I am curious, though, and I really don’t want to start anything more, but, um, what do you mean by that kind of a campaign?
The world -- or at least the isolated country the party is in -- was set up with colonial-ish tropes as part of its history, where the "monster" PC races species (orcs, goblins, dragonborn/kobolds, etc.) appear to be indigenous, and the traditional PC species (human/elf/dwarf/halfling, plus gnome) showed up hundreds of years ago in boats fleeing Troubles. It took a while for the two sides to find common ground. At present there's peace but still lingering resentments, factions hoping to stir up trouble and use it to their advantage etc.
Had the players been interested in doing a more political campaign there were avenues to explore, but they weren't, so we're not. The party's got an orc, a kobold, a human, an elf(-ish) and a halfling in it, everybody gets along as much as people ever get along, and the wars are generations in the past and nothing more than lore
ah. Yeah, I get that. For all my highfalutin stuff, in practical terms my games are currently just crawls and towns. And the big world has a lot of foundational background, but the closest they will get to most of it is saving the princess and then Seeing her crowned and solving the old emperor’s death.
thank you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
A ravenous creature birthed by exploding out of a hyena that was cursed to feed until it died from engorging itself...
That simplifies things quite a bit if that's your lore. It's difficult to justify any G or even L in that alignment. It is not the product of the creature's nurturing but of designed purpose.
Can a Gnoll reject its nature? Would it? Hunger is a basic part of life that is difficult to deny, and the very core of their being is hunger. That doesn't completely preclude the possibility, but then, you now have an extremely rare exception to a rule. People are going to fear Gnolls just because they're Gnolls. That's just how it works.
The problem is when a creature's nature comes from nurturing and not design, and people make assumptions based on what people claim are common encounters. The exceptions are not from a rule but from a prejudice. Supposed statistics of encounters is not a valid excuse. That's when you need to be careful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Reading through this made me think of a discussion I had with a different group about evil and sin. We finally decided that all sin comes down to is selfishness. When that selfishness reaches the point of “because I want “it” ( whatever “it” is) I am justified in taking it from you the sin becomes evil. When groups do this it becomes a cultural thing. If we think about orc for a bit (other groups would be fairly similar) they are humanoids living in and under the mountains fairly traditionally. If you have elves, dwarves and humans that develop ways to live off the land superior to that of the orcs ( farming etc) and start pushing into the territory of the orcs the orcs are going to fight back and both sides are going to start building a prejudice for the other that is capable of turning into a prejudice and racism. If the orcs are being pushed from below by the Drow and duregar and from above by the humans, elves and dwarves they just might turn to raiding to get some of that “good stuff” and to try to thin out the populations squeezing them so they can have a place to raise their kids. So now, yes the orcs are regularly out raiding, stealing, killing (even women and children) but are they actually the evil ones ? This is basically the scenario for the Ainu of Japan, the native Americans and many other groups on the receiving end of prejudice - and they often have at least as much return prejudice as well. Running orcs this way can create a very interesting tension in a group so be careful. We have seen (sort of) one version of this with the many arrow orcs of the sword coast in FR. They raided and warned on the other groups until they had cleared a space where they could live then stopped, made peace with their neighbors and actually lived in peaceful coexistence until their genius leader died and his whole effort fell apart. But during that time folks ( to a greater or lesser extent based on their own prejudice) found they could actually live and trade with a peaceful orc kingdom.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
Orcs have always been evil. Why? Because that is what Gruumsh is and was, and he made Orcs in his image. I don't mean physically made them by hand, although I can't remember if that is true in Forgotten Realms lore; he certainly has influenced them over many, many centuries, twisting them and their society, either directly or through others whenever he has managed to work with others, to match his ideals.
That does not mean to say that there can never be an Orc of any other alignment. Half-orcs have an easier time if it and are more likely to be alignments other than evil.
An Orc being evil, however, is about as common as the day the following night.
Orcs of other alignments are few and far between.
