I am trying to identify examples of chaotic neutral characters in media (movies, manga, anime, comics, books) other than the typical crazies or self-absorbed rogues, such as Jack Sparrow and Catwoman. I am interested in playing a character that is chaotic insofar as he has an absolute distrust of government and social structures and neutral in that good and evil are viewed as labels (or tools to facilitate the achievement an objective). He has a philosophical code that he lives by (note: moral would imply a valuation of good and evil, which are irrelevant). Examples I can think of include V (in the comic, V for Victory) and possibly some of the characters played by Clint Eastwood early in his career. The general "avenger" archetype. Can anyone point me to other unequivocal examples that I can use as a basis for roleplaying?
By most reasonable definitions of CN, they make poor protagonists, because they don't stand for anything save themselves. Also, unequivocal examples of any D&D alignment are hard to come by, because they're so fuzzy and poorly defined, and the law-chaos axis is worse there than good-evil is.
That said, you probably want to look at mercenaries; characters who define themselves by their job. Some thoughts:
Zakalwe Cheradenine, the main character of Iain M. Banks' Use of Weapons
The titular Black Company of Glen Cook's The Black Company and its sequels. (At least in the first series.)
The Punisher, from Marvel Comics.
I won't try to defend any of these if somebody tries to argue they're not CN.
I have always felt like neutral can be approached, not as someone who simple doesn't care, but as someone who is willing to do anything necessary for a good cause.
I think Neutral is a balance between altruism and self-interest. That's not an easy balance.
One idea is a benevolent dictator. Tries to make the people happy but rules with an iron fist to ensure people are happy because happy people won't depose an authority. Variation: Owns everything and fiercely protects that ownership but lets people govern themselves.
The issue with those examples is that the law-chaos axis is poorly defined so that a balance between good-evil makes everything seem chaotic orlawful. Trying to keep people happy is chaotic (because people are chaotic full stop) but enforcing that is lawful. Setting the rules of property ownership and limiting one's interference on the populace is lawful but letting the people handle their own problems is chaotic. Is law or chaos the defining factor?
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I am interested in playing a character that is chaotic insofar as he has an absolute distrust of government and social structures and neutral in that good and evil are viewed as labels (or tools to facilitate the achievement an objective).
Trying to think of a fictional character that fit this description and which might also fit in a D&D party, I wound up at Mark Wahlberg's character from Shooter
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I see some holes here and there. Missing pieces that more readily define some of these terms. Chaotic vs Lawful, and Good vs Evil.
Chaotic: This is a theory that the individual is important and that society progresses better without the constraints of order and hierarchy. This is best represented by Demons. Demons do not favor rank or structure, but rather are intimidated and motivate by power and strength. A chaotic army can exist, however, it will be structured by whoever is the strongest and who is the most willing to take the reins of power. These armies are usually kept together by a common goal, and commonality, but it could fall apart at anytime, and new leadership happens based off of who can take that power. Loyalty is out the door, and so is merit.
Lawful: In this theory, the individual supports the larger group . Only under a social hierarchy can order be achieved, and it best represented by the devils. There is rank, and structure, and loyalty. Promotion is based off of merit and popularity. Lawful groups require skills in social politics and cunning. Neither Chaos or Lawfulness have any ties to good or evil. These are just the social construction of how people relate to each other for common goals.
So then you get into good vs evil, or in this case neutral. Chaotic Neutral suggests a person with no social ties to a government or group of people who has morals that don't align with "Good" or "Evil". For the most part this is the basis for scouts, thieves, rangers, mercenaries, and such but based off of whether they belong to larger groups who are motivated by self interests and power. For me a chaotic neutral person is your Protagonist who looks out for themselves and have no need for structure or hierarchy like: James Bond, Jack Reacher, Iron Man, Venom, Blade, Richard B. Riddick, Godzilla, Cat Woman, The Hulk, John Constantine, Rorschach, Prince Zuko (as the Blue Spirit), Bugs Bunny, Cheshire Cat, Beetlejuice, Han Solo, Harley Quinn, Megamind, most Tieflings, and others such that don't favor hierarchal structures or plights of good or evil. These characters are known as the "Free Spirited" or "individualist.
