See, there is the thing.... there is no such thing as 'druid strength.' Druid is a class, not a race. If it is a human druid, I am putting it to you that wolf strength replaces the human strength and that any strength from druid levels (which are retained, since you retain all your knowledge) are on top of that. A normal, untrained human has nothing from ASI's.
And you accept that said belt (or feeblemind spell) are stronger and different than the effects of the wildshape, so that arguably disqualifies them as counter-examples. There is nothing in RAW that actually says which of the two effects would have priority.
By druid here I was referring to a druid of a non-specific race because that race doesn't matter. In a human druid there is no differentiation between the human strength from their race and any strength they have gained from a druid ASI. That is all the same strength. As I have said several times here, the strength of that human druid is not 14+2, it is just 16.
I do not accept that the belt or the spell are stronger or weaker than wildshape. If you put the belt on the human-druid then the belt replaces the human-druid strength. If that belted druid uses wildshape (and merges the belt in) then the wolf strength replaces the human-druid strength. Each effect tells you clearly which attributes belonging to who it can override. The belt overrides whoever is wearing it. The wildshape overrides whoever transforms.
Does that rat have proficiency with a long bow? Can that rat use that long bow?
Does that rat reapply its wisdom ASI again when it wildshapes to have a 14 wis now (as you imply that it should do for str)?
Can that rat use its racial feature to cast a wizard cantrip?
My point with these hypothetical questions is that retaining a benefit does not always make it useful. A benefit may be superseded, and in that event, you have not lost it. Then again, the crazy pills interpretation is that the answer is that the rat is a longbow wielding super wise cantrip blaster.
Just to take these at face value and avoid anyone getting confused:
Does that rat have proficiency with a long bow? YES. Can that rat use that long bow? NO
Does that rat reapply its wisdom ASI again when it wildshapes to have a 14 wis now (as you imply that it should do for str)? NO.
Can that rat use its racial feature to cast a wizard cantrip? NO, but because no wildshape spells until lvl 18, and even then only druid spells.
I am putting it to you that wolf strength replaces the human strength and that any strength from druid levels (which are retained, since you retain all your knowledge) are on top of that.
Except you're wrong. The guy who wrote the rule said so. You can argue that the rule needs an errata (I happen to think "physical stats replaced, mental stats retained" is clear enough, but hey, I guess it can't hurt). You can argue it should work differently. But you can't really argue druids get to re-apply their physical stat ASIs to their beast forms when they Wild Shape, because they don't. Not anymore than they get to re-apply their level 2 and higher hit-point gains to their beast form. Yes, certainly, and argument can be made that maybe they should. That maybe it's a good idea to have them apply their physical stat ASIs to their beast forms. Hell, maybe it's a good idea to have them replace their beast form's "attack stat" with their WIS, kinda like WoW does (or did, haven't played in forever). But that's not how the game works. Yes, I can see how you can weasel your way into interpreting the language used to get that, but the guy who literally wrote the rule said that's not what the rule means. A plain reading of the rule also agrees: you keep your "mental" stats, your "physical" stats get replaced by those of the beast. Those str/dex/con ASIs? They're part of your current "physical" stats, of course, and therefore get replaced, obviously.
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
I love "where's the printed rule?" arguments, they're fun, if useless. Where's the printed rule that says I don't add my HP gains from level 2 and up to the beast's HP total?
That's not how ASIs work. ASIs increase your ability scores when you gain certain levels. The beast form can't use them, because they were already used. They were used, in fact, right when you leveled up. The rule doesn't say "when you reach level 4, you get a continuous boost to a score of your choice", it's not a thing that's "in play" from the point you get it onward. It's a thing you do to your character when you reach a certain point.
But you know this, obviously, since you've read the same rules we all have, and you play the same game we all play, and you're reasonable enough to form coherent sentences, so you're definitely trolling. Fun times.
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
Where are the printed rules which say that the ASI is a continuously-applied modifier, rather than a one-time increase?
If you are going to request that someone points you to a written rule to justify the common opinion, which is backed by the semi-official ruling from JC (who I don't always agree with, by the way), you need to be able to do the same. The ASI doesn't say that you get a +2 or two +1 bonuses to your stats, they say that the stat is increased when you gain that level. That looks like an immediate, one time effect, not an ongoing one which could be applied on top of your wild shape.