So, an Orc or even a Half-orc walks into a Tavern, and people are on edge, and you'd likely be able to cut the tension with a knife - though you probably don't want to draw one in front of that Orc or they might take it as a challenge and go on a killing spree. It best to give them what they want and hope they'll soon be on their way - unless you happen to have a party of adventurers handy to do what you can not - kill th... Eh, Orc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
Except that is objectively not the case. Humanoids in 5e have always been free-willed, and therefore have no absolute intrinsic alignment the way beings like Fiends or Gnolls do. Now, the orc culture, based on FR lore, played heavily into some rather unfortunate "evil barbarian horde" stereotypes, but culture is not the same thing as inherent nature. And, regardless, there's nothing to say that lore is the only possible representation you can use for orcs, particularly outside the Forgotten Realms setting.
just wow. Does every single thread have someone do this? FFS, can folks just let that go, or are they somehow personally threatened by actual progress?
gah.
So, Lemuria, the place where the inevitable Dark Tower sits, occupied by the Ikon Bane, who rules over the citizens in the name of the Powe Belial, has more than just Goblins. It is multicultural, with Grendel’s and Imps (think of Stitch if he was six feet tall and would have eaten Lilo for a snack, and then the 3 foot tall stumpy winged guys, but just not devils, who carved the Underdark and make dungeons and all that). Imps are vegetarians, who prefer mushrooms and raise all manner of underground things. Grendel’s are somewhat to,Ernst, but think themselves better than the Goblins. They like to break into the hatcheries and crack the eggs of the goblins.
the resistance in Lemuria is very busy trying to find folks to help them make a more secure connection to the free city.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Now, someone suggested that to make orcs, for instance, evil because of their actions, not just because "they're orcs so it's okay to kill them." My question is, what are some reasons why someone could be seen as objectively Evil? And how would I ensure that these traits are 100% reprehensible, so my players and I don't feel guilty for killing them?
In my homebrew, the Florensa (goddess of life) who placed human mortals in the world; Grumthak, who is the orc god, drenched his blood across the land, tainting millions of people with his evil and corruption; and these people mutated into a visualization of that foul, evil, pounding through their veins.
This is why Half-Orcs don't have to be evil. The human blood element in them dilutes the "evil" curse that reigns supreme in orcs.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are terrible news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are bad news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
It presents a bit of a logical inconsistency that a species can be free-thinking and possessed of a free will while also being largely, consistently mentally similar. I don't think "a God did it" is really a satisfying explanation to resolve that inconsistency. The closer you examine it, the more it begins to resemble bunk eugenics and phrenology and other made-up explanations for why certain people are "good" and others are "bad."
I get that that's real-world logic, but given that this thread is about the unavoidable associations that get drawn between talking about race/species in a fantasy world and talking about race in the real world, I find that your answer doesn't really meet the premise of the question.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are bad news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
It presents a bit of a logical inconsistency that a species can be free-thinking and possessed of a free will while also being largely, consistently mentally similar. I don't think "a God did it" is really a satisfying explanation to resolve that inconsistency. The closer you examine it, the more it begins to resemble bunk eugenics and phrenology and other made-up explanations for why certain people are "good" and others are "bad."
I get that that's real-world logic, but given that this thread is about the unavoidable associations that get drawn between talking about race/species in a fantasy world and talking about race in the real world, I find that your answer doesn't really meet the premise of the question.
Please let me be clear, I am talking exclusively about a meta-perspective of an in-game view of a fantasy race, which has been traditionally a race of NPC monsters until recently.
The people of the Forgotten Realms can't easily forget that history.
Over time, perhaps, it will happen slowly, as Orcs evolve culturally into more diverse people.
Of course, if such history is likely to upset or harm your players, then it can be ignored, and Orcs can be played as any other race without the baggage. However, I want to make it clear, I am in no way associating Orcs with any real-world race or culture, nor am I attempting to draw any parallels between such.
I strongly disagree with real-world racism in all its forms and have never tolerated it as a dungeon master.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
"in game view" should be corrected to "a specific setting's viewpoint", and a specific published one at that.
People have been playing orcs as player characters since the early 80's.
half orc's as well.
