I'm looking to double class a character and I'd like to go warlock with Tiamat as my patron. Would that be a fiend or a celestial? She IS a God, but she doesn't really fit the celestial classification. Truth be told, I'd rather do Hexblade, but Tiamat fits the story better.
I'm looking to double class a character and I'd like to go warlock with Tiamat as my patron. Would that be a fiend or a celestial? She IS a God, but she doesn't really fit the celestial classification. Truth be told, I'd rather do Hexblade, but Tiamat fits the story better.
Any suggestions?
Tiamat is technically a fiend in some capacity. I would ask your DM, as either could technically work, but she leans more to fiend
In 5e, Tiamat is somewhat tricky. Prior to the release of Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons, she was rather simply the goddess of evil dragons, and her stat-block found in The Rise of Tiamat and reprinted in Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus had the Fiend creature type.
With the release of Fizban’s, the lore about Tiamat and the whole D&D multiverse got a major shakeup. Tiamat along with her good counterpart Bahamut created the Material Plane’s First World, which was destroyed in a conflict after the other gods and their Humanoid followers arrived from the Outer Planes. Fizban’s specifically calls out Tiamat and Bahamut as being ontologically* distinct from the other gods of the D&D multiverse, as the two of them are native to the Material Plane, while all other gods are not. Furthermore, the Aspect of Tiamat monster stat-block in this book has the Dragon creature type.
Regarding your question as to the Warlock, my first-instinct response is, ontological differences notwithstanding, as a deity, Tiamat doesn’t have warlocks, but instead has clerics. That’s neither very helpful nor very fun for your predicament however, so I’d just go with the Fiend patron, given Tiamat dwells/is imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
*Ontology is the branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature of being.
She is a Fiend, a God, an Ancient Dragon, the Queen of Chaos, a force of elemental destruction, and anything by in between depending on the world and version of D&D you are playing with.
Fiend Warlock tends to fit the best with the current iteration of Tiamat as the fiendish guardian/prisoner of Avernus who protects the main gate that’s leads from the first layer of the Nine Hells to the other eight layers.
As for Hexblade, while it is often more associated with the Shadowfell it is very easy to flavor it to fit Tiamat or any other fiendish patron. Your pact weapon isn’t made of darkness and shadow magic, but fiendish hell/dragon fire that burns ever hot. Your invocation abilities to attack harder, faster, and with greater precision with your blade and your Hexblade’s curse mirrors the devils more militaristic battle tactics and Tiamat’s nature as a being of strength who’s tenets are “might equals right”, and “seek vengeance against any slights or insults”.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
As a small homebrew I'd suggest porting over the draconic sorcerer abilites which might be ok if there are no draconic sorceres in your group, and amends as follows:
Level 1:
Gain Draconic Resilience as per Draconic Sorcerer.
Gain Scion of Tiamat: At the end of a Long Rest the Warlcok can choose one of the aspects of Tiamat (Blue/Lightning, Black/Acid, Green/Poison, Red/Fire, White/Cold) and "attune" to that colour/damage type, this choice amends some later abilities, whilst attuned to that aspect your skin takes on a soft hue of the colour associated with it. Also gain Draconic as a bonus languiage and appies double prof bonus to any charisma checks made to interact with Dragonic creatures as long as you are proficient with the skill being used.
Level 6:
Gain Elemental Affinity: You gain resistance to the damage type associated with the colour you chose via the Scion of Tiamat ability and additionally when you cast a spell that deals the damage type associate to that colour you can add your Charisma bonus to that damage.
Level 10:
Dragon Wings functions as per the Draconic Sorcerer.
Level 14:
Draconic Presence function mostly as per the Sorcerer ability but you need to expend a spell slot of 3rd level or higher to activate it instead of using sorcery points.
Add on an small expanded spell list of: level 1 spells: Absorb Elements & Chaos Bolt, level 2 spells: Alter Self & Dragons Breath, level 3 spells: Protection from Elements. There aren't many other spells I can find that might fit but thats not say therer aren't some.
*****
EDIT:...re using Hexblade, you could also flavour it as having an Orb of Dragonkind as your patron instead of a weapon.
Draconic Presence function mostly as per the Sorcerer ability but you need to expend a spell slot of 3rd level or higher to activate it instead of using sorcery points.
All of a warlock's spell slots at 14th level count as 5th level.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Draconic Presence function mostly as per the Sorcerer ability but you need to expend a spell slot of 3rd level or higher to activate it instead of using sorcery points.
