Wow. This thread more than doubled in length overnight. Are people still arguing whether or not going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect counts as entering the area of effect?
As far as I can tell, one person still believes you can teleport into the middle of a Whirlwind and not trigger the 'first time on a turn' effect Because Reasons, but they've avoided clarifying whether they think that also applies to AoEs like Blade Barrier despite identical language in both spells.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wow. This thread more than doubled in length overnight. Are people still arguing whether or not going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect counts as entering the area of effect?
I don't think anyone ever argued that?
Edit: Summary again since you must have missed it:
Nothing in PAM changes the OA trigger requirements in a way that would override the text about teleportation not triggering OAs.
"Enters" means moves into
"Leaves" means moves out of
Teleportation is not movement. Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn.
In combat you have action, maybe a bonus action (plus a free interact)...and move. The move is what can potentially trigger opportunity attacks. Nothing else does unless specified as an exception.
Again, only movement provokes opportunity attacks, more supporting evidence found within Disengage Action "If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn."
Hypothetically if some ability or effect out there was to give you a teleportation movement speed, or allow you to teleport on your move during your turn, then that specific teleportation would be movement. I know of no such instances.
Bonus: (Whirlwind is worded differently from many other persistent AOE effects and being inside it doesn't continue to damage you every round. This tangent is also very off topic.)
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Moving into an area of effect spell is entering it. Pretty sure everyone agree on this. No one here is saying otherwise. I'm certainly not.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Moving into an area of effect spell is entering it. Pretty sure everyone agree on this. No one here is saying otherwise. I'm certainly not.
You are absolutely trying to argue that "going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect" does not count as "entering the area of effect".
Wow. This thread more than doubled in length overnight. Are people still arguing whether or not going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect counts as entering the area of effect?
...
"Enters" means moves into
"Leaves" means moves out of
Teleportation is not movement. Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn.
...
These three points is you trying to do that, by inventing a peculiar definition of the word "enter" using the word "move", then linking that to the concept of a movement allowance or "your move" as defined in the rules.
Entering an area via teleportion is still entering an area. It is going from an outside point to an inside point. Entering. It bypasses OAs because it says it does in the rules. It doesn't bypass Whirlwinds because it doesn't say it does.
Movement is still movement, even if it doesn't use up any of "your move". Whether teleportion counts as movement at all is not relevant to either the OA discussion nor the Whirlwind tangent.
Moving into an area of effect spell is entering it. Pretty sure everyone agree on this. No one here is saying otherwise. I'm certainly not.
You are absolutely trying to argue that "going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect" does not count as "entering the area of effect".
No. I am not arguing that. Bit too broad of a statement there. That includes all instances of moving, transportation, teleportation, forced movement etc. No, I'm not arguing that at all.
Wow. This thread more than doubled in length overnight. Are people still arguing whether or not going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect counts as entering the area of effect?
...
"Enters" means moves into
"Leaves" means moves out of
Teleportation is not movement. Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn.
...
These three points is you trying to do that, by inventing a peculiar definition of the word "enter" using the word "move", then linking that to the concept of a movement allowance or "your move" as defined in the rules.
Entering an area via teleportion is still entering an area. It is going from an outside point to an inside point. Entering. It bypasses OAs because it says it does in the rules. It doesn't bypass Whirlwinds because it doesn't say it does.
Movement is still movement, even if it doesn't use up any of "your move". Whether teleportion counts as movement at all is not relevant to either the OA discussion nor the Whirlwind tangent.
I for sure am arguing that moving into a space is entering that space. Yes. Obviously. If you move into a space, you have entered that space. 100%
The plain English meaning of "Enters" is to go into or move into. I'm not "inventing" anything. It is a movement-linked verb that describes moving into something. Enters means move into. 100%
And yes, I am also arguing that Teleportation is not movement. There is no teleportation speeds, nor can you teleport with your move on your turn. Teleportation isn't movement. For sure 100%.