Han Solo at the beginning of A New Hope is textbook chaotic neutral: doesn't like law, naturally skeptical towards authorities, plays by his own rules, shoots first. He is not interested in doing "good" or "evil," he's just looking out for himself. He'll do bad things (smuggling drugs, shooting first) and good things (helping Luke rescue Leia from the death star) as long as they're in his best interest.
Of course by the end of the movie his character development has him firmly in the chaotic good alignment, but movies are a different medium than TTRPG's, and you could play out that same character development that took Han two hours in two years of dnd.
Of course by the end of the movie his character development has him firmly in the chaotic good alignment, but movies are a different medium than TTRPG's, and you could play out that same character development that took Han two hours in two years of dnd.
Technically by the end of Star Wars Han would have been Neutral/Good. He was given the rank general in an organized army, however he didn't respect the Rebel's Military Structure totally keeping him out of the Lawful range, but he was more than willing to lead the strike team which keeps him out of Chaotic. According to the reading, Han started off Lawful as he joined the Empire young, however his experience in the Imperial army turned his allegiance away from most organized hierarchies.
After that I feel he moved from Neutral to good on that spectrum because... He only was willing to rescue Princess Leia in Part IV as long as he was going to get paid. But by Part VI Han was willing to risk his life, and his ship in the destruction of the Empire. Quite the character arc for just 1 character.
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I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
I think Neutral is a balance between altruism and self-interest. That's not an easy balance.
My advice is to stop thinking of neutral as a balance and start thinking of it as the simple absence of commitment to a moral or ethical cause. It's been a long time since 'alignment' meant literal alignment with a spiritual force in D&D, and the idea that neutral is 'balance in all things' is kind of the last holdout of that way of thinking. Speaking canonically, it is really only relevant in Planescape material, anymore. But of course, your own homebrew may differ.
The vast majority of people walk an unsteady line between altruism and self-interest without really trying.
I tend to think that most depictions of disruptive antiheroes in fiction are chaotic neutral rather than chaotic good. Chaotic neutral, in my opinion, is rather easy to understand: dedication to the dissolution of the status quo without caring who gets hurt. Chaotic good, on the other hand -- dedication to the dissolution of the status quo while fastidiously avoiding harm to others -- is a much harder target, and most authors and filmmakers fail to hit it.
A name that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Tyler Durden, from Fight Club. He is, of course, out of his mind, but the story portrays him as generally very calculating and outward-looking.
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J Great Wyrm Moonstone Dungeon Master
The time of the ORC has come. No OGL without irrevocability; no OGL with 'authorized version' language. #openDND
Practice, practice, practice • Respect the rules; don't memorize them • Be merciless, not cruel • Don't let the dice run the game for you
The "Mad Max" character, played by Mel Gibson, is as close to a chaotic neutral 'hero' that I can come up with right now. Even with him, one could argue that, 'He must have some good in him, or he wouldn't have offered his help to the folks at the oil well/refinery'. I see his heroics as mostly self serving, that unintentionally benefit others he associates with, so I consider that character to be chaotic neutral over all.
You should take a look at the upper planes. Perhaps take some reference from there for in game prop and support. While I am not referencing contemporary media, I am pointing out the Forgotten Realms Planes of Existence that should really have effect and influence on Alignment. While the Alignment system in FR is based on mythology and Pre 20th Century literature that most media draws its inspiration from anyway it does serve a good reason to read up on.
"I'VE SOMEHOW GOTTEN STRONGER WHEN I IMPROVED MY FARM-RELATED SKILLS"
The MC is a farmer, and very clearly only cares about farming. They only get involved because it might affect the farms, and their profits from farming. Sure he has done nothing that counts as evil in the anime, but honestly his motivation to do good is purely based on his passion for farming and profit from farming. He only defeats the evil bad guys because they challenge him to a fight. He also will just up and leave randomly. Pure chaos, pure Neutral.
The goblin ranger I play is chaotic neutral and I based him largely on Mike Ehrmentraut from Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul. He is an individualist that puts himself above the law. He is mostly motivated by what benefits him the most and doesn't feel much empathy with both criminals or the law.