All of a warlock's spell slots at 14th level count as 5th level.
They do but I figered the 5 sorcery points is roughly equivalent to a 3rd level slot and there is nothing stopping them using a 5th level slot to activate the abilty or if they have multiclassed then they might have some lower level slots available to fuel it, admittedly they would have to be 14th level Warlock and 5th level in some other spell casting class to do it so odds are it'll be a very very small amount of warlocks that could do it.
It is important to get a feel for who Tiamat is, and what is their motivation? Why would she share her gifts with the creature you want to play? Tiamat has many faces depending on the lore and the year and she is fearsome to say the least. She is actually powerful enough that one of her children could be strong enough to empower warlocks.
If it were me, I would put Tiamat under "Great Old one" as she fits that rather well. As a DM, I would modify the abilities to better lineup with that of Dragon-Kind. Ultimately I would see anyone following this line to eventually mutate into a Dragon Born.
Finally, I would consider any Warlock of Tiamat to be either fully vested in service of Tiamat (Zealot Style), or subjugated against their will. Tiamat does tend to have a certain following, but does things her way as well.
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I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
Great Old One patrons generally indicate something that's from beyond reality and completely alien to any sort of human thought. Tiamat's never really fit that description.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think you're asking about Forgotten Realms canon, but in case you wanted to know, Babylonian mythological Tiamat was an ancient, possibly dragon-like, but the descriptions are hard to picture, primordial monster. She was associated with salt waters, and represented chaos opposed to order. Her name is cognate with the words translated as "the deep" in Genesis.
Pretty sure in the text of the Warlock it's not really gods who directly patronize the warlock, but intermediaries (angels, greater but not greatest fiends, etc.). For Tiamat, I'd choose a great worm, and flavor that chromatic dragon with whichever patron makes most sense. Fiend is probably easiest, but any may well due.
I agree that the lack of a draconic warlock is dissappointing, and I agree some sort of homebrew pact that draws from the draconic bloodline might make sense if you're up to homebrew. But otherwise, fiend or maybe reflavored great old one would be my first thoughts.
As for world building, Tiamat likely has clerics and paladins, warlocks would be agents cultivated by dragons with a direct line to Tiamat somehow. Ancient Great Wyrms most make sense here.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Not sure why I didn;t think of it sooner but Abishai were mortal servants of Tiamat that won her favour and were transformed into fiends, so the Fiend subclass actually would make sense. Just tweak the fiend expanded spell list to reflect the type of abishai you might be turned into or that reflects a particularly powerful Abishai that is acting as your mentor.
I'm looking to double class a character and I'd like to go warlock with Tiamat as my patron.
Any suggestions?
Although she is one of the Dragon Gods, and was born as a Goddess, she has an infernal pact with Asmodeus and counts as a Devil. So fiend works better than Celestial. Hexblade is fun, but due to it's OP in a Multi-class build it's been done to death. For a while it was "so what flavor of Hexblade are you playing this campaign?" Because litterally every player at the table was doing it, Hexadin, Hexogue, Hexorcery ...
In 5e, Tiamat is somewhat tricky. Prior to the release of Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons, she was rather simply the goddess of evil dragons, and her stat-block found in The Rise of Tiamat and reprinted in Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus had the Fiend creature type.
With the release of Fizban’s, the lore about Tiamat and the whole D&D multiverse got a major shakeup. Tiamat along with her good counterpart Bahamut created the Material Plane’s First World, which was destroyed in a conflict after the other gods and their Humanoid followers arrived from the Outer Planes. Fizban’s specifically calls out Tiamat and Bahamut as being ontologically* distinct from the other gods of the D&D multiverse, as the two of them are native to the Material Plane, while all other gods are not. Furthermore, the Aspect of Tiamat monster stat-block in this book has the Dragon creature type.
Regarding your question as to the Warlock, my first-instinct response is, ontological differences notwithstanding, as a deity, Tiamat doesn’t have warlocks, but instead has clerics. That’s neither very helpful nor very fun for your predicament however, so I’d just go with the Fiend patron, given Tiamat dwells/is imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
*Ontology is the branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature of being.
Well Tiamat's aspect is the dragon type and she is native to the material plane she has made a pact with Asmodeus that has caused her to be a fiend
It is important to get a feel for who Tiamat is, and what is their motivation? Why would she share her gifts with the creature you want to play? Tiamat has many faces depending on the lore and the year and she is fearsome to say the least. She is actually powerful enough that one of her children could be strong enough to empower warlocks.