And have been playable in FR since before the Sundering (for in game context)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
"in game view" should be corrected to "a specific setting's viewpoint", and a specific published one at that.
People have been playing orcs as player characters since the early 80's.
half orc's as well.
And have been playable in FR since before the Sundering (for in game context)
While, yes, people have been playing a number of races/species/bloodlines/whatever, since forever...
In Forgotten Realms, Orcs (until very recently) were written as "an evil race."
In the Monster Manual back in the day, they were even labelled as "Lawful Evil" in 1st and 2nd Edition; then 3rd, 4th and 5th, as "Chaotic Evil."
Where as Elves, for example were always labelled as "good" alignments.
With everything of late, it's become "Well, OK, not every Orc is evil... just the majority..." then "Well, not the majority, just some bad apples out there."
Because any thinking humanoid race should have free will to decide whether to be evil or good.
So I think that was the OP's question - like they want orcs just to be evil - and what is a good way to make that a thing, so the players don't feel bad if they encounter a band of orcs (or goblins, or kobolds, etc)
So I think that was the OP's question - like they want orcs just to be evil - and what is a good way to make that a thing, so the players don't feel bad if they encounter a band of orcs (or goblins, or kobolds, etc)
As has been said repeatedly in this thread already, the answer to that question is to have certain specific orcs be evil, whether it's one orc or a gang of orcs or a clan of orcs or even a whole nation of orcs. Not simply "orcs are evil", but "this group of orcs here are evil"
And if you want to go hog wild, maybe even give that specific group of orcs a reason for being evil beyond "they were born that way"
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are bad news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
It presents a bit of a logical inconsistency that a species can be free-thinking and possessed of a free will while also being largely, consistently mentally similar. I don't think "a God did it" is really a satisfying explanation to resolve that inconsistency. The closer you examine it, the more it begins to resemble bunk eugenics and phrenology and other made-up explanations for why certain people are "good" and others are "bad."
I get that that's real-world logic, but given that this thread is about the unavoidable associations that get drawn between talking about race/species in a fantasy world and talking about race in the real world, I find that your answer doesn't really meet the premise of the question.
Please let me be clear, I am talking exclusively about a meta-perspective of an in-game view of a fantasy race, which has been traditionally a race of NPC monsters until recently.
The people of the Forgotten Realms can't easily forget that history.
Over time, perhaps, it will happen slowly, as Orcs evolve culturally into more diverse people.
Of course, if such history is likely to upset or harm your players, then it can be ignored, and Orcs can be played as any other race without the baggage. However, I want to make it clear, I am in no way associating Orcs with any real-world race or culture, nor am I attempting to draw any parallels between such.
I strongly disagree with real-world racism in all its forms and have never tolerated it as a dungeon master.
I believe you when you say you disagree with real world racism in all forms, I do-- if I didn't think you were dealing in this discussion in good faith then I wouldn't be taking part in it. Nobody is "bad" here, we're just discussing finer points.
For example, say you are a player from a marginalized group who is in a game where the dm/setting do nothing to interrogate the "orcs=evil brutes" thing. You see how in that setting orcs are mentally subnormal, lacking basic empathy, wicked and cruel, physically imposing, endowed with less of a soul by their creator-- you realize how when this hypothetical player comes from a culture or ethnicity that all those things have been said about and acted on in real life to justify discrimination, colonization, and worse, you see how that might get too real for them and no longer be fun. This is one of those forms of racism that is not so overt, not always so noticeable, and not even everyone has a problem with (as we've established groups aren't monoliths). But for some people it makes them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.
So "it's the setting's lore" isn't a satisfying justification for me, as it's not a blanket thing that everyone can enjoy equally. It inherently shuts some people out, and that's what needs to be addressed. We should put real people's feelings before made up lore.
