I have always wanted to play a blind character(don’t ask why) but at the same time I also didn’t want him to be useless. Enter, blind sight, however I read several threads on how blind sight worked and discovered that it was somewhat “like echo location but without the clicking”. This got my gears turning and I wondered “Could you read a book with blind sight? Could you see colors? Could you see the details on a persons face? Or was it more like general outlines of things?”.
Unlike Darkvision and Truesight, Blindsight doesn't give you a lot of information about how it works or what limitations are placed on it. A hardline reading of the text would indicate that it functions the same as normal sight, with no additional abilities or drawbacks, and would override the blinded inside its radius. Most people extend blindsight to allow you to see invisible creatures or even illusions based on light (although both of these potentially makes sense, they are unsupported by the text, where they are supported by the text of Truesight). Likewise others impose restrictions on reading written text and seeing color, both of which make sense, but are again, unsupported by the text.
Lyxen, is there text that supports seeing invisible creatures? I can't actually find any.
A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius.
Not much, but based on wording, I would say you don't get much in the way of detail. Shapes, but no color, etc. So reading is out.
As for seeing invisible, lets check that:
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense.
Again not much (there was a bit more, but not about interaction with sight). But since an invisible creature only can't be seen and a creature with blindsight perceives its surroundings without sight, there is nothing about invisibility to suggest blindsight does not perceive it.
Lyxen, is there text that supports seeing invisible creatures? I can't actually find any.
Here's some SageAdvice for the interaction with Invisibility.
Summary: Invisibility only makes you invisible. Blindsight is senses without vision, so invisibility is irrelevant, however hiding behind total cover is still an option.
And here's some SageAdvice for the qualia of Blindsight.
Summary: You can perceive your environment, including environmental phenomena. "A person in heavy fog would appear to be surrounded by static".
If we over-simplify "heavy fog" as a purely visual phenomenon equivalent to a magical illusion, then an argument could be made that a character with Blindsight would be able to perceive visual stimulus, but would lack the visual qualia as Lyxen said. Whether or not text on a page would be legible would probably depend on the individual's resolution, but there is very little justification for giving natural blindsight that kind of utility. An aberration might get away with it because they are inherently weird... And, of course, magical blindsight would probably get special treatment.
Ultimately, it's DMs call, but my expectation is that it would be something comparable to thermal vision:
The quality of details would be based on something "other", such as temperature or texture, and some pieces of information would be entirely lost, such as color or local depth. It might make recognizing individuals easier, due to unique thermal/UV/phase-shifting properties, or it could make it harder due to being unable to tell where armor and body transitions are.
(Heat based blindsight might be able to read a book by breathing on the pages. The ink would cause the text to heat/cool at a different rate than the paper itself.)
I would also encourage giving a creature with blindsight some discoverable weakness. For example, Blindsight(thermal) could be masked temporarily by jumping in a cold lake or hiding behind insulative material (Thermal rifle scopes can't see through glass) Whereas Blindsight(hearing) could be defeated with Silence or sustained loud noises. Blindsight is powerful, but also creates some great opportunities for problem solving, if adjusted.
I think the fact that the CR 1/8 poisonous snake (as well as many insects) has Blindsight 10ft should help a DM make informed decisions about the intended limitations of Invisibility with respect to infrared and/or UV.
Lyxen, very cool about the googles!
I was somewhat disappointed when I learned about the legal restriction on IR capture rates on commercial product.
Lyxen, is there text that supports seeing invisible creatures? I can't actually find any.
Here's some SageAdvice for the interaction with Invisibility.
Summary: Invisibility only makes you invisible. Blindsight is senses without vision, so invisibility is irrelevant, however hiding behind total cover is still an option.
And here's some SageAdvice for the qualia of Blindsight.
Summary: You can perceive your environment, including environmental phenomena. "A person in heavy fog would appear to be surrounded by static".
