Last week we had an argument in a DnD Session regarding the spell Summon Greater Demon. I've already read a bunch of other forum posts regarding this spell but in the end we couldn't agree wether it can be used with just an arcane focus if the caster doesn't paint the protective circle on the ground.
So basically the spell uses "a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours".
The first argument that can be made against the possibility of using an arcane focus relates to the "24 hour" part. In Chapter 10 of the Players Handbook it is stated, that an arcane focus can generally replace material components of a spell, "but if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell." Does this timelimit constitute a "cost" of the component or does "cost" specifically refer to components that have a gold value associated with them (e.g. a pearl worth at least 100 gp for Identify)?
The second argument is based on the sentence just below this: "If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell." So it shouldn't be possible to replace components with an arcane focus that are consumed by the spell. However, the description of Summon Greater Demon indicates, that the blood is only consumed by the spell if you pain a protective circle on the ground: "As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. (...) Using the material component in this manner consumes it when the spell ends." Am I correct to assume that this means the component doesn't count as consumed if a character chooses to cast the spell without drawing the protective circle?
I know there has been discussion regarding this topic on other websites and most posts I found seem to conclude it should be possible to cast the spell with an arcane focus if the protective circle isn't drawn, but there are still some contradictory opinions out there. So what way was the spell originally intended to be used?
My reading of this is that the circle is an optional item in the spell description (basically as additional protection when you cast it), so the material component is either an optional component (and not needed if you don't make the circle), or a required component but only consumed if you use it to make the circle (but without cost either way). so I would rule you could cast this two ways:
1) with a focus, but without the circle
2) with the circle, but without a focus (and providing the consumed material component as required)
The "24 hour" part is moot...it doesn't imply cost, but because the material is consumed when used in this way, if you use it to make the circle you have to provide it.
I know there has been discussion regarding this topic on other websites and most posts I found seem to conclude it should be possible to cast the spell with an arcane focus if the protective circle isn't drawn, but there are still some contradictory opinions out there. So what way was the spell originally intended to be used?
If you want to find out original intent, I'd ask sage advice, people here aren't psychic. As written, however, it appears that you can use a focus as long as you aren't drawing the circle.
Honestly, I would consider the life of a humanoid to be a material component with a cost. Just because that cost isn't measured in gp doesn't mean its not a cost, imho.
From a storytelling standpoint, the spell is designed for the classic sacrifice-a-person-as-an-offering type deal. Using the life energy to rip a portal open into the Abyss. It just doesn't feel the same if you don't have the sacrifice.
Honestly, I would consider the life of a humanoid to be a material component with a cost. Just because that cost isn't measured in gp doesn't mean its not a cost, imho.
From a storytelling standpoint, the spell is designed for the classic sacrifice-a-person-as-an-offering type deal. Using the life energy to rip a portal open into the Abyss. It just doesn't feel the same if you don't have the sacrifice.
All things have an inherent value. The rules however, are concerned with a stated cost in gp, not some metaphysical value of a life...Its fine if you want to say this has a cost, but that would be a house-rule per RAW, the component has no listed cost, so a focus can replace it so long as the material isn't consumed. In this case, the material is only consumed if you make the circle.
Honestly, I would consider the life of a humanoid to be a material component with a cost. Just because that cost isn't measured in gp doesn't mean its not a cost, imho.
From a storytelling standpoint, the spell is designed for the classic sacrifice-a-person-as-an-offering type deal. Using the life energy to rip a portal open into the Abyss. It just doesn't feel the same if you don't have the sacrifice.
Wow. Not only am I impressed by this answer, I'm shamed by it. I can't believe I didn't view a life as having a cost. And much like the proper way to play a lawful good paladin, I'm far less concerned with the letter of the law than I am with the spirit. The letter only exists to circumscribe the spirit, and often (or maybe even most of the time) the letter falls short. I don't think I can allow players to use this spell in good faith anymore without the material component.
I wouldn't be surprised if I learned that the game designers absolutely, 100% intended that you must have that vial of blood in order to cast the spell, but the fact that drawing the circle (which is what consumes the vial) is an optional step, I think, justifies the option to cast with a focus instead.
Last week we had an argument in a DnD Session regarding the spell Summon Greater Demon. I've already read a bunch of other forum posts regarding this spell but in the end we couldn't agree wether it can be used with just an arcane focus if the caster doesn't paint the protective circle on the ground.
So basically the spell uses "a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours".
The first argument that can be made against the possibility of using an arcane focus relates to the "24 hour" part. In Chapter 10 of the Players Handbook it is stated, that an arcane focus can generally replace material components of a spell, "but if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell." Does this timelimit constitute a "cost" of the component or does "cost" specifically refer to components that have a gold value associated with them (e.g. a pearl worth at least 100 gp for Identify)?
The second argument is based on the sentence just below this: "If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell." So it shouldn't be possible to replace components with an arcane focus that are consumed by the spell. However, the description of Summon Greater Demon indicates, that the blood is only consumed by the spell if you pain a protective circle on the ground: "As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. (...) Using the material component in this manner consumes it when the spell ends." Am I correct to assume that this means the component doesn't count as consumed if a character chooses to cast the spell without drawing the protective circle?
I know there has been discussion regarding this topic on other websites and most posts I found seem to conclude it should be possible to cast the spell with an arcane focus if the protective circle isn't drawn, but there are still some contradictory opinions out there. So what way was the spell originally intended to be used?
My reading of this is that the circle is an optional item in the spell description (basically as additional protection when you cast it), so the material component is either an optional component (and not needed if you don't make the circle), or a required component but only consumed if you use it to make the circle (but without cost either way). so I would rule you could cast this two ways:
1) with a focus, but without the circle
2) with the circle, but without a focus (and providing the consumed material component as required)
The "24 hour" part is moot...it doesn't imply cost, but because the material is consumed when used in this way, if you use it to make the circle you have to provide it.
I second this answer.
If you want the protection you must consume the material.
If you want to find out original intent, I'd ask sage advice, people here aren't psychic. As written, however, it appears that you can use a focus as long as you aren't drawing the circle.
Honestly, I would consider the life of a humanoid to be a material component with a cost. Just because that cost isn't measured in gp doesn't mean its not a cost, imho.
From a storytelling standpoint, the spell is designed for the classic sacrifice-a-person-as-an-offering type deal. Using the life energy to rip a portal open into the Abyss. It just doesn't feel the same if you don't have the sacrifice.
All things have an inherent value. The rules however, are concerned with a stated cost in gp, not some metaphysical value of a life...Its fine if you want to say this has a cost, but that would be a house-rule per RAW, the component has no listed cost, so a focus can replace it so long as the material isn't consumed. In this case, the material is only consumed if you make the circle.
Edited for Spelling
I third Icon's answer.
Wow. Not only am I impressed by this answer, I'm shamed by it. I can't believe I didn't view a life as having a cost. And much like the proper way to play a lawful good paladin, I'm far less concerned with the letter of the law than I am with the spirit. The letter only exists to circumscribe the spirit, and often (or maybe even most of the time) the letter falls short. I don't think I can allow players to use this spell in good faith anymore without the material component.
You don't think the risk of being torn apart by demons is sufficient karmic justice for trying to get crafty with the rules of magic?
I wouldn't be surprised if I learned that the game designers absolutely, 100% intended that you must have that vial of blood in order to cast the spell, but the fact that drawing the circle (which is what consumes the vial) is an optional step, I think, justifies the option to cast with a focus instead.
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