If the majority disagree with you, and there are semi-official rulings to back that up, the onus is on you to provide proof. I haven't seen any evidence which would suggest that your stat after an ASI is 12+2 rather than having been permanently increased to 14.
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
Here:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.
Or are you saying that the hypothetical elf-rat can in fact cast its wizard cantrip as a rat?
Your argument is invalid. Casting a wizard cantrip is a (high elf) racial feature, and all racial features are explicitly allowed by your argument. No other part of the wildshape rules can take away a racial, class, or other feature or any part of it. Right?
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
Here:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.
Or are you saying that the hypothetical elf-rat can in fact cast its wizard cantrips as a rat?
Casting is specifically prohibited here:
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
And what you retain is expanded here, with features above and beyond the ' retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies' you cited above:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, , unless your new form also has that sense.
While your class features are retained, that is a more general rule than the one pertaining to your stats. The specific rule for your stats says that they are replaced by those of the beast, except for Wis, Int and Cha.
The only way to interpret this differently that I can see would be to say that an ASI is a continuously applied modifier to your score, but the language of the ASI doesn't support this in my opinion.
On top of this, the common sense argument I made above makes applying your physical ASIs to the beast seem pretty silly.
Your argument is invalid. Casting a wizard cantrip is a racial feature, and all racial features are explicitly allowed by your argument. No other part of the wildshape rules can take away a racial, class, or other feature or any part of it. Right?
Not really. If he is interpreting an ASI as a continuous modifier rather than a one time, permanent increase, then it would fit within the "retain class and racial features" without being disallowed. I disagree with that interpretation, but it would work if that interpretation was valid.
There is another, more specific rule in wild shape which specifically disallows casting spells, though. It's perfectly reasonable for him to say that he believes that the ASI should apply but understands that spellcasting doesn't.
Your argument is invalid. Casting a wizard cantrip is a racial feature, and all racial features are explicitly allowed by your argument. No other part of the wildshape rules can take away a racial, class, or other feature or any part of it. Right?
Not really. If he is interpreting an ASI as a continuous modifier rather than a one time, permanent increase, then it would fit within the "retain class and racial features" without being disallowed. I disagree with that interpretation, but it would work if that interpretation was valid.
There is another, more specific rule in wild shape which specifically disallows casting spells, though. It's perfectly reasonable for him to say that he believes that the ASI should apply but understands that spellcasting doesn't.
I would still argue that whether you think it is continuous or one time, the ability scoreis something that is replaced explicitly above, so in order to continue to think that it applies, you have to ignore the part above that says that you should use the beast's stats. Basically, "I get an ASI because it is a racial or class feature" means that any racial or class feature should continue to function, right?
I love "where's the printed rule?" arguments, they're fun, if useless. Where's the printed rule that says I don't add my HP gains from level 2 and up to the beast's HP total?
That's not how ASIs work. ASIs increase your ability scores when you gain certain levels. The beast form can't use them, because they were already used. They were used, in fact, right when you leveled up. The rule doesn't say "when you reach level 4, you get a continuous boost to a score of your choice", it's not a thing that's "in play" from the point you get it onward. It's a thing you do to your character when you reach a certain point.
But you know this, obviously, since you've read the same rules we all have, and you play the same game we all play, and you're reasonable enough to form coherent sentences, so you're definitely trolling. Fun times.
And I love reactionary "there's no printed rules on that, because that's just not how it works" responses. I know not to add my Druid HP gains to my beast's HP total, because there are printed rules in the second bullet point which direct me to instead assume the Beast's hit die and hit point maximum. Trying to equate a class features that says "increase your Constitution score by +2", with gaining hit points based on hit die... it's apples and oranges, and not a very persuasive. Hit points are the rolled (or averaged) total of Hit Die. Why would you add hit points from druid hit die to beast hit points from beast hit die? That's "just not how it works." Meanwhile, adding a +2 to increase a Beast's Constitution is.... exactly how an ASI works.
