My party and I had just finished a scripted fight where we were demolished and sent flying. The Paladin of Helm was having a bit of a crisis but held their faith in Helm. Then the devil Maulus shows up with a contract having made a deal with helm to assist then paladin in getting them and us to safety. In return Helm agreed to give the entire party to Maulus for 1 job / favor. This is despite the fact that none of us were conscious, aware, or willing to take the deal. Especially my character who does not worship Helm and absolutely despise Maulus, who I forgot to mention is a Cambian. My question is that lore wise that is not possible right, a god cannot give anyone to a devil in anyway shape or form when the person in question is unaware, unwilling, and not conscious especially if they have no connections to the deity in question, right? Seriously asking for lore reasons only my DM and I are good.
This isn't really a question about lore, since the DM controls what is true about the nature of the world in their game.
We could tell you that it's not possible, and that does nothing to solve your problem, which is that your DM is taking unilateral actions that prevent the players from actually making decisions about what they do.
It's an easy trap for DMs to fall into, where they get too in love with their ideas for how "the story" will go, and you end up with "scripted fights" and things like this.
And the only way to solve it is not by coming back to the DM with "the D&D forums say you can't do this", but having a conversation with the DM about your problems with the way the game is run. Maybe a private one, maybe a whole-group conversation.
There's no guarantee it'll go well, but it's unlikely to change if the DM thinks everyone is cool with the way they run.
Not trying to circumvent my DM, that would just be in poor sport. No what I am after is the lore for that kind of situation while using it as an example. I know we don't have to use everything as written verbatim, I certainly don't. However I still like to learn lore when and where I can, I find it fascinating, exciting, and it sometimes inspires new ideas for me to use.
P.s. my DM knows both me and my character loathe Maulus with every fiber of our being. So this is definitely to get my character to try and one up that punk devil lol.
Not trying to circumvent my DM, that would just be in poor sport. No what I am after is the lore for that kind of situation while using it as an example. I know we don't have to use everything as written verbatim, I certainly don't. However I still like to learn lore when and where I can, I find it fascinating, exciting, and it sometimes inspires new ideas for me to use.
P.s. my DM knows both me and my character loathe Maulus with every fiber of our being. So this is definitely to get my character to try and one up that punk devil lol.
There is no lore for this in the game proper, and no rules for it, either.
Note that Lore is always going to be entirely in the hand of the DM. Flat out. Even if they are running a game in the world of Faerun and are dead set on being as strict to the existing lore as possible, *all of it* is wholly up to the DM.
And if it is a custom designed world, then no one gets to even offer lore from their own worlds to be a counter, because it isn't their world. Lore is wholly and entirely a DM's province.
Rules wise, D&D doesn't do contract rules, lol. Hell, technically speaking, D&D doesn't do consent (I mean, can you imagine trying to get consent from a Gelatinous Cube to chop it up and serve at a dinner party of your 50 bestest frenemies?).
Lots of reasons behind that, but the real basis is that for the most part, D&D avoids trying to make anything seem too much like the stuff that the haters used to accuse it of doing. So there's no rules for "making an agreement with a powerful individual" that are spelled out -- it is wholly the lore of the DM's version of the world.
If they did have something like that, however, it would be in the section around Warlocks, who make those kinds of deals. IF your DM has written anything about those kinds of pacts, then that's probably where something around them would be (I mean, if I were to do something like that, I would model it on Paladin Oaths, with explicit requirements).
So, that said, let me drop into a different space: this is called railroading. There are not written rules for railroading, but there are a lot of unwritten ones, and by and large railroading is considered a breach of the social contract between Players and DM and intensely frowned upon (though, as also mentioned above, this is pretty common among less experienced DMs).
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
To play Asmodeus' advocate....it is possible for Warlocks to have a patron who is not aware of them (all because of one line in the warlock entry), so you could infer the reverse is also true, that a mortal can suddenly find themselves with a patron and not be aware of it. The key may well be to find out the exact terms of your new found employment.
Edit: that said, it might also be worth asking the DM what the plan is as it goes against your characters motivations.
My question is that lore wise that is not possible right, a god cannot give anyone to a devil in anyway shape or form when the person in question is unaware, unwilling, and not conscious especially if they have no connections to the deity in question, right? Seriously asking for lore reasons only my DM and I are good.
As some of the others already stated, the lore about gods giving fiends (i.e., demons, devils, or otherwise) souls is both rather limited and mostly under the DM's control. I vaguely remember some D&D novels mentioning how some [evil] deities would occasionally trade the souls of their dead petitioners to fiends for benefits outside their godly domain/purview. So, it certainly would be possible that a god would make a trade with a fiend…
However, offering the services of living beings, who might not necessarily be devote followers of the deity, seems a bit much. Characters shouldn’t necessarily be beholden to the deal between Helm and Maulus, but a canny fiend might have worked additional clauses into the contract. Maybe the characters actually have the right to refuse the service, but the debt then falls onto someone else (which potentially creates an even greater evil).