So, yes, the combination of these points means you don't "enter a space when you teleport, you just change from not in it to suddenly being in it. Does that make sense? Not normally. But, teleportation is magic. Specifically the magic of: not being in a place and then suddenly being in it.
It all checks out, there are no holes in this reasoning. If there are I'd love to hear them.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nothing in PAM changes the OA trigger requirements in a way that would override the text about teleportation not triggering OAs.
"Enters" means moves into
"Leaves" means moves out of
Teleportation is not movement. Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn.
In combat you have action, maybe a bonus action (plus a free interact)...and move. The move is what can potentially trigger opportunity attacks. Nothing else does unless specified as an exception.
Again, only movement provokes opportunity attacks, more supporting evidence found within Disengage Action "If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn."
Hypothetically if some ability or effect out there was to give you a teleportation movement speed, or allow you to teleport on your move during your turn, then that specific teleportation would be movement. I know of no such instances.
Bonus: (Whirlwind is worded differently from many other persistent AOE effects and being inside it doesn't continue to damage you every round. This tangent is also very off topic.)
That bullet of yours uses "movement" in two different ways (to refer to the concept of "movement" from one square to another, and also the specific rule system of character movement from your movement pool or other move-granting actions, bonus actions, and reactions). Teleportation effects indeed rarely (maybe never?) use your character speed/movement pool. But 5E does treat teleportation into and out of spaces as "movement" (see e.g. Compelled Duel and the SAC advise on it), and it generally triggers other interactions that look for movement. The reason Teleportation doesn't trigger OAs specifically is not because it isn't "movement" into/out of a reach, but simply because OAs specifically do not trigger on teleportation as a general rule, just like they specifically do not trigger on any movement that doesn't use your character's movement pool, action, bonus action, or reaction. Your statement that OAs aren't triggered by non-movement-pool movement unless specifically stated otherwise is false, as any other non-movement-pool movement that you might make using your action, reaction, or bonus action would provoke OAs, even if it didn't say so, unless it said it didn't.
Your hypothetical teleport-during-movement ability is a great example of why it's important to remember that teleportation never provokes an OA, not because it isn't "movement", but rather because teleportation does not provoke OAs no matter what.
Nothing in PAM changes the OA trigger requirements in a way that would override the text about teleportation not triggering OAs.
"Enters" means moves into
"Leaves" means moves out of
Teleportation is not movement. Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn.
In combat you have action, maybe a bonus action (plus a free interact)...and move. The move is what can potentially trigger opportunity attacks. Nothing else does unless specified as an exception.
Again, only movement provokes opportunity attacks, more supporting evidence found within Disengage Action "If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn."
Hypothetically if some ability or effect out there was to give you a teleportation movement speed, or allow you to teleport on your move during your turn, then that specific teleportation would be movement. I know of no such instances.
Bonus: (Whirlwind is worded differently from many other persistent AOE effects and being inside it doesn't continue to damage you every round. This tangent is also very off topic.)
That bullet of yours uses "movement" in two different ways (to refer to the concept of "movement" from one square to another, and also the specific rule system of character movement from your movement pool or other move-granting actions, bonus actions, and reactions).
That's the same thing. Movement doesn't have multiple different meanings based on whim, it's one game term.
Teleportation effects indeed rarely (maybe never?) use your character speed/movement pool.
Correct. Because its not movement.
But 5E does treat teleportation into and out of spaces as "movement" (see e.g. Compelled Duel and the SAC advise on it), and it generally triggers other interactions that look for movement.
No. But I can see why you might infer that.Compelled Duel prevents you from teleporting away because it is a mind control effect that compels you to get closer and fight. You're unable to even consider the notion of wanting to be further away. "the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand" The intent here is super clear what the spell is doing. Trying to circumnavigate the mind-compulsion with teleportation is not what was intended. So I totally agree with that SAC advice. This really doesn't have anything to do with whether teleportation is movement or not though. It isn't.
The reason Teleportation doesn't trigger OAs specifically is not because it isn't "movement" into/out of a reach, but simply because OAs specifically do not trigger on teleportation as a general rule, just like they specifically do not trigger on any movement that doesn't use your character's movement pool, action, bonus action, or reaction.