As has been said repeatedly in this thread already, the answer to that question is to have certain specific orcs be evil, whether it's one orc or a gang of orcs or a clan of orcs or even a whole nation of orcs. Not simply "orcs are evil", but "this group of orcs here are evil" And if you want to go hog wild, maybe even give that specific group of orcs a reason for being evil beyond "they were born that way"
Ah, in that case - religious fanatics are an easy way. Orcs who follow their orc god (Gruumsh) are fanatical, and believe the world should be purged of anyone who isn't born an orcs - and as a practice, they commit horrible atrocities as "exorcisms" (such as the Blood Eagle) whether male, female, young, old, adult or child.
That should make it clear the party has no problem taking down blood thirsty zealots. And this could be wide spread among several bands of orcs who follow this religion to this degree. So it could be a reoccurring issue whenever you need to kill these orcs. Even give the "tribe" a name "The Spine Breakers" who have the symbol of a broken spine beneath the symbol of Gruumsh (which is already described as: A triangular eye with bony protrusions / An unblinking eye)
As has been said repeatedly in this thread already, the answer to that question is to have certain specific orcs be evil, whether it's one orc or a gang of orcs or a clan of orcs or even a whole nation of orcs. Not simply "orcs are evil", but "this group of orcs here are evil" And if you want to go hog wild, maybe even give that specific group of orcs a reason for being evil beyond "they were born that way"
Ah, in that case - religious fanatics are an easy way. Orcs who follow their orc god (Gruumsh) are fanatical, and believe the world should be purged of anyone who isn't born an orcs - and as a practice, they commit horrible atrocities as "exorcisms" (such as the Blood Eagle) whether male, female, young, old, adult or child.
That should make it clear the party has no problem taking down blood thirsty zealots. And this could be wide spread among several bands of orcs who follow this religion to this degree. So it could be a reoccurring issue whenever you need to kill these orcs. Even give the "tribe" a name "The Spine Breakers" who have the symbol of a broken spine beneath the symbol of Gruumsh (which is already described as: A triangular eye with bony protrusions / An unblinking eye)
Sure, you could have worshippers of Gruumsh behave that way
You could also have orc worshippers of Gruumsh who don't behave that way, because religious scripture is always open to interpretation, and some who worship other gods (or even no gods) instead. You could even have non-orc worshippers of Gruumsh who ignore the "orc purity" thing to focus on the "might makes right" part of his worship
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are bad news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
It presents a bit of a logical inconsistency that a species can be free-thinking and possessed of a free will while also being largely, consistently mentally similar. I don't think "a God did it" is really a satisfying explanation to resolve that inconsistency. The closer you examine it, the more it begins to resemble bunk eugenics and phrenology and other made-up explanations for why certain people are "good" and others are "bad."
I get that that's real-world logic, but given that this thread is about the unavoidable associations that get drawn between talking about race/species in a fantasy world and talking about race in the real world, I find that your answer doesn't really meet the premise of the question.
Please let me be clear, I am talking exclusively about a meta-perspective of an in-game view of a fantasy race, which has been traditionally a race of NPC monsters until recently.
The people of the Forgotten Realms can't easily forget that history.
Over time, perhaps, it will happen slowly, as Orcs evolve culturally into more diverse people.
Of course, if such history is likely to upset or harm your players, then it can be ignored, and Orcs can be played as any other race without the baggage. However, I want to make it clear, I am in no way associating Orcs with any real-world race or culture, nor am I attempting to draw any parallels between such.
I strongly disagree with real-world racism in all its forms and have never tolerated it as a dungeon master.
I believe you when you say you disagree with real world racism in all forms, I do-- if I didn't think you were dealing in this discussion in good faith then I wouldn't be taking part in it. Nobody is "bad" here, we're just discussing finer points.
For example, say you are a player from a marginalized group who is in a game where the dm/setting do nothing to interrogate the "orcs=evil brutes" thing. You see how in that setting orcs are mentally subnormal, lacking basic empathy, wicked and cruel, physically imposing, endowed with less of a soul by their creator-- you realize how when this hypothetical player comes from a culture or ethnicity that all those things have been said about and acted on in real life to justify discrimination, colonization, and worse, you see how that might get too real for them and no longer be fun. This is one of those forms of racism that is not so overt, not always so noticeable, and not even everyone has a problem with (as we've established groups aren't monoliths). But for some people it makes them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.