That said you could also make a case for him to be lawful neutral or chaotic good. It just shows the complexity of this character.
Saul Goodman himself could also be seen as a chaotic neutral character, especially towards Breaking Bad.
Good people consder the needs of others above most other things. Evil people do not consider the needs of others. Neutral people fall in the grey area in between, and honestly, the vast majority of actual people are probably Chaotic Neutral.
We obey the law, unless the law makes no sense, or we disagree with it, or it's easier not to. We will drive safely, unless we're in a hurry, in a bad mood, or not paying attention, at which point we speed. We will lament that people aren't being looked after and that there are too many people relying on food banks, but we will still spend that £10 on netflix instead of donating to said foodbanks. we consider violence as wrong, but if offered £10k to slap a stranger, that stranger better be prepared to get slapped. Heck, if offered £10 to slap a stranger, more than half of us would do it. We recycle our plastic waste, unless we're out in wich case it goes in a general waste bin, because we haven't got a moral code strong enough to carry it home to our recycling. All of us have a value at which we hope someone doesn't notice that they dropped money - 50p, hopefully I can scoop that up. Tenner, excuse me, you dropped this. We all think children should go to school, but all hate it when we're driving at school pick-up time. Some of us preach being vegan because it saves the animals, as millions of acres of forest are cut down to grow avocados for them to post photos of on social media. And so on. Our decisions are unpredictable, because they are at the whim of how we're feeling, and follow no moral code to the letter, because almost nobody considers the moral implications of every decision they make.
So, OP, pick and real life hero, and they are probably chaotic neutral.
Of course by the end of the movie his character development has him firmly in the chaotic good alignment, but movies are a different medium than TTRPG's, and you could play out that same character development that took Han two hours in two years of dnd.
Han didn't wind up shifting to Good until Return of the Jedi. He was given a medal for helping Luke blow up the Death Star at the end of A New Hope, but the only reason he did so was because Luke was his friend: he wouldn't have bothered coming back to save Wedge or one of the unnamed Rebel pilots. Similarly, in Empire Strikes Back he was looking out for himself and his friends and didn't care about the galaxy or the war against the Empire overall.
Another CN character is Grunt from Mass Effect 2. He doesn't care about complex morality questions, he just follows Shepard because Shepard finds all the best fights!
I am trying to identify examples of chaotic neutral characters in media (movies, manga, anime, comics, books) other than the typical crazies or self-absorbed rogues, such as Jack Sparrow and Catwoman. I am interested in playing a character that is chaotic insofar as he has an absolute distrust of government and social structures and neutral in that good and evil are viewed as labels (or tools to facilitate the achievement an objective). He has a philosophical code that he lives by (note: moral would imply a valuation of good and evil, which are irrelevant). Examples I can think of include V (in the comic, V for Victory) and possibly some of the characters played by Clint Eastwood early in his career. The general "avenger" archetype. Can anyone point me to other unequivocal examples that I can use as a basis for roleplaying?
By most reasonable definitions of CN, they make poor protagonists, because they don't stand for anything save themselves. Also, unequivocal examples of any D&D alignment are hard to come by, because they're so fuzzy and poorly defined, and the law-chaos axis is worse there than good-evil is.
That said, you probably want to look at mercenaries; characters who define themselves by their job. Some thoughts:
Zakalwe Cheradenine, the main character of Iain M. Banks' Use of Weapons
The titular Black Company of Glen Cook's The Black Company and its sequels. (At least in the first series.)
The Punisher, from Marvel Comics.
I won't try to defend any of these if somebody tries to argue they're not CN.
I have always felt like neutral can be approached, not as someone who simple doesn't care, but as someone who is willing to do anything necessary for a good cause.
I think Neutral is a balance between altruism and self-interest. That's not an easy balance.
One idea is a benevolent dictator. Tries to make the people happy but rules with an iron fist to ensure people are happy because happy people won't depose an authority. Variation: Owns everything and fiercely protects that ownership but lets people govern themselves.