There is no argument opposing using the beast's physical stats as written that makes sense logistically. There may be a linguistic basis for some of the ideas (ASIs are class features, true, but they are not bonuses to stats, they are changes to them), but none that actually make practical functional game sense. We've talked through all the ideas. The fact that you replace your "game statistics" but retain "class, race, and other features" can lead to incongruous situations. Which wins? Well, I guess that's up to your DM. What is the difference? Again, I guess that's up to your DM.
But it certainly is a bad faith argument to claim that the rules expect you to do something that provides no benefit and is not explained at all, or to assume that something as complex as changing the statistics of a beast with arbitrarily derived bonuses that are presented as static values wouldn't be explained if the rules actually expected you to try to attempt that process.
And yes, I realize this is not an argument about whether wild shape allows you to keep your ASIs. It is the argument that even if it did, it wouldn't matter. "a different discussion" is a bad faith change of subject.
I'm hearing a lot of talk about ASI being a past one-time increase to what your score was at that time, and not a persisting ingredient within your stat total. The PHB doesn't really have a section that would split that hair, and talk about whether your "20 strength" is just a dumb number, or a sum of features added to a base statistic. I don't think dndbeyond formatting has any persuasive authority, but hey, for what it's worth, dndbeyond thinks it's a sum which seperately tracks an always-applying 15 base score, 2 racial, 2 feat, etc... that's how I've always played it too. When I take an ASI, I write it down on my character sheet (level 4: ASI +2 Con), an enduring class feature I earned at level up. Are there really people that just increase their Consitution score but then destroy any record of when or why? That's insane.
If you really take the position that an ASI "has increased" but does not continue to "increase" your ability score (which is in my view contratextual, or at the very least, certainly not required to be written that way), I see where you're coming from that it is not a class feature you have any longer. But I reject that reading, its counter-intuitive to treat ASI as different from feats, and also makes absolutely no sense for half-stat feats, which very clearly are enduring class features, and which always and forever have their increase right there within the description of the feat. You're hinging an interpretation of Wild Shape, which has no textual support within Wild Shape, on an interpretation of ASI and Ability Scores in general, which also has no textual support within THOSE sections.
It's just... making unwritten rules up, all the way down. "That's just how it works" is bullshit, when you can't find a single printed sentence anywhere that says that's how it works. "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast," yeah, duh, obviously. But that doesn't in any way support your argument, since my own also starts from that exact same position, and doesn't contradict those words in any way.
I love "where's the printed rule?" arguments, they're fun, if useless. Where's the printed rule that says I don't add my HP gains from level 2 and up to the beast's HP total?
That's not how ASIs work. ASIs increase your ability scores when you gain certain levels. The beast form can't use them, because they were already used. They were used, in fact, right when you leveled up. The rule doesn't say "when you reach level 4, you get a continuous boost to a score of your choice", it's not a thing that's "in play" from the point you get it onward. It's a thing you do to your character when you reach a certain point.
But you know this, obviously, since you've read the same rules we all have, and you play the same game we all play, and you're reasonable enough to form coherent sentences, so you're definitely trolling. Fun times.
And I love reactionary "there's no printed rules on that, because that's just not how it works" responses. I know not to add my Druid HP gains to my beast's HP total, because there are printed rules in the second bullet point which direct me to instead assume the Beast's hit die and hit point maximum. Trying to equate a class features that says "increase your Constitution score by +2", with gaining hit points based on hit die... it's apples and oranges, and not a very persuasive. Hit points are the rolled (or averaged) total of Hit Die. Why would you add hit points from druid hit die to beast hit points from beast hit die? That's "just not how it works." Meanwhile, adding a +2 to increase a Beast's Constitution is.... exactly how an ASI works.
Bad faith arguments are bad.
Again, that's only the case of you consider that your stats are the ones you started your character with and ASIs are a continuously applied bonus on top of that. If that were the case, you would replace your starting stats with the beast stats, but apply the ASIs on top of that.
However, that's not how the ASI is worded. They are worded, in my opinion, as a one time increase, which leaves your stats as those which have already been increased. You cannot apply them again, because they have already been used and applied that one time. You only apply them on leveling.
I guess if you were wild shaped at the point where you leveled up, you could probably apply that increase to the wild shape instead of your main stats if you wanted. I'm not sure why you would want to, as you'd lose them when you lost the shape, but you could.