Oh yeah it's explicitly not triggering OAs for a few reasons. Including the fact it isn't movement.
Your statement that OAs aren't triggered by non-movement-pool movement unless specifically stated otherwise is false, as any other non-movement-pool movement that you might make using your action, reaction, or bonus action would provoke OAs, even if it didn't say so, unless it said it didn't.
Hmm, care to provide an example? I'm not aware of a non-movement movement. But if you know some that'd be super fascinating.
Your hypothetical teleport-during-movement ability is a great example of why it's important to remember that teleportation never provokes an OA, not because it isn't "movement", but rather because teleportation does not provoke OAs no matter what.
Well, it's also to highlight that teleportation isn't movement. Because it doesn't have a listed speed, nor is it done with your move.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Chapter 8: Adventuring, has a whole breakdown on movement, speeds, pacing etc. One of the sections talks all about special types of movements.
Special Types of Movement
Movement through dangerous dungeons or wilderness areas often involves more than simply walking. Adventurers might have to climb, crawl, swim, or jump to get where they need to go.
It then goes on to describe all these various types of movement. Absent from the entire chapter? The word "teleport". It isn't a type of movement.
Even in normal usage of the word... if teleportation was somehow real in our world. it wouldn't be movement either.
Movement is motion, motion has speed, and teleportation is specifically lacking speed. Being at point A and then suddenly instead being at point B. There is no speed, and without speed there is no motion.
Motion
noun
the process of continual change in the physical location of an object; movement: linear motion Related adjective: kinetic
Movement is linear motion. Motion has speed. Speed is the rate of that continual change in position.
Like, teleportation is fundamentally not movement. Both in normal English words, but also in game terms.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hmm, care to provide an example? I'm not aware of a non-movement movement. But if you know some that'd be super fascinating.
Sure.
A Barbarian's optional Instinctive Pounce provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
A Scout Rogue's Skirmisher reaction provides movement with their Reaction that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool (and indeed, often isn't on their own turn). It would provoke an Opportunity Attack, except that it specifically says that it does not as an exception. The reaction granted by a friendly Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Attack is similar.
A Horizon Walker Ranger's Distant Strike provides 10 foot teleportation hops between attacks during an Attack action that aren't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that teleportation specifically does not provoke Opportunity Attacks as an exception.
A Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic provides 10 foot flying moves immediately before or after a spell is cast. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that the feature specifically says that they do not as an exception.
An Orc's Aggressive provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
A Ready action may be taken to allow you to move with your Reaction during someone else's turn. That movement would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
Dissonant Whispers causes an enemy to immediately use its reaction to move away from you. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
----
Some of these features provide flat distance, while others provide distance defined by your character's speed, but either way they are discrete movements that take place as part of an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction that are not the same as your other movement during your turn using your divisible pool of movement defined by your speed. All of them provoke Opportunity Attacks unless they say they don't, not vice versa.
That bullet of yours uses "movement" in two different ways (to refer to the concept of "movement" from one square to another, and also the specific rule system of character movement from your movement pool or other move-granting actions, bonus actions, and reactions).
That's the same thing. Movement doesn't have multiple different meanings based on whim, it's one game term.
Teleportation effects indeed rarely (maybe never?) use your character speed/movement pool.
Correct. Because its not movement.
But 5E does treat teleportation into and out of spaces as "movement" (see e.g. Compelled Duel and the SAC advise on it), and it generally triggers other interactions that look for movement.
No. But I can see why you might infer that.Compelled Duel prevents you from teleporting away because it is a mind control effect that compels you to get closer and fight. You're unable to even consider the notion of wanting to be further away. "the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand" The intent here is super clear what the spell is doing. Trying to circumnavigate the mind-compulsion with teleportation is not what was intended. So I totally agree with that SAC advice. This really doesn't have anything to do with whether teleportation is movement or not though. It isn't.
