Changeling has when it changes to a new humanoid form, just because that humanoid form has wings dont mean it can fly.
"The target’s game statistics" - You however missed the end part about retaining alignment and personality on that line. The personality is how one acts and does things. While yes you can argue that a target's game statistics can mean abilities, it doesnt state abilities in that line, statistics are its scores, which is why it includes in there about mental abilities because such dont normally change. Which again goes back to its magical ability to polymorph, it aint a spell in the sense of one but an ability.
But, I am done arguing about it. Go and find a post on WotC or from Crawford, or maybe asking him. But once more, it's moot because a dragon will just pass the save, then teach the caster a big lesson on why you dont try such.
And yes, we know it can affect a dragon because they arent shapeshifters. Honestly YOU ARE FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE THERE TRYING TO PUSH THAT POINT.
So it retains it's breath attack as well? It's in the same space. Right above it. Why one yes and not the other?
Also, what does personality and alignment have to do with anything?
Funny how you say that statistics doesn't mean abilities but does mean scores. IF they meant only scores they could've simply written "The targets ability scores are replaced" - note how they did not do that.
I also don't get your point about it being moot because it has legendary resistance. Part of the tactics is to make it use all of the resistances and THEN attack with a finisher. Or just cast again and again. I guess by the time you fight an ancient dragon with legendary resistances you can afford to cast Polymorph more than once.
First, lets clear up some terminology since obviously we can't discuss what the spell does if one or more parties does not know what some words are referring to.
Ability: ability scores: strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma. Nothing else in the game is ever referred to as an ability.
Feature/trait: all innate passive/triggered effects that don't use an action such as legendary resistance.
Actions: hopefully self explanatory, but to be clear this includes includes change shape action.
Statistics: often shortened to stats or stat block, refers to literally every mechanical aspect of a creature including but not limited to everything mentioned above.
Now, what does polymorph replace? All statistics except alignment (so everything mentioned). It also specifically mentions actions as a redundancy. This means it can't use its change shape action twice over.
And yes, it is hard to polymorph a dragon, but not moot. No new information has been added to this thread since comment 3 (which only corrected that not having shapechanger was not an oversight, otherwise this question has been fully answered since post 2).
At this point I feel like the question has been answered. Thanks to everyone for offering your opinions.
One of the tipping points for me was this episode of Sage Advice in which Jeremy Crawford discusses the Polymorph spell. While he doesn't address this exact question, he makes it pretty clear that only creatures with the 'shapechanger' tag are immune. All others become an entirely different creature with access to a completely different set of abilities.
The situation that gave rise to the question was a battle with a Silver dragon during which the wizard tried polymorph. The GM opted to have the dragon accept the failed save on the basis that it could use its ability to change shape back to dragon on its next turn. We all agreed the outcome would have been the same as the dragon still had a legendary resistance, and would have probably benefited from not wasting an action, so it was simply a question of tactics and whether a thing was allowed under the current ruleset. Based on our various research, we concluded that the dragon only had the option of legendary resistance and the entire party was awarded inspiration for successfully challenging the GM's ruling.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If a spell caster succeeds in polymorphing a dragon (reg. polymorph, not True Polymorph), is it reasonable that the dragon can use its shapechange ability to turn back into a dragon?
Or, do these rules replace its abilities:
That is probably an oversight, but no. If you polymorph a dragon it loses all its features. You have to earn that spell though, through high saves and legendary resistances.
Polymorph says " The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points."
So the spell fails if a creature has a shapechange ability. But Dragons do NOT have a shapechange ability.
The metallic dragons (Gold, Silver, Copper, etc.) have a Change Shape Ability. They could have called it 'Shape Change' but intentionally choose to not declare these dragons shapechangers. It is not an oversight, it is clearly intentional.
Which means that they are not immune and can not use their ability if they are polymorphed.
Not just that, the Change Shape ability does state the following on such metallic dragons " The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid" so no natural change there,
Thing is, a dragon aint going to willingly allow such to happen and unless you have forced such to use its three legendary resistances, it aint going to be polymorphed, and their ability to Change Shape is more innate than spell, though it can be affected by an AMF due to its magical nature and them not being a diety, so nothing stopping themselves from just willing themselves to another creature or back to their original form.
A polymorphed creature loses all of its statistics and becomes a beast; a polymorphed dragon is no different. They're not true shapechangers since they transform using magic. Contrast that with lycanthropes, mimics and doppelgangers, who truly have an innate ability to transform built into their biology.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Guys, you are overthinking it. Shapechanger is just a trait under the monster's type.
Doppelganger: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), unaligned
Werewolf: Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger), chaotic evil
Mimic: Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
A Dragon is not a shapechanger not because it's ability is called Change Shape or whatever but because it does not have "(shapechanger)" under its type.