If we over-simplify "heavy fog" as a purely visual phenomenon equivalent to a magical illusion, then an argument could be made that a character with Blindsight would be able to perceive visual stimulus, but would lack the visual qualia as Lyxen said. Whether or not text on a page would be legible would probably depend on the individual's resolution, but there is very little justification for giving natural blindsight that kind of utility. An aberration might get away with it because they are inherently weird... And, of course, magical blindsight would probably get special treatment.
Ultimately, it's DMs call, but my expectation is that it would be something comparable to thermal vision:
The quality of details would be based on something "other", such as temperature or texture, and some pieces of information would be entirely lost, such as color or local depth. It might make recognizing individuals easier, due to unique thermal/UV/phase-shifting properties, or it could make it harder due to being unable to tell where armor and body transitions are.
(Heat based blindsight might be able to read a book by breathing on the pages. The ink would cause the text to heat/cool at a different rate than the paper itself.)
I would also encourage giving a creature with blindsight some discoverable weakness. For example, Blindsight(thermal) could be masked temporarily by jumping in a cold lake or hiding behind insulative material (Thermal rifle scopes can't see through glass) Whereas Blindsight(hearing) could be defeated with Silence or sustained loud noises. Blindsight is powerful, but also creates some great opportunities for problem solving, if adjusted.
Thanks for the supplementary info...I should note that as a DM i do allow blindsight to see invisible creatures within the limits of the range (and cover), I just didn't explicitly see this in the text for blindsight itself.
does anyone have an opinion on the interaction of say disguise self or any of the image spells and blindsight? Do they fool the creature or can they see through it?
does anyone have an opinion on the interaction of say disguise self or any of the image spells and blindsight? Do they fool the creature or can they see through it?
Hrmm.... this creates some dissonance with what I was proposing earlier. A creature with Blindsight should be able to see through Disguise Self, whereas they wouldn't be able to see through Alter Self. However, seeing through it may only reveal a vague humanoid surrounded by a fuzzy aura. The illusory magic probably doesn't conform the the visible shape, but rather fills the entire medium space, with most of it being transparent.
If you rule that Blindsight grants meaningful details, then I'd think that they'd be able to recognize someone who is disguised, however, since characters can get 10ft Blindsight from the Blind Fighting Feat, I think that they should only be able to see a basic humanoid form. A firbolg disguising themselves as someone 3ft shorter would be obvious, but a Drow disguising themselves as a Human would remain concealed. Just some person.
Ok, so for the sake of gameplay, I'd vote that creatures with Blindsight should be totally oblivious to sight-based illusory magic to avoid the scenario of Blindsight doubling as "Detect Magic" for noticing illusions. They might walk through an illusory wall to the surprise of their party, but they might also not, simply assuming that everyone else knew about the hallway already and were deliberately avoiding it. (In play, it would be difficult to reveal this information to the individual without cluing in the rest of the party.)
Major Image includes sounds, smells, and temperature, so that might be able to work against a creature with blindsight.
Phantasmal Force should definitely work, since the illusion is cognitive, rather than sensory. The target fills in the appropriate details it needs to believe the illusion.
I have always wanted to play a blind character(don’t ask why) but at the same time I also didn’t want him to be useless. Enter, blind sight, however I read several threads on how blind sight worked and discovered that it was somewhat “like echo location but without the clicking”. This got my gears turning and I wondered “Could you read a book with blind sight? Could you see colors? Could you see the details on a persons face? Or was it more like general outlines of things?”.
What do you think?
Unlike Darkvision and Truesight, Blindsight doesn't give you a lot of information about how it works or what limitations are placed on it. A hardline reading of the text would indicate that it functions the same as normal sight, with no additional abilities or drawbacks, and would override the blinded inside its radius. Most people extend blindsight to allow you to see invisible creatures or even illusions based on light (although both of these potentially makes sense, they are unsupported by the text, where they are supported by the text of Truesight). Likewise others impose restrictions on reading written text and seeing color, both of which make sense, but are again, unsupported by the text.
Lyxen, is there text that supports seeing invisible creatures? I can't actually find any.