The reason Teleportation doesn't trigger OAs specifically is not because it isn't "movement" into/out of a reach, but simply because OAs specifically do not trigger on teleportation as a general rule, just like they specifically do not trigger on any movement that doesn't use your character's movement pool, action, bonus action, or reaction.
Oh yeah it's explicitly not triggering OAs for a few reasons. Including the fact it isn't movement.
Your statement that OAs aren't triggered by non-movement-pool movement unless specifically stated otherwise is false, as any other non-movement-pool movement that you might make using your action, reaction, or bonus action would provoke OAs, even if it didn't say so, unless it said it didn't.
Hmm, care to provide an example? I'm not aware of a non-movement movement. But if you know some that'd be super fascinating.
Your hypothetical teleport-during-movement ability is a great example of why it's important to remember that teleportation never provokes an OA, not because it isn't "movement", but rather because teleportation does not provoke OAs no matter what.
Well, it's also to highlight that teleportation isn't movement. Because it doesn't have a listed speed, nor is it done with your move.
If teleportation is not movement, why is it mentioned in the OA rules at all? The only thing that triggers an OA in those rules is movement. If teleportation were so clearly not movement, then it would not need to be mentioned.
I think you will find that most real-world definitions of "movement" or "entering" will not mention teleportation because, as you have mentioned, teleportation is magical and does not exist. The fundamental meaning of movement is the changing of location in space (with regards to an agreed frame of reference). The inclusion of a concept of changing location over a period of time is used because changing location instantly is magic.
The rule books will sometimes use the word movement to refer to only a creature's speed, and it using that speed to walk, run, fly, swim, crawl, etc. but that does not at all mean that this concept is required when working out if a creature has or has not entered an area. You are the only person who is linking the generic word "enter" to the specific rule concept of movement using speed and a move or action to walk or fly.
If you go from outside a building to inside a building then you have entered the building. The only exception to that is if you stay still and the building moves to envelop you. That is the importance of a frame of reference. If you teleport and afterwards you are in a different location according to the frame of reference, then you have moved.
If you teleport into a creature's weapon reach from outside it, then you have entered their reach. If you teleport into a whirlwind from outside it, then you have entered the whirlwind. The OA is not triggered because the rules make an exception for entering via teleportation. Whirlwind has no such exception.
Whether or not teleportation is movement, it is clear that teleportation allows you to 'enter' and 'leave' an area -- look at Magic Circle:
The creature can’t willingly enter the cylinder by nonmagical means. If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to do so, it must first succeed on a Charisma saving throw.
This quite clearly indicates that teleporting into the circle is entering the circle.
Hmm, care to provide an example? I'm not aware of a non-movement movement. But if you know some that'd be super fascinating.
Sure.
A Barbarian's optional Instinctive Pounce provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
you can move up to half your speed.
I actually don't think this movement can provoke OAs but that's for a wholly different reason (namely because its a bonus action). But it certainly is movement because it is a move. So, not a "non-movement movement" that you claim exists.
A Scout Rogue's Skirmisher reaction provides movement with their Reaction that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool (and indeed, often isn't on their own turn). It would provoke an Opportunity Attack, except that it specifically says that it does not as an exception. The reaction granted by a friendly Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Attack is similar.
You can move up to half your speed
This is also a move. And movement. So not this mythical "non-movement movement" still.
A Horizon Walker Ranger's Distant Strike provides 10 foot teleportation hops between attacks during an Attack action that aren't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that teleportation specifically does not provoke Opportunity Attacks as an exception.
you can teleport up to 10 feet
Sneaky sneaky. This is a teleport and not a move. Tautologically unfit as an argument.
A Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic provides 10 foot flying moves immediately before or after a spell is cast. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that the feature specifically says that they do not as an exception.
Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Doesn't seem to apply here. Even if it did, as a bonus action, wouldn't trigger OAs.
An Orc's Aggressive provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
A Ready action may be taken to allow you to move with your Reaction during someone else's turn. That movement would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
can move up to its speed
That's a move. Again, same old story, still waiting for a "non-movement movement".