So "it's the setting's lore" isn't a satisfying justification for me, as it's not a blanket thing that everyone can enjoy equally. It inherently shuts some people out, and that's what needs to be addressed. We should put real people's feelings before made up lore.
You make some interesting points that I had not considered. Because the game world and the real world are different and separate, I have always felt that the game world has always been a place where we can explore the human condition, warts and all - as Oliver Cromwell once said.
As a player, I tend to have a hard line against "seeing" children die or coming across dead kids on my travels. So I completely understand that we all have lines we can't or won't cross and things that we cannot deal with, even in the context of a game.
When I have been a DM, I have asked my players at the start what they want to see and don't want to see in the game. When people have said things like no racism, no sexualisation, no violence towards children, no killing Worg puppies, or whatever their hardlines might be, I have been careful not to include those elements in my stories or to select modules that don't include them.
I have always considered that enough - ask your players what their boundaries are, and then don't cross them, but perhaps it is not.
I have never considered before that such things could be harmful by their mere presence in a setting or the setting lore because I have always taken the view that if something is representative of a boundary that you as an individual hold, then you should be communicating those boundaries to your DM ahead of time. Likewise, DMs should be upfront about what their campaigns and stories contain so that players can do so.
In short, the onus has always been on the individual player/DM/table rather than the setting creators or loremasters.
Maybe I have been wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Now, someone suggested that to make orcs, for instance, evil because of their actions, not just because "they're orcs so it's okay to kill them." My question is, what are some reasons why someone could be seen as objectively Evil? And how would I ensure that these traits are 100% reprehensible, so my players and I don't feel guilty for killing them?
In my homebrew, the Florensa (goddess of life) who placed human mortals in the world; Grumthak, who is the orc god, drenched his blood across the land, tainting millions of people with his evil and corruption; and these people mutated into a visualization of that foul, evil, pounding through their veins.
This is why Half-Orcs don't have to be evil. The human blood element in them dilutes the "evil" curse that reigns supreme in orcs.
But then you run into the same problem with racism. One can easily draw parallels between these orcs and the abhorrent historical treatment of ethnical minorities ("these people are savages and must be cleansed and diluted")
ah. Yeah, I get that. For all my highfalutin stuff, in practical terms my games are currently just crawls and towns. And the big world has a lot of foundational background, but the closest they will get to most of it is saving the princess and then Seeing her crowned and solving the old emperor’s death.
thank you.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
A ravenous creature birthed by exploding out of a hyena that was cursed to feed until it died from engorging itself...
That simplifies things quite a bit if that's your lore. It's difficult to justify any G or even L in that alignment. It is not the product of the creature's nurturing but of designed purpose.
Can a Gnoll reject its nature? Would it? Hunger is a basic part of life that is difficult to deny, and the very core of their being is hunger. That doesn't completely preclude the possibility, but then, you now have an extremely rare exception to a rule. People are going to fear Gnolls just because they're Gnolls. That's just how it works.
The problem is when a creature's nature comes from nurturing and not design, and people make assumptions based on what people claim are common encounters. The exceptions are not from a rule but from a prejudice. Supposed statistics of encounters is not a valid excuse. That's when you need to be careful.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Reading through this made me think of a discussion I had with a different group about evil and sin. We finally decided that all sin comes down to is selfishness. When that selfishness reaches the point of “because I want “it” ( whatever “it” is) I am justified in taking it from you the sin becomes evil. When groups do this it becomes a cultural thing. If we think about orc for a bit (other groups would be fairly similar) they are humanoids living in and under the mountains fairly traditionally. If you have elves, dwarves and humans that develop ways to live off the land superior to that of the orcs ( farming etc) and start pushing into the territory of the orcs the orcs are going to fight back and both sides are going to start building a prejudice for the other that is capable of turning into a prejudice and racism. If the orcs are being pushed from below by the Drow and duregar and from above by the humans, elves and dwarves they just might turn to raiding to get some of that “good stuff” and to try to thin out the populations squeezing them so they can have a place to raise their kids. So now, yes the orcs are regularly out raiding, stealing, killing (even women and children) but are they actually the evil ones ? This is basically the scenario for the Ainu of Japan, the native Americans and many other groups on the receiving end of prejudice - and they often have at least as much return prejudice as well. Running orcs this way can create a very interesting tension in a group so be careful. We have seen (sort of) one version of this with the many arrow orcs of the sword coast in FR. They raided and warned on the other groups until they had cleared a space where they could live then stopped, made peace with their neighbors and actually lived in peaceful coexistence until their genius leader died and his whole effort fell apart. But during that time folks ( to a greater or lesser extent based on their own prejudice) found they could actually live and trade with a peaceful orc kingdom.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'd like to point out that Orcs (even in 5e) are evil.