The issue with those examples is that the law-chaos axis is poorly defined so that a balance between good-evil makes everything seem chaotic or lawful. Trying to keep people happy is chaotic (because people are chaotic full stop) but enforcing that is lawful. Setting the rules of property ownership and limiting one's interference on the populace is lawful but letting the people handle their own problems is chaotic. Is law or chaos the defining factor?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Trying to think of a fictional character that fit this description and which might also fit in a D&D party, I wound up at Mark Wahlberg's character from Shooter
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I see some holes here and there. Missing pieces that more readily define some of these terms. Chaotic vs Lawful, and Good vs Evil.
Chaotic: This is a theory that the individual is important and that society progresses better without the constraints of order and hierarchy. This is best represented by Demons. Demons do not favor rank or structure, but rather are intimidated and motivate by power and strength. A chaotic army can exist, however, it will be structured by whoever is the strongest and who is the most willing to take the reins of power. These armies are usually kept together by a common goal, and commonality, but it could fall apart at anytime, and new leadership happens based off of who can take that power. Loyalty is out the door, and so is merit.
Lawful: In this theory, the individual supports the larger group . Only under a social hierarchy can order be achieved, and it best represented by the devils. There is rank, and structure, and loyalty. Promotion is based off of merit and popularity. Lawful groups require skills in social politics and cunning. Neither Chaos or Lawfulness have any ties to good or evil. These are just the social construction of how people relate to each other for common goals.
So then you get into good vs evil, or in this case neutral. Chaotic Neutral suggests a person with no social ties to a government or group of people who has morals that don't align with "Good" or "Evil". For the most part this is the basis for scouts, thieves, rangers, mercenaries, and such but based off of whether they belong to larger groups who are motivated by self interests and power. For me a chaotic neutral person is your Protagonist who looks out for themselves and have no need for structure or hierarchy like: James Bond, Jack Reacher, Iron Man, Venom, Blade, Richard B. Riddick, Godzilla, Cat Woman, The Hulk, John Constantine, Rorschach, Prince Zuko (as the Blue Spirit), Bugs Bunny, Cheshire Cat, Beetlejuice, Han Solo, Harley Quinn, Megamind, most Tieflings, and others such that don't favor hierarchal structures or plights of good or evil. These characters are known as the "Free Spirited" or "individualist.
I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
Han Solo at the beginning of A New Hope is textbook chaotic neutral: doesn't like law, naturally skeptical towards authorities, plays by his own rules, shoots first. He is not interested in doing "good" or "evil," he's just looking out for himself. He'll do bad things (smuggling drugs, shooting first) and good things (helping Luke rescue Leia from the death star) as long as they're in his best interest.
Of course by the end of the movie his character development has him firmly in the chaotic good alignment, but movies are a different medium than TTRPG's, and you could play out that same character development that took Han two hours in two years of dnd.
Technically by the end of Star Wars Han would have been Neutral/Good. He was given the rank general in an organized army, however he didn't respect the Rebel's Military Structure totally keeping him out of the Lawful range, but he was more than willing to lead the strike team which keeps him out of Chaotic. According to the reading, Han started off Lawful as he joined the Empire young, however his experience in the Imperial army turned his allegiance away from most organized hierarchies.
After that I feel he moved from Neutral to good on that spectrum because... He only was willing to rescue Princess Leia in Part IV as long as he was going to get paid. But by Part VI Han was willing to risk his life, and his ship in the destruction of the Empire. Quite the character arc for just 1 character.
I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
My advice is to stop thinking of neutral as a balance and start thinking of it as the simple absence of commitment to a moral or ethical cause. It's been a long time since 'alignment' meant literal alignment with a spiritual force in D&D, and the idea that neutral is 'balance in all things' is kind of the last holdout of that way of thinking. Speaking canonically, it is really only relevant in Planescape material, anymore. But of course, your own homebrew may differ.
The vast majority of people walk an unsteady line between altruism and self-interest without really trying.
I tend to think that most depictions of disruptive antiheroes in fiction are chaotic neutral rather than chaotic good. Chaotic neutral, in my opinion, is rather easy to understand: dedication to the dissolution of the status quo without caring who gets hurt. Chaotic good, on the other hand -- dedication to the dissolution of the status quo while fastidiously avoiding harm to others -- is a much harder target, and most authors and filmmakers fail to hit it.