Dissonant Whispers causes an enemy to immediately use its reaction to move away from you. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
to move as far as its speed allows
That's move. Lots of examples of movement that is movement ou got here. But no "Non-movement movement" yet? Shame.
----
Some of these features provide flat distance, while others provide distance defined by your character's speed, but either way they are discrete movements that take place as part of an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction that are not the same as your other movement during your turn using your divisible pool of movement defined by your speed. All of them provoke Opportunity Attacks unless they say they don't, not vice versa.
Oh no! We ran out of examples. Boo. I was hopeful there we'd see a "non-movement movement". Drat.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
... Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn....
None of the examples I provided are performed with your "move" (your ability to freely move one or more times during your turn by spending movement points from a pool defined by your speed). All of them are examples of moving using an action of one sort or another. This is what I was responding to, your claim that "movement" is only on your own turn using "you move." That is incorrect.
You'll note, I hope, that where you're saying 'non-movement-pool movement', to make it quite clear what you're talking about, Rav is changing it to 'non-movement movement' in order to try and confuse the discussion as much as possible.[REDACTED]
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm just going to post some correct statements in case anyone reads this deep looking for answers (although all of this is tangentially related to the topic of the thread)
Moving using your movement, action, bonus action, or reaction triggers opportunity attacks unless otherwise stated.
Teleportation is not normal movement and is not effected by things that specify moving (like grappling or caltrops).
You can't go from one space to another without entering the new space, even by teleportation or being moved by force. You enter a space the earliest moment you are in it.
You'll note, I hope, that where you're saying 'non-movement-pool movement', to make it quite clear what you're talking about, Rav is changing it to 'non-movement movement' in order to try and confuse the discussion as much as possible. It's blatant bad faith.
There is no such thing as "movement-pool movement" That's not a game term. I honestly don't know what someone even means when they say that, because it's essentially saying non-movement movement, since the only movement... is movement. There is no such thing as a "pool" of movement. And for sure no such thing as a non movement pool movement. That's not rules text, nor game terms, just seems to me like it is word salad.
Anyway, I was still addressing this quote below. Notice he characterized my statement as equal to "non-movement-pool movement".
Your statement that OAs aren't triggered by non-movement-pool movement unless specifically stated otherwise is false, as any other non-movement-pool movement that you might make using your action, reaction, or bonus action would provoke OAs, even if it didn't say so, unless it said it didn't.
My statement was: "only movement provokes opportunity attacks". and/or "The move is what can potentially trigger opportunity attacks. Nothing else does unless specified as an exception."
Thus he is drawing an equivalence between whatever "non-movement-pool movement" is and my statement of just movement/move. I gotta take him at face value, right? He's not misrepresenting what I said, so clearly he thinks "non-movement-pool movement" is synonymous with non-movement movement... or is it better expressed as just non-move movement, or just non-movement move?
It certainly isn't my term despite his claim to the contrary. I really don't know what a "non-movement-pool movement" even is. It certainly isn't a D&D thing.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Typically effects that transport you also qualify as movement even if they're not actually moving. For exemple, when a hockey player is traded we say it's moved to another team (staff movement) and some player have non-movement clause. These refers to reposition from one place to another, just like on a battlefield teleportation or planeshift does. I know its a bit off topic but its just to illustrate the complexity of what non-movement movement can actually mean.
Apart from falling and being pushed/pulled/shoved, another exemple of non-movement movement by entering a space without actually moving or movement would be say when a creature removes you from a bag of holding or a handy haversack, and effects that make you swap position with another creature, such as Bait & Switch.
Bait & Switch: When you're within 5 feet of a creature on your turn, you can expend one superiority die and switch places with that creature, provided you spend at least 5 feet of movement and the creature is willing and isn't incapacitated. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.
... Movement is done with your move, a well defined part of your turn....
None of the examples I provided are performed with your "move" (your ability to freely move one or more times during your turn by spending movement points from a pool defined by your speed). All of them are examples of moving using an action of one sort or another. This is what I was responding to, your claim that "movement" is only on your own turn using "you move." That is incorrect.