This is exactly what Polymorph refers to.
No one is overthinking anything. OP was asking if a dragon can change back or if polymorph would REALLY apply to them due to their innate ability to magically polymorph which can be mistaken for a shapechanger. Specially if a dragon went from humanoid to making themselves look like a werewolf.
To which, the answer is no because Dragons are not shapechangers.
I was more talking about analyzing Shape Change vs. Change Shape here. It doesn't matter. Dragons don't have the (shapechanger) tag so they are not shapechangers.
To stop a dragon from polymorphing back you would NEED to change it into an object using True Polymorph. An object cant think therefore wouldnt think about using such. Otherwise you would need to polymorph a dragon into a creature with an Int less than 3. They dont loose the ability to use an innate ability since it doesnt require the use of hands or speaking, they just think it and it happens.
Besides, its a moot point anyway, a dragon just simply wouldnt FAIL the roll and would make the caster's life hell for even trying to do such.
I disagree.
Let's break down what Polymorph says, shall we?
It works on a dragon alright assuming it has more than 0 hit points because dragons are not shapechangers.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the ability Change Shape, which is under Dragon's statblock, is part of it's game statistics?
The new form doesn't have the Change Shape ability which means it's not accessible to the dragon.
Again a MOOT point because it will just go "Nope, you dont polymorph me." Meaning it chooses to pass the saving throw.
Also, lets talk about those highlighted points.
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form" - This here is talking about what actions it can do. If the dragon could swim normally, and its new form cant, then it cant swim. Its the same restriction a Changeling has when it changes to a new humanoid form, just because that humanoid form has wings dont mean it can fly.
"The target’s game statistics" - You however missed the end part about retaining alignment and personality on that line. The personality is how one acts and does things. While yes you can argue that a target's game statistics can mean abilities, it doesnt state abilities in that line, statistics are its scores, which is why it includes in there about mental abilities because such dont normally change. Which again goes back to its magical ability to polymorph, it aint a spell in the sense of one but an ability.
But, I am done arguing about it. Go and find a post on WotC or from Crawford, or maybe asking him. But once more, it's moot because a dragon will just pass the save, then teach the caster a big lesson on why you dont try such.
And yes, we know it can affect a dragon because they arent shapeshifters. Honestly YOU ARE FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE THERE TRYING TO PUSH THAT POINT.
So it retains it's breath attack as well? It's in the same space. Right above it. Why one yes and not the other?
Also, what does personality and alignment have to do with anything?
Funny how you say that statistics doesn't mean abilities but does mean scores. IF they meant only scores they could've simply written "The targets ability scores are replaced" - note how they did not do that.
I also don't get your point about it being moot because it has legendary resistance. Part of the tactics is to make it use all of the resistances and THEN attack with a finisher. Or just cast again and again. I guess by the time you fight an ancient dragon with legendary resistances you can afford to cast Polymorph more than once.
First, lets clear up some terminology since obviously we can't discuss what the spell does if one or more parties does not know what some words are referring to.
Ability: ability scores: strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma. Nothing else in the game is ever referred to as an ability.
Feature/trait: all innate passive/triggered effects that don't use an action such as legendary resistance.
Actions: hopefully self explanatory, but to be clear this includes includes change shape action.
Statistics: often shortened to stats or stat block, refers to literally every mechanical aspect of a creature including but not limited to everything mentioned above.
Now, what does polymorph replace? All statistics except alignment (so everything mentioned). It also specifically mentions actions as a redundancy. This means it can't use its change shape action twice over.
And yes, it is hard to polymorph a dragon, but not moot. No new information has been added to this thread since comment 3 (which only corrected that not having shapechanger was not an oversight, otherwise this question has been fully answered since post 2).
At this point I feel like the question has been answered. Thanks to everyone for offering your opinions.
One of the tipping points for me was this episode of Sage Advice in which Jeremy Crawford discusses the Polymorph spell. While he doesn't address this exact question, he makes it pretty clear that only creatures with the 'shapechanger' tag are immune. All others become an entirely different creature with access to a completely different set of abilities.
The situation that gave rise to the question was a battle with a Silver dragon during which the wizard tried polymorph. The GM opted to have the dragon accept the failed save on the basis that it could use its ability to change shape back to dragon on its next turn. We all agreed the outcome would have been the same as the dragon still had a legendary resistance, and would have probably benefited from not wasting an action, so it was simply a question of tactics and whether a thing was allowed under the current ruleset. Based on our various research, we concluded that the dragon only had the option of legendary resistance and the entire party was awarded inspiration for successfully challenging the GM's ruling.