If you really take the position that an ASI "has increased" but does not continue to "increase" your ability score (which is in my view contratextual, but certainly not required to be written that way), I see where you're coming from that it is not a class feature you have any longer. But I reject that reading, its counter-intuitive to treat ASI as different from feats, and also makes absolutely no sense for half-stat feats, which very clearly are enduring class features, and which always and forever have their increase right there within the description of the feat. You're hinging an interpretation of Wild Shape, which has no textual support within Wild Shape, on an interpretation of ASI and Ability Scores in general, which also has no textual support within THOSE sections.
Why would you treat an ASI in wisdom differently than you would in strength? Why would you apply an ASI to strength to your character's stat and the beast form's stat and not apply the one from wisdom twice as well? Why should an ASI in your physical stats provide double benefit?
Again, that's only the case of you consider that your stats are the ones you started your character with and ASIs are a continuously applied bonus on top of that. If that were the case, you would replace your starting stats with the beast stats, but apply the ASIs on top of that.
However, that's not how the ASI is worded. They are worded, in my opinion, as a one time increase, which leaves your stats as those which have already been increased. You cannot apply them again, because they have already been used and applied that one time. You only apply them on leveling.
I guess if you were wild shaped at the point where you leveled up, you could probably apply that increase to the wild shape instead of your main stats if you wanted. I'm not sure why you would want to, as you'd lose them when you lost the shape, but you could.
Other than a difference in opinion, what is the wording that makes you so certain that ASI are RAW a one-time increase, instead of possibly being a +2 that persistently increases your score for the life of your character?
Thought experiment: you're a level 20 wizard, who by now has a 20 intelligence and 20 constitution from feats you've taken through your wizard levels. You Wish to be a level 1 wizard again, fully expecting to lose your level 2-20 Wizard features. Do you expect your DM to let you keep 20 Intelligence and 20 Constitution, once the levels that supported those feats go up in smoke?
Why would you treat an ASI in wisdom differently than you would in strength? Why would you apply an ASI to strength to your character's stat and the beast form's stat and not apply the one from wisdom twice as well? Why should an ASI in your physical stats provide double benefit?
I'm not treating them differently. Your beast form is permitted to benefit from both. You are benefiting from your Wisdom +2, because you still have the humanoid wisdom score which includes it in its total, no need to apply it a second time to benefit. But while you're a Tiger, you don't have the humanoid Constitution total that your Constitution +2 benefits, so to continue to benefit from that class feature, it must be added to your Tiger Con. There's no inconsistency there, you're receiving a +2 benefit from both features.
Why would you treat an ASI in wisdom differently than you would in strength? Why would you apply an ASI to strength to your character's stat and the beast form's stat and not apply the one from wisdom twice as well? Why should an ASI in your physical stats provide double benefit?
I'm not treating them differently. Your beast form is permitted to benefit from both. You are benefiting from your Wisdom +2, because you still have the humanoid wisdom score which includes it in its total, no need to apply it and benefit from it a second time. But while you're a Tiger, you don't have the humanoid Constitution total that your Constitution +2 benefits, so to continue to benefit from that class feature, it must be added to your Tiger Con. There's no inconsistency there, you're receiving a +2 benefit from both features.
So, again, You are permitted to benefit from your elf racial ability to cast a spell as a rat?
Wild shape asks you to put away your physical stats and use the beasts, just like it tells you that you cannot cast spells. Again, you retain the bonus to you strength, even if you can't use it. Applying it again would be exactly that: double dipping.
Why should an ASI in str continue to apply in your caster form AND ALSO apply your beast form?
I'm hearing a lot of talk about ASI being a past one-time increase to what your score was at that time, and not a persisting ingredient within your stat total. The PHB doesn't really have a section that would split that hair, and talk about whether your "20 strength" is just a dumb number, or a sum of features added to a base statistic. I don't think dndbeyond formatting has any persuasive authority, but hey, for what it's worth, dndbeyond thinks it's a sum which seperately tracks an always-applying 15 base score, 2 racial, 2 feat, etc... that's how I've always played it too. When I take an ASI, I write it down on my character sheet (level 4: ASI +2 Con), an enduring class feature I earned at level up. Are there really people that just increase their Consitution score but then destroy any record of when or why? That's insane.