Yes, they are. Reread it lol. The ones that actually say you can move are done with your move, because it grants you a move. That move is what allows/causes movement. And you can take it whenever this rules exception is granting it even if it isn't your turn, because you do what rules tell you...
Just look at the first one again, the optional rule pounce:
As part of the bonus action you take to enter your rage, you can move up to half your speed.
"You can move" <--- This is permissive text that is granting you a move. (notice it says speed, too... speed is always linked with move/movement in D&D 5e, you don't have one without the other.)
All the valid ones you referenced say it like this. They give you permissive text to take a move (Ie get movement.) and list a speed. They all do, your own examples. Give move, reference movement, and have a listed speed.
Teleport doesn't do any of these things. Because it doesn't have a speed, it isn't movement, and you can't do it with your move.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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As far as I can tell, one person still believes you can teleport into the middle of a Whirlwind and not trigger the 'first time on a turn' effect Because Reasons, but they've avoided clarifying whether they think that also applies to AoEs like Blade Barrier despite identical language in both spells.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't think anyone ever argued that?
Edit: Summary again since you must have missed it:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
"No one is saying that. Edit:*says exactly that*"
So... Yes?
Moving into an area of effect spell is entering it. Pretty sure everyone agree on this. No one here is saying otherwise. I'm certainly not.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You are absolutely trying to argue that "going from a space not in an area of effect to a space in the area of effect" does not count as "entering the area of effect".
These three points is you trying to do that, by inventing a peculiar definition of the word "enter" using the word "move", then linking that to the concept of a movement allowance or "your move" as defined in the rules.
Entering an area via teleportion is still entering an area. It is going from an outside point to an inside point. Entering. It bypasses OAs because it says it does in the rules. It doesn't bypass Whirlwinds because it doesn't say it does.
Movement is still movement, even if it doesn't use up any of "your move". Whether teleportion counts as movement at all is not relevant to either the OA discussion nor the Whirlwind tangent.
No. I am not arguing that. Bit too broad of a statement there. That includes all instances of moving, transportation, teleportation, forced movement etc. No, I'm not arguing that at all.
I for sure am arguing that moving into a space is entering that space. Yes. Obviously. If you move into a space, you have entered that space. 100%
The plain English meaning of "Enters" is to go into or move into. I'm not "inventing" anything. It is a movement-linked verb that describes moving into something. Enters means move into. 100%
And yes, I am also arguing that Teleportation is not movement. There is no teleportation speeds, nor can you teleport with your move on your turn. Teleportation isn't movement. For sure 100%.
So, yes, the combination of these points means you don't "enter a space when you teleport, you just change from not in it to suddenly being in it. Does that make sense? Not normally. But, teleportation is magic. Specifically the magic of: not being in a place and then suddenly being in it.
It all checks out, there are no holes in this reasoning. If there are I'd love to hear them.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That bullet of yours uses "movement" in two different ways (to refer to the concept of "movement" from one square to another, and also the specific rule system of character movement from your movement pool or other move-granting actions, bonus actions, and reactions). Teleportation effects indeed rarely (maybe never?) use your character speed/movement pool. But 5E does treat teleportation into and out of spaces as "movement" (see e.g. Compelled Duel and the SAC advise on it), and it generally triggers other interactions that look for movement. The reason Teleportation doesn't trigger OAs specifically is not because it isn't "movement" into/out of a reach, but simply because OAs specifically do not trigger on teleportation as a general rule, just like they specifically do not trigger on any movement that doesn't use your character's movement pool, action, bonus action, or reaction. Your statement that OAs aren't triggered by non-movement-pool movement unless specifically stated otherwise is false, as any other non-movement-pool movement that you might make using your action, reaction, or bonus action would provoke OAs, even if it didn't say so, unless it said it didn't.
Your hypothetical teleport-during-movement ability is a great example of why it's important to remember that teleportation never provokes an OA, not because it isn't "movement", but rather because teleportation does not provoke OAs no matter what.