A name that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Tyler Durden, from Fight Club. He is, of course, out of his mind, but the story portrays him as generally very calculating and outward-looking.
J
Great Wyrm Moonstone Dungeon Master
The time of the ORC has come. No OGL without irrevocability; no OGL with 'authorized version' language. #openDND
Practice, practice, practice • Respect the rules; don't memorize them • Be merciless, not cruel • Don't let the dice run the game for you
The "Mad Max" character, played by Mel Gibson, is as close to a chaotic neutral 'hero' that I can come up with right now. Even with him, one could argue that, 'He must have some good in him, or he wouldn't have offered his help to the folks at the oil well/refinery'. I see his heroics as mostly self serving, that unintentionally benefit others he associates with, so I consider that character to be chaotic neutral over all.
You should take a look at the upper planes. Perhaps take some reference from there for in game prop and support. While I am not referencing contemporary media, I am pointing out the Forgotten Realms Planes of Existence that should really have effect and influence on Alignment. While the Alignment system in FR is based on mythology and Pre 20th Century literature that most media draws its inspiration from anyway it does serve a good reason to read up on.
A recent anime with a Main Character that is CN
"I'VE SOMEHOW GOTTEN STRONGER WHEN I IMPROVED MY FARM-RELATED SKILLS"
The MC is a farmer, and very clearly only cares about farming. They only get involved because it might affect the farms, and their profits from farming. Sure he has done nothing that counts as evil in the anime, but honestly his motivation to do good is purely based on his passion for farming and profit from farming. He only defeats the evil bad guys because they challenge him to a fight. He also will just up and leave randomly. Pure chaos, pure Neutral.
Cool Hand Luke.
The goblin ranger I play is chaotic neutral and I based him largely on Mike Ehrmentraut from Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul. He is an individualist that puts himself above the law. He is mostly motivated by what benefits him the most and doesn't feel much empathy with both criminals or the law.
That said you could also make a case for him to be lawful neutral or chaotic good. It just shows the complexity of this character.
Saul Goodman himself could also be seen as a chaotic neutral character, especially towards Breaking Bad.
Good people consder the needs of others above most other things. Evil people do not consider the needs of others. Neutral people fall in the grey area in between, and honestly, the vast majority of actual people are probably Chaotic Neutral.
We obey the law, unless the law makes no sense, or we disagree with it, or it's easier not to. We will drive safely, unless we're in a hurry, in a bad mood, or not paying attention, at which point we speed. We will lament that people aren't being looked after and that there are too many people relying on food banks, but we will still spend that £10 on netflix instead of donating to said foodbanks. we consider violence as wrong, but if offered £10k to slap a stranger, that stranger better be prepared to get slapped. Heck, if offered £10 to slap a stranger, more than half of us would do it. We recycle our plastic waste, unless we're out in wich case it goes in a general waste bin, because we haven't got a moral code strong enough to carry it home to our recycling. All of us have a value at which we hope someone doesn't notice that they dropped money - 50p, hopefully I can scoop that up. Tenner, excuse me, you dropped this. We all think children should go to school, but all hate it when we're driving at school pick-up time. Some of us preach being vegan because it saves the animals, as millions of acres of forest are cut down to grow avocados for them to post photos of on social media. And so on. Our decisions are unpredictable, because they are at the whim of how we're feeling, and follow no moral code to the letter, because almost nobody considers the moral implications of every decision they make.
So, OP, pick and real life hero, and they are probably chaotic neutral.
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Han didn't wind up shifting to Good until Return of the Jedi. He was given a medal for helping Luke blow up the Death Star at the end of A New Hope, but the only reason he did so was because Luke was his friend: he wouldn't have bothered coming back to save Wedge or one of the unnamed Rebel pilots. Similarly, in Empire Strikes Back he was looking out for himself and his friends and didn't care about the galaxy or the war against the Empire overall.
Another CN character is Grunt from Mass Effect 2. He doesn't care about complex morality questions, he just follows Shepard because Shepard finds all the best fights!
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.