If you really take the position that an ASI "has increased" but does not continue to "increase" your ability score (which is in my view contratextual, but certainly not required to be written that way), I see where you're coming from that it is not a class feature you have any longer. But I reject that reading, its counter-intuitive to treat ASI as different from feats, and also makes absolutely no sense for half-stat feats, which very clearly are enduring class features, and which always and forever have their increase right there within the description of the feat. You're hinging an interpretation of Wild Shape, which has no textual support within Wild Shape, on an interpretation of ASI and Ability Scores in general, which also has no textual support within THOSE sections.
It's just... making unwritten rules up, all the way down. "That's just how it works" is bullshit, when you can't find a single printed sentence anywhere that says that's how it works. "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast," yeah, duh, obviously. But that doesn't in any way support your argument, since my own also starts from that exact same position, and doesn't contradict those words in any way.
This is maddening.
I would also note down that I took an ASI at that level. However, I would still say that it had been applied, it is not a continuous effect but a one time, permanent increase to your stat.
"When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1."
You can increase. Not you get a bonus or a modifier to your score. That stat is permanently increased by that amount as a one off at leveling.
Now, as for the DDB character sheet, I would code it that way too. I think most people using pen and paper would just erase the old score and write in the new one.
I'll also mention again the common sense argument: your strength has increased because you have been using and training your body and built up muscles. When you wild shape, you no longer have that body or those muscles, you have the body of the beast you shaped into. It is just silly to think that the rat body you assume has bulging biceps just because you do.
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By druid here I was referring to a druid of a non-specific race because that race doesn't matter. In a human druid there is no differentiation between the human strength from their race and any strength they have gained from a druid ASI. That is all the same strength. As I have said several times here, the strength of that human druid is not 14+2, it is just 16.
I do not accept that the belt or the spell are stronger or weaker than wildshape. If you put the belt on the human-druid then the belt replaces the human-druid strength. If that belted druid uses wildshape (and merges the belt in) then the wolf strength replaces the human-druid strength. Each effect tells you clearly which attributes belonging to who it can override. The belt overrides whoever is wearing it. The wildshape overrides whoever transforms.
Just to take these at face value and avoid anyone getting confused:
Except you're wrong. The guy who wrote the rule said so. You can argue that the rule needs an errata (I happen to think "physical stats replaced, mental stats retained" is clear enough, but hey, I guess it can't hurt). You can argue it should work differently. But you can't really argue druids get to re-apply their physical stat ASIs to their beast forms when they Wild Shape, because they don't. Not anymore than they get to re-apply their level 2 and higher hit-point gains to their beast form. Yes, certainly, and argument can be made that maybe they should. That maybe it's a good idea to have them apply their physical stat ASIs to their beast forms. Hell, maybe it's a good idea to have them replace their beast form's "attack stat" with their WIS, kinda like WoW does (or did, haven't played in forever). But that's not how the game works. Yes, I can see how you can weasel your way into interpreting the language used to get that, but the guy who literally wrote the rule said that's not what the rule means. A plain reading of the rule also agrees: you keep your "mental" stats, your "physical" stats get replaced by those of the beast. Those str/dex/con ASIs? They're part of your current "physical" stats, of course, and therefore get replaced, obviously.
You can argue it, because "the guy who wrote the rule said so" isn't a valid written rule source, and it's debatable whether JC really "wrote the rule" singlehandedly like people mythologize. The written rule says you do, JC opines that you shouldn't. Stop trying to invalidate dissenting opinions, which are clearly coming from a position of textual analysis and close reading, as if we're simply making stuff up out of thin air.
Where. Are. The. PRINTED. Rules. That. Say. You. Don't. Add. Class. Features. To. Beast. Ability. Scores?
Answer: No such printed rule exists. You (and Jeremy Crawford) are wrong, though "you can argue that the rule needs an errata" if you think that rule ought to exist, or is implied by unwritten language.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I love "where's the printed rule?" arguments, they're fun, if useless. Where's the printed rule that says I don't add my HP gains from level 2 and up to the beast's HP total?