5e, 4e, 3e, Orcs are chaotic evil.
2e. 1e, Orcs are lawful evil.
Orcs have always been evil. Why? Because that is what Gruumsh is and was, and he made Orcs in his image. I don't mean physically made them by hand, although I can't remember if that is true in Forgotten Realms lore; he certainly has influenced them over many, many centuries, twisting them and their society, either directly or through others whenever he has managed to work with others, to match his ideals.
That does not mean to say that there can never be an Orc of any other alignment. Half-orcs have an easier time if it and are more likely to be alignments other than evil.
An Orc being evil, however, is about as common as the day the following night.
Orcs of other alignments are few and far between.
So, an Orc or even a Half-orc walks into a Tavern, and people are on edge, and you'd likely be able to cut the tension with a knife - though you probably don't want to draw one in front of that Orc or they might take it as a challenge and go on a killing spree. It best to give them what they want and hope they'll soon be on their way - unless you happen to have a party of adventurers handy to do what you can not - kill th... Eh, Orc.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Except that is objectively not the case. Humanoids in 5e have always been free-willed, and therefore have no absolute intrinsic alignment the way beings like Fiends or Gnolls do. Now, the orc culture, based on FR lore, played heavily into some rather unfortunate "evil barbarian horde" stereotypes, but culture is not the same thing as inherent nature. And, regardless, there's nothing to say that lore is the only possible representation you can use for orcs, particularly outside the Forgotten Realms setting.
Wow.
just wow. Does every single thread have someone do this? FFS, can folks just let that go, or are they somehow personally threatened by actual progress?
gah.
So, Lemuria, the place where the inevitable Dark Tower sits, occupied by the Ikon Bane, who rules over the citizens in the name of the Powe Belial, has more than just Goblins. It is multicultural, with Grendel’s and Imps (think of Stitch if he was six feet tall and would have eaten Lilo for a snack, and then the 3 foot tall stumpy winged guys, but just not devils, who carved the Underdark and make dungeons and all that). Imps are vegetarians, who prefer mushrooms and raise all manner of underground things. Grendel’s are somewhat to,Ernst, but think themselves better than the Goblins. They like to break into the hatcheries and crack the eggs of the goblins.
the resistance in Lemuria is very busy trying to find folks to help them make a more secure connection to the free city.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
In my homebrew, the Florensa (goddess of life) who placed human mortals in the world; Grumthak, who is the orc god, drenched his blood across the land, tainting millions of people with his evil and corruption; and these people mutated into a visualization of that foul, evil, pounding through their veins.
This is why Half-Orcs don't have to be evil. The human blood element in them dilutes the "evil" curse that reigns supreme in orcs.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
The "Orc" monster stat block might say evil in older 5e books, but a monster stat block is not representative of an entire species, just like how all commoners aren't canonically neutral and you're not violating the rules if a human commoner is good or evil.
Nowadays, as you'd probably see in the multiverse of monsters book, any playable race the alignment is listed "any" just to clarify that point.
Yep.
Sigh.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I am open to Orcs with different alignments - hell, an Orc can be Lawful Good, but such cases are sporadic.
