Ok. This is probably a stupid question. What happens if you put a bag of holding in another bag of holding? The description mentions that putting the bag inside of a Handy Haversack or Portable hole or similar item creates effectively an "astral plane bomb." What I'm wondering is does a bag of holding count as a similar item in this case?
If it does, what is to stop a party with two Artificers from creating an "astral plane bomb" once per day by making use of the Replicate Magic Item Infusion...at level 2?
So, the description of a bag of holding does not say it creates an extradimensional space, while the two examples given explicitly do say just that, so a possible RAW ruling is that a bag inside another bag does not trigger the “bomb”....but I could also see it ruled that it does, because it’s effectively describing one even if it doesn’t call it that.
if you rule the former, then your two artificers are safe...if the latter, well, a level 2 party is going to have a very hard time surviving in the astral plane, but it could be a fun adventure with them trying to get out
if you rule the former, then your two artificers are safe...if the latter, well, a level 2 party is going to have a very hard time surviving in the astral plane, but it could be a fun adventure with them trying to get out
Would it be possible for an expendable companion (like a steel defender or summoned creature) to do the "dirty work" of setting off the astral bomb far away from the party? Could someone with mage hand do the same?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
if you rule the former, then your two artificers are safe...if the latter, well, a level 2 party is going to have a very hard time surviving in the astral plane, but it could be a fun adventure with them trying to get out
Would it be possible for an expendable companion (like a steel defender or summoned creature) to do the "dirty work" of setting off the astral bomb far away from the party? Could someone with mage hand do the same?
Mage Hand no...the bag always weighs 15 pounds, and the mage hand can't lift more than 10. Summoned Creatures maybe, if they have the ability to manipulate the bags, the intelligence to understand the command, and are forced to obey you. (so beasts, probably not, but others possibly if they meet the criteria)
To the best of my knowledge, intelligence is not directly tied to ability to follow commands. The Steel Defender, for example has an intelligence of 4 but can easily follow commands to Dodge, Attack, Repair, etc. and can take other simple actions available to all creatures like Search, Help, Dash, and Use an Object. So I would think it could unless I have misunderstood something about the Steel Defender.
Placing a bag inside another bag is a lot more of a complicated command to do than or "dodge" or "attack that guy". It is a multi-step process that requires both understanding of several different tasks in sequence (grab this bag, open it, grab that bag, place it inside), and the dexterity to do so. It would also take multiple actions to complete, since you are interacting with more than one item to do so, as the creature likely only has one appendage (its mouth) capable of manipulating the bag in any meaningful way, and even then it probably lacks the dexterity to open it.
As a DM, I would not allow a steel defender to be that intelligent, and since most take the form of beasts, they also (most likely) lack the dexterity (or even the appendages) necessary to complete the task even if they could understand how to do it.
A Steel Defender is not limited to being shaped like a beast. It could very well be humanoid (a robot, if you will). And although I agree it could take multiple actions to do so, I would argue that everything you described falls under the Use an Object action, which is an action any creature can take. A bag of holding is not a particularly complex item either. Even animals, in real life, are capable of learning how to open containers.
All things considered though, this does get away from the initial question. The mechanism by which the "astral bomb" is used is something the party could probably figure out one way or another without teleporting themselves in the process (maybe one bag is planted open and a party member throws a spear into the bag with the other bag attached to the spear, idk). My main concern is the implication that this is a possible strategy for a level 2 party
A Steel Defender is not limited to being shaped like a beast. It could very well be humanoid (a robot, if you will). And although I agree it could take multiple actions to do so, I would argue that everything you described falls under the Use and Object action, which is an action any creature can take. A bag of holding is not a particularly complex item either. Even animals, in real life, are capable of learning how to open containers.
All things considered though, this does get away from the initial question. The mechanism by which the "astral bomb" is used is something the party could probably figure out one way or another without teleporting themselves in the process (maybe one bag is planted open and a party member throws a spear into the bag with the other bag attached to the spear, idk). My main concern is the implication that this is a possible strategy for a level 2 party
I said "most" take the form of beasts...your mileage (and what your DM/you as the DM allows) may vary. I have played (and run games) with many players with steel defenders, all of them chose a quadrupedal form similar to a beast (most recently, a yak and a large cat).
I stand by my requirements from my first or second post. If you as DM allow (or your DM allows) the steel defender to meet the requirements (means to manipulate the bags and intelligence to understand the command, they always obey so they meet the 3rd requirement by default), then they could, over the course of a few turns, place the bag into another bag, and then (if you rule as DM, or if your DM rules) the bags to create the "bomb" it will go off.
So, the description of a bag of holding does not say it creates an extradimensional space, while the two examples given explicitly do say just that, so a possible RAW ruling is that a bag inside another bag does not trigger the “bomb”....but I could also see it ruled that it does, because it’s effectively describing one even if it doesn’t call it that.