That's not how ASIs work. ASIs increase your ability scores when you gain certain levels. The beast form can't use them, because they were already used. They were used, in fact, right when you leveled up. The rule doesn't say "when you reach level 4, you get a continuous boost to a score of your choice", it's not a thing that's "in play" from the point you get it onward. It's a thing you do to your character when you reach a certain point.
But you know this, obviously, since you've read the same rules we all have, and you play the same game we all play, and you're reasonable enough to form coherent sentences, so you're definitely trolling. Fun times.
Where are the printed rules which say that the ASI is a continuously-applied modifier, rather than a one-time increase?
If you are going to request that someone points you to a written rule to justify the common opinion, which is backed by the semi-official ruling from JC (who I don't always agree with, by the way), you need to be able to do the same. The ASI doesn't say that you get a +2 or two +1 bonuses to your stats, they say that the stat is increased when you gain that level. That looks like an immediate, one time effect, not an ongoing one which could be applied on top of your wild shape.
If the majority disagree with you, and there are semi-official rulings to back that up, the onus is on you to provide proof. I haven't seen any evidence which would suggest that your stat after an ASI is 12+2 rather than having been permanently increased to 14.
Here:
Or are you saying that the hypothetical elf-rat can in fact cast its wizard cantrip as a rat?
Your argument is invalid. Casting a wizard cantrip is a (high elf) racial feature, and all racial features are explicitly allowed by your argument. No other part of the wildshape rules can take away a racial, class, or other feature or any part of it. Right?
While your class features are retained, that is a more general rule than the one pertaining to your stats. The specific rule for your stats says that they are replaced by those of the beast, except for Wis, Int and Cha.
The only way to interpret this differently that I can see would be to say that an ASI is a continuously applied modifier to your score, but the language of the ASI doesn't support this in my opinion.
On top of this, the common sense argument I made above makes applying your physical ASIs to the beast seem pretty silly.
Not really. If he is interpreting an ASI as a continuous modifier rather than a one time, permanent increase, then it would fit within the "retain class and racial features" without being disallowed. I disagree with that interpretation, but it would work if that interpretation was valid.
There is another, more specific rule in wild shape which specifically disallows casting spells, though. It's perfectly reasonable for him to say that he believes that the ASI should apply but understands that spellcasting doesn't.
I would still argue that whether you think it is continuous or one time, the ability scoreis something that is replaced explicitly above, so in order to continue to think that it applies, you have to ignore the part above that says that you should use the beast's stats. Basically, "I get an ASI because it is a racial or class feature" means that any racial or class feature should continue to function, right?
And I love reactionary "there's no printed rules on that, because that's just not how it works" responses. I know not to add my Druid HP gains to my beast's HP total, because there are printed rules in the second bullet point which direct me to instead assume the Beast's hit die and hit point maximum. Trying to equate a class features that says "increase your Constitution score by +2", with gaining hit points based on hit die... it's apples and oranges, and not a very persuasive. Hit points are the rolled (or averaged) total of Hit Die. Why would you add hit points from druid hit die to beast hit points from beast hit die? That's "just not how it works." Meanwhile, adding a +2 to increase a Beast's Constitution is.... exactly how an ASI works.
Bad faith arguments are bad.
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Irony.
There is no argument opposing using the beast's physical stats as written that makes sense logistically. There may be a linguistic basis for some of the ideas (ASIs are class features, true, but they are not bonuses to stats, they are changes to them), but none that actually make practical functional game sense. We've talked through all the ideas. The fact that you replace your "game statistics" but retain "class, race, and other features" can lead to incongruous situations. Which wins? Well, I guess that's up to your DM. What is the difference? Again, I guess that's up to your DM.
But it certainly is a bad faith argument to claim that the rules expect you to do something that provides no benefit and is not explained at all, or to assume that something as complex as changing the statistics of a beast with arbitrarily derived bonuses that are presented as static values wouldn't be explained if the rules actually expected you to try to attempt that process.
And yes, I realize this is not an argument about whether wild shape allows you to keep your ASIs. It is the argument that even if it did, it wouldn't matter. "a different discussion" is a bad faith change of subject.