I also think that the people of that village a Lawful Good Orc stops in for provisions will not make the distinction. All they will see is an Orc, and Orcs are terrible news because where there is one, there is usually a horde close behind. The mother of the child, saved from slavers by the Lawful Good Orc, might feel thankful that her child is safe. Still, neither is she going to accept that this Orc has done this good deed out of the kindness of their heart and will most likely be on high alert, looking for the fastest way to get herself and her child far away from this monster.
The life of an Orc is never easy - and that goes double for those few who are different from the rest in that they are not just pure evil, chaotic murder machines.
They are not welcome amongst other Orcs when they do not conform to the will of Gruumsh (or at least one of the other members of the pantheon) and are tolerated only out of fear by the other races.
An Orc's life is marred by hatred, violence and bloodshed, whether it be their own or that of others.
What is more - by the command of their God, no Orc will ever live peacefully with the other races. Gruumsh commands them to fight, kill, and drive all the other races out of their homes, cities, and lands. There is extensive lore as to why this is so.
I feel like if we start saying that the Orcs, who are not pure chaotic evil murder machines, are not just strange outliers trying to make a living as best they can, but typical of the race and that Orcs can be as widely varied as the population of any human city when it comes to their alignment, we will lose a large part of what makes an Orc and Orc especially if the other races don't bat an eye at the fact that there can even be an Orc that is not a chaotic evil murder machine.
With all of the above said, Half-Orcs occupy a unique space. Humans often raise them, and thanks to the human blood they carry, Gruumsh has far less control over them than he does over full Orcs. Thus, Half-Orcs have more chance to have alignments other than evil. They are also usually free of the immense conditioning that Orcish society would otherwise have had upon their minds. When you combine that with their higher intelligence score, Half-Orcs raised by humans can often become functioning members of human society.
Although even a Half-Orc might find it challenging to fit in, thanks to their ancestral heritage.
This is why, I believe, many of them become adventurers as player characters.
It is also why I disagree with making full Orcs a playable race rather than keeping them strictly as a race of NPC monsters, with Half-Orc being the playable version. However, since they are now playable, I am willing to accept that there can be Orcs that are not evil, but I think those Orcs are strange outliers who are few and far between, and it is not likely that they will be readily accepted by the other races, as being anything other than a monster.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
It presents a bit of a logical inconsistency that a species can be free-thinking and possessed of a free will while also being largely, consistently mentally similar. I don't think "a God did it" is really a satisfying explanation to resolve that inconsistency. The closer you examine it, the more it begins to resemble bunk eugenics and phrenology and other made-up explanations for why certain people are "good" and others are "bad."
I get that that's real-world logic, but given that this thread is about the unavoidable associations that get drawn between talking about race/species in a fantasy world and talking about race in the real world, I find that your answer doesn't really meet the premise of the question.
Please let me be clear, I am talking exclusively about a meta-perspective of an in-game view of a fantasy race, which has been traditionally a race of NPC monsters until recently.
The people of the Forgotten Realms can't easily forget that history.
Over time, perhaps, it will happen slowly, as Orcs evolve culturally into more diverse people.
Of course, if such history is likely to upset or harm your players, then it can be ignored, and Orcs can be played as any other race without the baggage. However, I want to make it clear, I am in no way associating Orcs with any real-world race or culture, nor am I attempting to draw any parallels between such.
I strongly disagree with real-world racism in all its forms and have never tolerated it as a dungeon master.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
"in game view" should be corrected to "a specific setting's viewpoint", and a specific published one at that.
People have been playing orcs as player characters since the early 80's.
half orc's as well.
And have been playable in FR since before the Sundering (for in game context)
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
While, yes, people have been playing a number of races/species/bloodlines/whatever, since forever...
In Forgotten Realms, Orcs (until very recently) were written as "an evil race."
In the Monster Manual back in the day, they were even labelled as "Lawful Evil" in 1st and 2nd Edition; then 3rd, 4th and 5th, as "Chaotic Evil."
Where as Elves, for example were always labelled as "good" alignments.
With everything of late, it's become "Well, OK, not every Orc is evil... just the majority..." then "Well, not the majority, just some bad apples out there."