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That's the same thing. Movement doesn't have multiple different meanings based on whim, it's one game term.
Correct. Because its not movement.
No. But I can see why you might infer that. Compelled Duel prevents you from teleporting away because it is a mind control effect that compels you to get closer and fight. You're unable to even consider the notion of wanting to be further away. "the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand" The intent here is super clear what the spell is doing. Trying to circumnavigate the mind-compulsion with teleportation is not what was intended. So I totally agree with that SAC advice. This really doesn't have anything to do with whether teleportation is movement or not though. It isn't.
Oh yeah it's explicitly not triggering OAs for a few reasons. Including the fact it isn't movement.
Hmm, care to provide an example? I'm not aware of a non-movement movement. But if you know some that'd be super fascinating.
Well, it's also to highlight that teleportation isn't movement. Because it doesn't have a listed speed, nor is it done with your move.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Chapter 8: Adventuring, has a whole breakdown on movement, speeds, pacing etc. One of the sections talks all about special types of movements.
It then goes on to describe all these various types of movement. Absent from the entire chapter? The word "teleport". It isn't a type of movement.
Even in normal usage of the word... if teleportation was somehow real in our world. it wouldn't be movement either.
Movement is motion, motion has speed, and teleportation is specifically lacking speed. Being at point A and then suddenly instead being at point B. There is no speed, and without speed there is no motion.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sure.
A Barbarian's optional Instinctive Pounce provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
A Scout Rogue's Skirmisher reaction provides movement with their Reaction that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool (and indeed, often isn't on their own turn). It would provoke an Opportunity Attack, except that it specifically says that it does not as an exception. The reaction granted by a friendly Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Attack is similar.
A Horizon Walker Ranger's Distant Strike provides 10 foot teleportation hops between attacks during an Attack action that aren't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that teleportation specifically does not provoke Opportunity Attacks as an exception.
A Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic provides 10 foot flying moves immediately before or after a spell is cast. They would provoke Opportunity Attacks, except that the feature specifically says that they do not as an exception.
An Orc's Aggressive provides movement with their Bonus Action that isn't deducted from their ordinary movement pool. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
A Ready action may be taken to allow you to move with your Reaction during someone else's turn. That movement would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
Dissonant Whispers causes an enemy to immediately use its reaction to move away from you. It would provoke an Opportunity Attack.
----
Some of these features provide flat distance, while others provide distance defined by your character's speed, but either way they are discrete movements that take place as part of an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction that are not the same as your other movement during your turn using your divisible pool of movement defined by your speed. All of them provoke Opportunity Attacks unless they say they don't, not vice versa.
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If teleportation is not movement, why is it mentioned in the OA rules at all? The only thing that triggers an OA in those rules is movement. If teleportation were so clearly not movement, then it would not need to be mentioned.
I think you will find that most real-world definitions of "movement" or "entering" will not mention teleportation because, as you have mentioned, teleportation is magical and does not exist. The fundamental meaning of movement is the changing of location in space (with regards to an agreed frame of reference). The inclusion of a concept of changing location over a period of time is used because changing location instantly is magic.
The rule books will sometimes use the word movement to refer to only a creature's speed, and it using that speed to walk, run, fly, swim, crawl, etc. but that does not at all mean that this concept is required when working out if a creature has or has not entered an area. You are the only person who is linking the generic word "enter" to the specific rule concept of movement using speed and a move or action to walk or fly.
If you go from outside a building to inside a building then you have entered the building. The only exception to that is if you stay still and the building moves to envelop you. That is the importance of a frame of reference. If you teleport and afterwards you are in a different location according to the frame of reference, then you have moved.
If you teleport into a creature's weapon reach from outside it, then you have entered their reach. If you teleport into a whirlwind from outside it, then you have entered the whirlwind. The OA is not triggered because the rules make an exception for entering via teleportation. Whirlwind has no such exception.
Whether or not teleportation is movement, it is clear that teleportation allows you to 'enter' and 'leave' an area -- look at Magic Circle:
This quite clearly indicates that teleporting into the circle is entering the circle.
you can move up to half your speed.