If it were me, I would put Tiamat under "Great Old one" as she fits that rather well. As a DM, I would modify the abilities to better lineup with that of Dragon-Kind. Ultimately I would see anyone following this line to eventually mutate into a Dragon Born.
Finally, I would consider any Warlock of Tiamat to be either fully vested in service of Tiamat (Zealot Style), or subjugated against their will. Tiamat does tend to have a certain following, but does things her way as well.
Tiamat is not an abberation!!! Tiamat is not a great old one!!! Do not do the great old one!!! Tiamat is a fiend do the fiend!!!
Regarding the Celestial point, note that the first line in the description of the Pact is "Your patron is a powerful being of the Upper Planes." While creature typing allows for beings associated with Evil gods to be Evil Celestials, in terms of Warlock patrons "Celestial" refers to a being associated with the Upper Planes, while "Fiend" refers to a being associated with the Lower Planes. Regardless of whether you view her as more a goddess or a fiend, she's definitely a being of the Lower Planes.
To revisit this topic, I found my copy of Draconomicon from 3e. It has a few things on Tiamat specifically but otherwise has a wealth of info on Dragon (such as their physiology and why they hoard treasure), if you can find it I think it is a great sourcve of info if you don't mind doing some homebrewing to bring it over to 5e.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand, there is a class in that book called "Talon of Tiamat", I'll adapt it to the 5e warlock as best I can:
Expanded Spell list: Lvl 1: Absorb Elements, Chroamtic Orb. Lvl 2: Darkvision, Dragons Breath. Lvl 3: Glyph of Warding, Protection from Energy. Lvl 4: Freedom of Movement. Lvl 5: Summon Draconic Spirit. I could only come up with one extra spell for levle 4 & 5 so if you can think of anything particularly thematic feel free to add them in.
Level 1:
Breath Weapon. You can cast Dragons Breath once per long rest as a 2nd level spell without expending a spell slot. (This might be a bit too strong for level 1 so I might temper it with "if you do not have 2nd level spell slots you need to expend a Hit Dice to fuel the Draconic Magic required to manifest the dragons breath", this would also lean into Tiamat giving you something and you having to earn the right to use it).
Voice of the Dragon: Gain Draconic as a Bonus Language and proficiency with either Deception, Intimidation or Persuassion skill and double prof bonus if using a Charisma based skill against a creature witht he Dragon type.
Level 6:
Keen Sense: Gain Darkvision 60ft, if youalready have Darkvision this range increases but 30ft.
Draconic Stature: Gain Immunity to paralysis and magical sleep effects. Additionally pick one Chromatic Dragon, you gain a damage resistance based on that dragon, so you gain fire resistance if you picked red dragon, cold resistance if you picked white dragon etc. (might be a bit strong so might need some nerfing).
Level 10:
Frightful Presence: For ease, I'll say it works like the Paladin Oath of Conquest "Aura of Conquest" but additoonally you gain advatange on any saving throw to resist or shake off the Frightened condition (or possibly have a flat immunity to the Frightened condition instead I couldn't decide between the two).
Level 14:
Dominate Dragon: You gain the ability to cast Domiante Monster once per long rest but can only use it to target a creature with the Dragon type.
**
There we go, obviously very dragon-centric but hopefully keeps the vibe of a follower of Tiamat.
I'm looking to double class a character and I'd like to go warlock with Tiamat as my patron. Would that be a fiend or a celestial? She IS a God, but she doesn't really fit the celestial classification. Truth be told, I'd rather do Hexblade, but Tiamat fits the story better.
Any suggestions?
Tiamat is technically a fiend in some capacity. I would ask your DM, as either could technically work, but she leans more to fiend
Updog
In 5e, Tiamat is somewhat tricky. Prior to the release of Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons, she was rather simply the goddess of evil dragons, and her stat-block found in The Rise of Tiamat and reprinted in Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus had the Fiend creature type.
With the release of Fizban’s, the lore about Tiamat and the whole D&D multiverse got a major shakeup. Tiamat along with her good counterpart Bahamut created the Material Plane’s First World, which was destroyed in a conflict after the other gods and their Humanoid followers arrived from the Outer Planes. Fizban’s specifically calls out Tiamat and Bahamut as being ontologically* distinct from the other gods of the D&D multiverse, as the two of them are native to the Material Plane, while all other gods are not. Furthermore, the Aspect of Tiamat monster stat-block in this book has the Dragon creature type.