Because any thinking humanoid race should have free will to decide whether to be evil or good.
So I think that was the OP's question - like they want orcs just to be evil - and what is a good way to make that a thing, so the players don't feel bad if they encounter a band of orcs (or goblins, or kobolds, etc)
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
As has been said repeatedly in this thread already, the answer to that question is to have certain specific orcs be evil, whether it's one orc or a gang of orcs or a clan of orcs or even a whole nation of orcs. Not simply "orcs are evil", but "this group of orcs here are evil"
And if you want to go hog wild, maybe even give that specific group of orcs a reason for being evil beyond "they were born that way"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I believe you when you say you disagree with real world racism in all forms, I do-- if I didn't think you were dealing in this discussion in good faith then I wouldn't be taking part in it. Nobody is "bad" here, we're just discussing finer points.
For example, say you are a player from a marginalized group who is in a game where the dm/setting do nothing to interrogate the "orcs=evil brutes" thing. You see how in that setting orcs are mentally subnormal, lacking basic empathy, wicked and cruel, physically imposing, endowed with less of a soul by their creator-- you realize how when this hypothetical player comes from a culture or ethnicity that all those things have been said about and acted on in real life to justify discrimination, colonization, and worse, you see how that might get too real for them and no longer be fun. This is one of those forms of racism that is not so overt, not always so noticeable, and not even everyone has a problem with (as we've established groups aren't monoliths). But for some people it makes them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.
So "it's the setting's lore" isn't a satisfying justification for me, as it's not a blanket thing that everyone can enjoy equally. It inherently shuts some people out, and that's what needs to be addressed. We should put real people's feelings before made up lore.
Ah, in that case - religious fanatics are an easy way. Orcs who follow their orc god (Gruumsh) are fanatical, and believe the world should be purged of anyone who isn't born an orcs - and as a practice, they commit horrible atrocities as "exorcisms" (such as the Blood Eagle) whether male, female, young, old, adult or child.
That should make it clear the party has no problem taking down blood thirsty zealots. And this could be wide spread among several bands of orcs who follow this religion to this degree. So it could be a reoccurring issue whenever you need to kill these orcs. Even give the "tribe" a name "The Spine Breakers" who have the symbol of a broken spine beneath the symbol of Gruumsh (which is already described as: A triangular eye with bony protrusions / An unblinking eye)
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Sure, you could have worshippers of Gruumsh behave that way
You could also have orc worshippers of Gruumsh who don't behave that way, because religious scripture is always open to interpretation, and some who worship other gods (or even no gods) instead. You could even have non-orc worshippers of Gruumsh who ignore the "orc purity" thing to focus on the "might makes right" part of his worship
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You make some interesting points that I had not considered. Because the game world and the real world are different and separate, I have always felt that the game world has always been a place where we can explore the human condition, warts and all - as Oliver Cromwell once said.
As a player, I tend to have a hard line against "seeing" children die or coming across dead kids on my travels. So I completely understand that we all have lines we can't or won't cross and things that we cannot deal with, even in the context of a game.
When I have been a DM, I have asked my players at the start what they want to see and don't want to see in the game. When people have said things like no racism, no sexualisation, no violence towards children, no killing Worg puppies, or whatever their hardlines might be, I have been careful not to include those elements in my stories or to select modules that don't include them.
I have always considered that enough - ask your players what their boundaries are, and then don't cross them, but perhaps it is not.
I have never considered before that such things could be harmful by their mere presence in a setting or the setting lore because I have always taken the view that if something is representative of a boundary that you as an individual hold, then you should be communicating those boundaries to your DM ahead of time. Likewise, DMs should be upfront about what their campaigns and stories contain so that players can do so.
In short, the onus has always been on the individual player/DM/table rather than the setting creators or loremasters.
Maybe I have been wrong.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
But then you run into the same problem with racism. One can easily draw parallels between these orcs and the abhorrent historical treatment of ethnical minorities ("these people are savages and must be cleansed and diluted")
[REDACTED]