Here is what we are told:
Not much, but based on wording, I would say you don't get much in the way of detail. Shapes, but no color, etc. So reading is out.
As for seeing invisible, lets check that:
Again not much (there was a bit more, but not about interaction with sight). But since an invisible creature only can't be seen and a creature with blindsight perceives its surroundings without sight, there is nothing about invisibility to suggest blindsight does not perceive it.
Here's some SageAdvice for the interaction with Invisibility.
Summary: Invisibility only makes you invisible. Blindsight is senses without vision, so invisibility is irrelevant, however hiding behind total cover is still an option.
And here's some SageAdvice for the qualia of Blindsight.
Summary: You can perceive your environment, including environmental phenomena. "A person in heavy fog would appear to be surrounded by static".
If we over-simplify "heavy fog" as a purely visual phenomenon equivalent to a magical illusion, then an argument could be made that a character with Blindsight would be able to perceive visual stimulus, but would lack the visual qualia as Lyxen said. Whether or not text on a page would be legible would probably depend on the individual's resolution, but there is very little justification for giving natural blindsight that kind of utility. An aberration might get away with it because they are inherently weird... And, of course, magical blindsight would probably get special treatment.
Ultimately, it's DMs call, but my expectation is that it would be something comparable to thermal vision:
The quality of details would be based on something "other", such as temperature or texture, and some pieces of information would be entirely lost, such as color or local depth. It might make recognizing individuals easier, due to unique thermal/UV/phase-shifting properties, or it could make it harder due to being unable to tell where armor and body transitions are.
(Heat based blindsight might be able to read a book by breathing on the pages. The ink would cause the text to heat/cool at a different rate than the paper itself.)
I would also encourage giving a creature with blindsight some discoverable weakness. For example, Blindsight(thermal) could be masked temporarily by jumping in a cold lake or hiding behind insulative material (Thermal rifle scopes can't see through glass) Whereas Blindsight(hearing) could be defeated with Silence or sustained loud noises. Blindsight is powerful, but also creates some great opportunities for problem solving, if adjusted.
I think the fact that the CR 1/8 poisonous snake (as well as many insects) has Blindsight 10ft should help a DM make informed decisions about the intended limitations of Invisibility with respect to infrared and/or UV.
Lyxen, very cool about the googles!
I was somewhat disappointed when I learned about the legal restriction on IR capture rates on commercial product.
Thanks for the supplementary info...I should note that as a DM i do allow blindsight to see invisible creatures within the limits of the range (and cover), I just didn't explicitly see this in the text for blindsight itself.
does anyone have an opinion on the interaction of say disguise self or any of the image spells and blindsight? Do they fool the creature or can they see through it?
Hrmm.... this creates some dissonance with what I was proposing earlier. A creature with Blindsight should be able to see through Disguise Self, whereas they wouldn't be able to see through Alter Self. However, seeing through it may only reveal a vague humanoid surrounded by a fuzzy aura. The illusory magic probably doesn't conform the the visible shape, but rather fills the entire medium space, with most of it being transparent.
If you rule that Blindsight grants meaningful details, then I'd think that they'd be able to recognize someone who is disguised, however, since characters can get 10ft Blindsight from the Blind Fighting Feat, I think that they should only be able to see a basic humanoid form. A firbolg disguising themselves as someone 3ft shorter would be obvious, but a Drow disguising themselves as a Human would remain concealed. Just some person.
Ok, so for the sake of gameplay, I'd vote that creatures with Blindsight should be totally oblivious to sight-based illusory magic to avoid the scenario of Blindsight doubling as "Detect Magic" for noticing illusions. They might walk through an illusory wall to the surprise of their party, but they might also not, simply assuming that everyone else knew about the hallway already and were deliberately avoiding it. (In play, it would be difficult to reveal this information to the individual without cluing in the rest of the party.)
Major Image includes sounds, smells, and temperature, so that might be able to work against a creature with blindsight.
Phantasmal Force should definitely work, since the illusion is cognitive, rather than sensory. The target fills in the appropriate details it needs to believe the illusion.