Regarding your question as to the Warlock, my first-instinct response is, ontological differences notwithstanding, as a deity, Tiamat doesn’t have warlocks, but instead has clerics.
That’s neither very helpful nor very fun for your predicament however, so I’d just go with the Fiend patron, given Tiamat dwells/is imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
*Ontology is the branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature of being.
She is a Fiend, a God, an Ancient Dragon, the Queen of Chaos, a force of elemental destruction, and anything by in between depending on the world and version of D&D you are playing with.
Fiend Warlock tends to fit the best with the current iteration of Tiamat as the fiendish guardian/prisoner of Avernus who protects the main gate that’s leads from the first layer of the Nine Hells to the other eight layers.
As for Hexblade, while it is often more associated with the Shadowfell it is very easy to flavor it to fit Tiamat or any other fiendish patron. Your pact weapon isn’t made of darkness and shadow magic, but fiendish hell/dragon fire that burns ever hot. Your invocation abilities to attack harder, faster, and with greater precision with your blade and your Hexblade’s curse mirrors the devils more militaristic battle tactics and Tiamat’s nature as a being of strength who’s tenets are “might equals right”, and “seek vengeance against any slights or insults”.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
As a small homebrew I'd suggest porting over the draconic sorcerer abilites which might be ok if there are no draconic sorceres in your group, and amends as follows:
Level 1:
Gain Draconic Resilience as per Draconic Sorcerer.
Gain Scion of Tiamat: At the end of a Long Rest the Warlcok can choose one of the aspects of Tiamat (Blue/Lightning, Black/Acid, Green/Poison, Red/Fire, White/Cold) and "attune" to that colour/damage type, this choice amends some later abilities, whilst attuned to that aspect your skin takes on a soft hue of the colour associated with it. Also gain Draconic as a bonus languiage and appies double prof bonus to any charisma checks made to interact with Dragonic creatures as long as you are proficient with the skill being used.
Level 6:
Gain Elemental Affinity: You gain resistance to the damage type associated with the colour you chose via the Scion of Tiamat ability and additionally when you cast a spell that deals the damage type associate to that colour you can add your Charisma bonus to that damage.
Level 10:
Dragon Wings functions as per the Draconic Sorcerer.
Level 14:
Draconic Presence function mostly as per the Sorcerer ability but you need to expend a spell slot of 3rd level or higher to activate it instead of using sorcery points.
Add on an small expanded spell list of: level 1 spells: Absorb Elements & Chaos Bolt, level 2 spells: Alter Self & Dragons Breath, level 3 spells: Protection from Elements. There aren't many other spells I can find that might fit but thats not say therer aren't some.
*****
EDIT:...re using Hexblade, you could also flavour it as having an Orb of Dragonkind as your patron instead of a weapon.
All of a warlock's spell slots at 14th level count as 5th level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They do but I figered the 5 sorcery points is roughly equivalent to a 3rd level slot and there is nothing stopping them using a 5th level slot to activate the abilty or if they have multiclassed then they might have some lower level slots available to fuel it, admittedly they would have to be 14th level Warlock and 5th level in some other spell casting class to do it so odds are it'll be a very very small amount of warlocks that could do it.
It is important to get a feel for who Tiamat is, and what is their motivation? Why would she share her gifts with the creature you want to play? Tiamat has many faces depending on the lore and the year and she is fearsome to say the least. She is actually powerful enough that one of her children could be strong enough to empower warlocks.
If it were me, I would put Tiamat under "Great Old one" as she fits that rather well. As a DM, I would modify the abilities to better lineup with that of Dragon-Kind. Ultimately I would see anyone following this line to eventually mutate into a Dragon Born.
Finally, I would consider any Warlock of Tiamat to be either fully vested in service of Tiamat (Zealot Style), or subjugated against their will. Tiamat does tend to have a certain following, but does things her way as well.
I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
Great Old One patrons generally indicate something that's from beyond reality and completely alien to any sort of human thought. Tiamat's never really fit that description.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think you're asking about Forgotten Realms canon, but in case you wanted to know, Babylonian mythological Tiamat was an ancient, possibly dragon-like, but the descriptions are hard to picture, primordial monster. She was associated with salt waters, and represented chaos opposed to order. Her name is cognate with the words translated as "the deep" in Genesis.
Pretty sure in the text of the Warlock it's not really gods who directly patronize the warlock, but intermediaries (angels, greater but not greatest fiends, etc.). For Tiamat, I'd choose a great worm, and flavor that chromatic dragon with whichever patron makes most sense. Fiend is probably easiest, but any may well due.