First to address this, both the handy haversack and portable hole have the same line about the extra dimensional space created by the bag of holding. I am a little surprised that none of the 3 items refer to a duplicate of themselves, but I think we can be sure that it also applies.
Now on to the... lets call it strategy. I wouldn't allow a less intelligent (and more importantly, expendable) summon to be able to trigger it. Furthermore, it is actually relatively safe in the astral plane. There are a few high level dangers, but the biggest threat is finding a portal to a more dangerous plane. Any decently strong/intelligent creature has a reasonable chance to make it back to the material plane given enough time (several days, but random location). Eventually, they will start encountering enemies capable of seeking revenge (most likely around CR5).
It is definitely something that I would want to discourage.
Regardless of discouraging or dealing with the strategy, I find it a little odd that such a strategy is even possible RAW at such a low level. It would be one thing if a DM was giving the players multiple Bags of Holding early on, but its another entirely when it is tied into the mechanics of a class (and thus its a little more difficult for a DM to actively prevent without stepping on their players' toes).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
DxJxC, I find it odd that they chose to use the actual word "extradimensional" to describe the space of the portable hole and handy haversack, but not the bag of holding, while tying the "astral plane bomb" effect to that specific word (I also take a little issue with having to read the description of another item to fully understand this one), but based on the description in the other two objects, I'd agree the bag can function to create the bomb.
I guess the difference is in who wrote one vs the other, or the bag is an older item that wasn't updated to match the language of the others?
Also...it might be relatively safe in your astral plane...but based on the types of monsters we have available that are native (dreadnaughts, githyanki, etc), I would think a level 2 party would have a pretty severe challenge there. That part is entirely up to the DM though.
Also...it might be relatively safe in your astral plane...but based on the types of monsters we have available that are native (dreadnaughts, githyanki, etc), I would think a level 2 party would have a pretty severe challenge there. That part is entirely up to the DM though.
I did mention that there are high level threats in the astral plane, but their encounter rate would be relatively low. Like encountering a pirate in the middle of the ocean, there are area that have more, but most of the plane has very few.
Psychic wind or color pools leading to worse places are a more likely threat. (IMO, since there hasn't been a book on planes yet and all we have are basics.)
it sends you to a random spot in the astral plane along with everything else close to you but in another point of the astral plane. it could be a sacrifice moment or a new plotline
Placing a bag inside another bag is a lot more of a complicated command to do than or "dodge" or "attack that guy". It is a multi-step process that requires both understanding of several different tasks in sequence (grab this bag, open it, grab that bag, place it inside), and the dexterity to do so. It would also take multiple actions to complete, since you are interacting with more than one item to do so, as the creature likely only has one appendage (its mouth) capable of manipulating the bag in any meaningful way, and even then it probably lacks the dexterity to open it.
As a DM, I would not allow a steel defender to be that intelligent, and since most take the form of beasts, they also (most likely) lack the dexterity (or even the appendages) necessary to complete the task even if they could understand how to do it.
How does attacking someone not have the same complexity, that you say is too complex for it? Work out the steps for attacking someone or something just like you did. It is no different. So if it can attack someone, it can put a bag in a bag. Too complex dexterity wise to put its fist hold a bag into another bag... but it can fight in battle. #facepalm
But there are ways around that anyway. They set their steel defender in place, hole on the 'ground' holding the bag above it. The order comes... "Drop the bag" .
Ok. This is probably a stupid question. What happens if you put a bag of holding in another bag of holding? The description mentions that putting the bag inside of a Handy Haversack or Portable hole or similar item creates effectively an "astral plane bomb." What I'm wondering is does a bag of holding count as a similar item in this case?
If it does, what is to stop a party with two Artificers from creating an "astral plane bomb" once per day by making use of the Replicate Magic Item Infusion...at level 2?
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
IDK... The bag of holding gives off radiation, they accidentally create a bag of devouring?
Enjoy my magic items, spells, monsters, my race, and a few feats. And GIVE ME FEEDBACK... or else.
Like what I say?
⬐ Just press this little guy right here.
So, the description of a bag of holding does not say it creates an extradimensional space, while the two examples given explicitly do say just that, so a possible RAW ruling is that a bag inside another bag does not trigger the “bomb”....but I could also see it ruled that it does, because it’s effectively describing one even if it doesn’t call it that.
if you rule the former, then your two artificers are safe...if the latter, well, a level 2 party is going to have a very hard time surviving in the astral plane, but it could be a fun adventure with them trying to get out
Would it be possible for an expendable companion (like a steel defender or summoned creature) to do the "dirty work" of setting off the astral bomb far away from the party? Could someone with mage hand do the same?