I'm hearing a lot of talk about ASI being a past one-time increase to what your score was at that time, and not a persisting ingredient within your stat total. The PHB doesn't really have a section that would split that hair, and talk about whether your "20 strength" is just a dumb number, or a sum of features added to a base statistic. I don't think dndbeyond formatting has any persuasive authority, but hey, for what it's worth, dndbeyond thinks it's a sum which seperately tracks an always-applying 15 base score, 2 racial, 2 feat, etc... that's how I've always played it too. When I take an ASI, I write it down on my character sheet (level 4: ASI +2 Con), an enduring class feature I earned at level up. Are there really people that just increase their Consitution score but then destroy any record of when or why? That's insane.
If you really take the position that an ASI "has increased" but does not continue to "increase" your ability score (which is in my view contratextual, or at the very least, certainly not required to be written that way), I see where you're coming from that it is not a class feature you have any longer. But I reject that reading, its counter-intuitive to treat ASI as different from feats, and also makes absolutely no sense for half-stat feats, which very clearly are enduring class features, and which always and forever have their increase right there within the description of the feat. You're hinging an interpretation of Wild Shape, which has no textual support within Wild Shape, on an interpretation of ASI and Ability Scores in general, which also has no textual support within THOSE sections.
It's just... making unwritten rules up, all the way down. "That's just how it works" is bullshit, when you can't find a single printed sentence anywhere that says that's how it works. "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast," yeah, duh, obviously. But that doesn't in any way support your argument, since my own also starts from that exact same position, and doesn't contradict those words in any way.
This is maddening.
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Again, that's only the case of you consider that your stats are the ones you started your character with and ASIs are a continuously applied bonus on top of that. If that were the case, you would replace your starting stats with the beast stats, but apply the ASIs on top of that.
However, that's not how the ASI is worded. They are worded, in my opinion, as a one time increase, which leaves your stats as those which have already been increased. You cannot apply them again, because they have already been used and applied that one time. You only apply them on leveling.
I guess if you were wild shaped at the point where you leveled up, you could probably apply that increase to the wild shape instead of your main stats if you wanted. I'm not sure why you would want to, as you'd lose them when you lost the shape, but you could.
Why would you treat an ASI in wisdom differently than you would in strength? Why would you apply an ASI to strength to your character's stat and the beast form's stat and not apply the one from wisdom twice as well? Why should an ASI in your physical stats provide double benefit?
Other than a difference in opinion, what is the wording that makes you so certain that ASI are RAW a one-time increase, instead of possibly being a +2 that persistently increases your score for the life of your character?
Thought experiment: you're a level 20 wizard, who by now has a 20 intelligence and 20 constitution from feats you've taken through your wizard levels. You Wish to be a level 1 wizard again, fully expecting to lose your level 2-20 Wizard features. Do you expect your DM to let you keep 20 Intelligence and 20 Constitution, once the levels that supported those feats go up in smoke?
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I'm not treating them differently. Your beast form is permitted to benefit from both. You are benefiting from your Wisdom +2, because you still have the humanoid wisdom score which includes it in its total, no need to apply it a second time to benefit. But while you're a Tiger, you don't have the humanoid Constitution total that your Constitution +2 benefits, so to continue to benefit from that class feature, it must be added to your Tiger Con. There's no inconsistency there, you're receiving a +2 benefit from both features.
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So, again, You are permitted to benefit from your elf racial ability to cast a spell as a rat?
Wild shape asks you to put away your physical stats and use the beasts, just like it tells you that you cannot cast spells. Again, you retain the bonus to you strength, even if you can't use it. Applying it again would be exactly that: double dipping.
Why should an ASI in str continue to apply in your caster form AND ALSO apply your beast form?
I would also note down that I took an ASI at that level. However, I would still say that it had been applied, it is not a continuous effect but a one time, permanent increase to your stat.
"When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1."
You can increase. Not you get a bonus or a modifier to your score. That stat is permanently increased by that amount as a one off at leveling.
Now, as for the DDB character sheet, I would code it that way too. I think most people using pen and paper would just erase the old score and write in the new one.
I'll also mention again the common sense argument: your strength has increased because you have been using and training your body and built up muscles. When you wild shape, you no longer have that body or those muscles, you have the body of the beast you shaped into. It is just silly to think that the rat body you assume has bulging biceps just because you do.