I agree that the lack of a draconic warlock is dissappointing, and I agree some sort of homebrew pact that draws from the draconic bloodline might make sense if you're up to homebrew. But otherwise, fiend or maybe reflavored great old one would be my first thoughts.
As for world building, Tiamat likely has clerics and paladins, warlocks would be agents cultivated by dragons with a direct line to Tiamat somehow. Ancient Great Wyrms most make sense here.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Not sure why I didn;t think of it sooner but Abishai were mortal servants of Tiamat that won her favour and were transformed into fiends, so the Fiend subclass actually would make sense. Just tweak the fiend expanded spell list to reflect the type of abishai you might be turned into or that reflects a particularly powerful Abishai that is acting as your mentor.
Although she is one of the Dragon Gods, and was born as a Goddess, she has an infernal pact with Asmodeus and counts as a Devil. So fiend works better than Celestial. Hexblade is fun, but due to it's OP in a Multi-class build it's been done to death. For a while it was "so what flavor of Hexblade are you playing this campaign?" Because litterally every player at the table was doing it, Hexadin, Hexogue, Hexorcery ...
Well Tiamat's aspect is the dragon type and she is native to the material plane she has made a pact with Asmodeus that has caused her to be a fiend
Tiamat is not an abberation!!! Tiamat is not a great old one!!! Do not do the great old one!!! Tiamat is a fiend do the fiend!!!
With so many great feedback post there's one more thing I'd throw in. It's a classic!
Talk with your DM and find out what they think about Tiamat in the setting. :)
Regarding the Celestial point, note that the first line in the description of the Pact is "Your patron is a powerful being of the Upper Planes." While creature typing allows for beings associated with Evil gods to be Evil Celestials, in terms of Warlock patrons "Celestial" refers to a being associated with the Upper Planes, while "Fiend" refers to a being associated with the Lower Planes. Regardless of whether you view her as more a goddess or a fiend, she's definitely a being of the Lower Planes.
This is all very cool :)
slugcat scoggers
buy outer wilds
miku is my gf
To revisit this topic, I found my copy of Draconomicon from 3e. It has a few things on Tiamat specifically but otherwise has a wealth of info on Dragon (such as their physiology and why they hoard treasure), if you can find it I think it is a great sourcve of info if you don't mind doing some homebrewing to bring it over to 5e.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand, there is a class in that book called "Talon of Tiamat", I'll adapt it to the 5e warlock as best I can:
Expanded Spell list: Lvl 1: Absorb Elements, Chroamtic Orb. Lvl 2: Darkvision, Dragons Breath. Lvl 3: Glyph of Warding, Protection from Energy. Lvl 4: Freedom of Movement. Lvl 5: Summon Draconic Spirit. I could only come up with one extra spell for levle 4 & 5 so if you can think of anything particularly thematic feel free to add them in.
Level 1:
Breath Weapon. You can cast Dragons Breath once per long rest as a 2nd level spell without expending a spell slot. (This might be a bit too strong for level 1 so I might temper it with "if you do not have 2nd level spell slots you need to expend a Hit Dice to fuel the Draconic Magic required to manifest the dragons breath", this would also lean into Tiamat giving you something and you having to earn the right to use it).
Voice of the Dragon: Gain Draconic as a Bonus Language and proficiency with either Deception, Intimidation or Persuassion skill and double prof bonus if using a Charisma based skill against a creature witht he Dragon type.
Level 6:
Keen Sense: Gain Darkvision 60ft, if youalready have Darkvision this range increases but 30ft.
Draconic Stature: Gain Immunity to paralysis and magical sleep effects. Additionally pick one Chromatic Dragon, you gain a damage resistance based on that dragon, so you gain fire resistance if you picked red dragon, cold resistance if you picked white dragon etc. (might be a bit strong so might need some nerfing).
Level 10:
Frightful Presence: For ease, I'll say it works like the Paladin Oath of Conquest "Aura of Conquest" but additoonally you gain advatange on any saving throw to resist or shake off the Frightened condition (or possibly have a flat immunity to the Frightened condition instead I couldn't decide between the two).
Level 14:
Dominate Dragon: You gain the ability to cast Domiante Monster once per long rest but can only use it to target a creature with the Dragon type.
**
There we go, obviously very dragon-centric but hopefully keeps the vibe of a follower of Tiamat.