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Mage Hand no...the bag always weighs 15 pounds, and the mage hand can't lift more than 10. Summoned Creatures maybe, if they have the ability to manipulate the bags, the intelligence to understand the command, and are forced to obey you. (so beasts, probably not, but others possibly if they meet the criteria)
To the best of my knowledge, intelligence is not directly tied to ability to follow commands. The Steel Defender, for example has an intelligence of 4 but can easily follow commands to Dodge, Attack, Repair, etc. and can take other simple actions available to all creatures like Search, Help, Dash, and Use an Object. So I would think it could unless I have misunderstood something about the Steel Defender.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Placing a bag inside another bag is a lot more of a complicated command to do than or "dodge" or "attack that guy". It is a multi-step process that requires both understanding of several different tasks in sequence (grab this bag, open it, grab that bag, place it inside), and the dexterity to do so. It would also take multiple actions to complete, since you are interacting with more than one item to do so, as the creature likely only has one appendage (its mouth) capable of manipulating the bag in any meaningful way, and even then it probably lacks the dexterity to open it.
As a DM, I would not allow a steel defender to be that intelligent, and since most take the form of beasts, they also (most likely) lack the dexterity (or even the appendages) necessary to complete the task even if they could understand how to do it.
A Steel Defender is not limited to being shaped like a beast. It could very well be humanoid (a robot, if you will). And although I agree it could take multiple actions to do so, I would argue that everything you described falls under the Use an Object action, which is an action any creature can take. A bag of holding is not a particularly complex item either. Even animals, in real life, are capable of learning how to open containers.
All things considered though, this does get away from the initial question. The mechanism by which the "astral bomb" is used is something the party could probably figure out one way or another without teleporting themselves in the process (maybe one bag is planted open and a party member throws a spear into the bag with the other bag attached to the spear, idk). My main concern is the implication that this is a possible strategy for a level 2 party
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I said "most" take the form of beasts...your mileage (and what your DM/you as the DM allows) may vary. I have played (and run games) with many players with steel defenders, all of them chose a quadrupedal form similar to a beast (most recently, a yak and a large cat).
I stand by my requirements from my first or second post. If you as DM allow (or your DM allows) the steel defender to meet the requirements (means to manipulate the bags and intelligence to understand the command, they always obey so they meet the 3rd requirement by default), then they could, over the course of a few turns, place the bag into another bag, and then (if you rule as DM, or if your DM rules) the bags to create the "bomb" it will go off.
First to address this, both the handy haversack and portable hole have the same line about the extra dimensional space created by the bag of holding. I am a little surprised that none of the 3 items refer to a duplicate of themselves, but I think we can be sure that it also applies.
Now on to the... lets call it strategy. I wouldn't allow a less intelligent (and more importantly, expendable) summon to be able to trigger it. Furthermore, it is actually relatively safe in the astral plane. There are a few high level dangers, but the biggest threat is finding a portal to a more dangerous plane. Any decently strong/intelligent creature has a reasonable chance to make it back to the material plane given enough time (several days, but random location). Eventually, they will start encountering enemies capable of seeking revenge (most likely around CR5).
It is definitely something that I would want to discourage.
Regardless of discouraging or dealing with the strategy, I find it a little odd that such a strategy is even possible RAW at such a low level. It would be one thing if a DM was giving the players multiple Bags of Holding early on, but its another entirely when it is tied into the mechanics of a class (and thus its a little more difficult for a DM to actively prevent without stepping on their players' toes).
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
DxJxC, I find it odd that they chose to use the actual word "extradimensional" to describe the space of the portable hole and handy haversack, but not the bag of holding, while tying the "astral plane bomb" effect to that specific word (I also take a little issue with having to read the description of another item to fully understand this one), but based on the description in the other two objects, I'd agree the bag can function to create the bomb.
I guess the difference is in who wrote one vs the other, or the bag is an older item that wasn't updated to match the language of the others?
Also...it might be relatively safe in your astral plane...but based on the types of monsters we have available that are native (dreadnaughts, githyanki, etc), I would think a level 2 party would have a pretty severe challenge there. That part is entirely up to the DM though.
I did mention that there are high level threats in the astral plane, but their encounter rate would be relatively low. Like encountering a pirate in the middle of the ocean, there are area that have more, but most of the plane has very few.
Psychic wind or color pools leading to worse places are a more likely threat. (IMO, since there hasn't been a book on planes yet and all we have are basics.)
it sends you to a random spot in the astral plane along with everything else close to you but in another point of the astral plane. it could be a sacrifice moment or a new plotline
How does attacking someone not have the same complexity, that you say is too complex for it? Work out the steps for attacking someone or something just like you did. It is no different. So if it can attack someone, it can put a bag in a bag. Too complex dexterity wise to put its fist hold a bag into another bag... but it can fight in battle. #facepalm
But there are ways around that anyway. They set their steel defender in place, hole on the 'ground' holding the bag above it. The order comes... "Drop the bag" .