I actually don't think this movement can provoke OAs but that's for a wholly different reason (namely because its a bonus action). But it certainly is movement because it is a move. So, not a "non-movement movement" that you claim exists.
You can move up to half your speed
This is also a move. And movement. So not this mythical "non-movement movement" still.
you can teleport up to 10 feet
Sneaky sneaky. This is a teleport and not a move. Tautologically unfit as an argument.
Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Doesn't seem to apply here. Even if it did, as a bonus action, wouldn't trigger OAs.
can move up to its speed
That's a move. Again, same old story, still waiting for a "non-movement movement".
to move as far as its speed allows
That's move. Lots of examples of movement that is movement ou got here. But no "Non-movement movement" yet? Shame.
Oh no! We ran out of examples. Boo. I was hopeful there we'd see a "non-movement movement". Drat.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
None of the examples I provided are performed with your "move" (your ability to freely move one or more times during your turn by spending movement points from a pool defined by your speed). All of them are examples of moving using an action of one sort or another. This is what I was responding to, your claim that "movement" is only on your own turn using "you move." That is incorrect.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You'll note, I hope, that where you're saying 'non-movement-pool movement', to make it quite clear what you're talking about, Rav is changing it to 'non-movement movement' in order to try and confuse the discussion as much as possible.[REDACTED]
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I'm just going to post some correct statements in case anyone reads this deep looking for answers (although all of this is tangentially related to the topic of the thread)
One of the most frequent non-movement movement is falling.
There is no such thing as "movement-pool movement" That's not a game term. I honestly don't know what someone even means when they say that, because it's essentially saying non-movement movement, since the only movement... is movement. There is no such thing as a "pool" of movement. And for sure no such thing as a non movement pool movement. That's not rules text, nor game terms, just seems to me like it is word salad.
Anyway, I was still addressing this quote below. Notice he characterized my statement as equal to "non-movement-pool movement".
My statement was: "only movement provokes opportunity attacks". and/or "The move is what can potentially trigger opportunity attacks. Nothing else does unless specified as an exception."
Thus he is drawing an equivalence between whatever "non-movement-pool movement" is and my statement of just movement/move. I gotta take him at face value, right? He's not misrepresenting what I said, so clearly he thinks "non-movement-pool movement" is synonymous with non-movement movement... or is it better expressed as just non-move movement, or just non-movement move?
It certainly isn't my term despite his claim to the contrary. I really don't know what a "non-movement-pool movement" even is. It certainly isn't a D&D thing.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Typically effects that transport you also qualify as movement even if they're not actually moving. For exemple, when a hockey player is traded we say it's moved to another team (staff movement) and some player have non-movement clause. These refers to reposition from one place to another, just like on a battlefield teleportation or planeshift does. I know its a bit off topic but its just to illustrate the complexity of what non-movement movement can actually mean.
Apart from falling and being pushed/pulled/shoved, another exemple of non-movement movement by entering a space without actually moving or movement would be say when a creature removes you from a bag of holding or a handy haversack, and effects that make you swap position with another creature, such as Bait & Switch.
Bait & Switch: When you're within 5 feet of a creature on your turn, you can expend one superiority die and switch places with that creature, provided you spend at least 5 feet of movement and the creature is willing and isn't incapacitated. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.
Yes, they are. Reread it lol. The ones that actually say you can move are done with your move, because it grants you a move. That move is what allows/causes movement. And you can take it whenever this rules exception is granting it even if it isn't your turn, because you do what rules tell you...
Just look at the first one again, the optional rule pounce:
"You can move" <--- This is permissive text that is granting you a move. (notice it says speed, too... speed is always linked with move/movement in D&D 5e, you don't have one without the other.)
All the valid ones you referenced say it like this. They give you permissive text to take a move (Ie get movement.) and list a speed. They all do, your own examples. Give move, reference movement, and have a listed speed.
Teleport doesn't do any of these things. Because it doesn't have a speed, it isn't movement, and you can't do it with your move.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.