Rules wise, D&D doesn't do contract rules, lol. Hell, technically speaking, D&D doesn't do consent (I mean, can you imagine trying to get consent from a Gelatinous Cube to chop it up and serve at a dinner party of your 50 bestest frenemies?).
Lots of reasons behind that, but the real basis is that for the most part, D&D avoids trying to make anything seem too much like the stuff that the haters used to accuse it of doing. So there's no rules for "making an agreement with a powerful individual" that are spelled out -- it is wholly the lore of the DM's version of the world.
Well, there are some rules available in 5e products... In particular, within the Decent into Avernus adventure book, Appendix A outlines how to create diabolic deals. It provides details of how to make a deal with a fiend as well as which fiends can offer what types of benefits. It's not overly complete or complex, but the information is useful when dealing with fiendish bargains.
I mean, the rules/code of behavior deities follow in FR have never exactly been codified, and some deities do basically have fiat to interfere in entire races/subraces. Granted, these are typically Evil deities like Lolth and Gruumsh. It's not exactly fitting for a LN deity like Helm to arbitrarily rope a bunch of mortals into a deal.
I mean, the rules/code of behavior deities follow in FR have never exactly been codified, and some deities do basically have fiat to interfere in entire races/subraces. Granted, these are typically Evil deities like Lolth and Gruumsh. It's not exactly fitting for a LN deity like Helm to arbitrarily rope a bunch of mortals into a deal.
Especially one with an evil being like a devil.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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First some context
My party and I had just finished a scripted fight where we were demolished and sent flying. The Paladin of Helm was having a bit of a crisis but held their faith in Helm. Then the devil Maulus shows up with a contract having made a deal with helm to assist then paladin in getting them and us to safety. In return Helm agreed to give the entire party to Maulus for 1 job / favor. This is despite the fact that none of us were conscious, aware, or willing to take the deal. Especially my character who does not worship Helm and absolutely despise Maulus, who I forgot to mention is a Cambian. My question is that lore wise that is not possible right, a god cannot give anyone to a devil in anyway shape or form when the person in question is unaware, unwilling, and not conscious especially if they have no connections to the deity in question, right? Seriously asking for lore reasons only my DM and I are good.
This isn't really a question about lore, since the DM controls what is true about the nature of the world in their game.
We could tell you that it's not possible, and that does nothing to solve your problem, which is that your DM is taking unilateral actions that prevent the players from actually making decisions about what they do.
It's an easy trap for DMs to fall into, where they get too in love with their ideas for how "the story" will go, and you end up with "scripted fights" and things like this.
And the only way to solve it is not by coming back to the DM with "the D&D forums say you can't do this", but having a conversation with the DM about your problems with the way the game is run. Maybe a private one, maybe a whole-group conversation.
There's no guarantee it'll go well, but it's unlikely to change if the DM thinks everyone is cool with the way they run.
Not trying to circumvent my DM, that would just be in poor sport. No what I am after is the lore for that kind of situation while using it as an example. I know we don't have to use everything as written verbatim, I certainly don't. However I still like to learn lore when and where I can, I find it fascinating, exciting, and it sometimes inspires new ideas for me to use.
P.s. my DM knows both me and my character loathe Maulus with every fiber of our being. So this is definitely to get my character to try and one up that punk devil lol.
There is no lore for this in the game proper, and no rules for it, either.
Note that Lore is always going to be entirely in the hand of the DM. Flat out. Even if they are running a game in the world of Faerun and are dead set on being as strict to the existing lore as possible, *all of it* is wholly up to the DM.
And if it is a custom designed world, then no one gets to even offer lore from their own worlds to be a counter, because it isn't their world. Lore is wholly and entirely a DM's province.
Rules wise, D&D doesn't do contract rules, lol. Hell, technically speaking, D&D doesn't do consent (I mean, can you imagine trying to get consent from a Gelatinous Cube to chop it up and serve at a dinner party of your 50 bestest frenemies?).
Lots of reasons behind that, but the real basis is that for the most part, D&D avoids trying to make anything seem too much like the stuff that the haters used to accuse it of doing. So there's no rules for "making an agreement with a powerful individual" that are spelled out -- it is wholly the lore of the DM's version of the world.
If they did have something like that, however, it would be in the section around Warlocks, who make those kinds of deals. IF your DM has written anything about those kinds of pacts, then that's probably where something around them would be (I mean, if I were to do something like that, I would model it on Paladin Oaths, with explicit requirements).
So, that said, let me drop into a different space: this is called railroading. There are not written rules for railroading, but there are a lot of unwritten ones, and by and large railroading is considered a breach of the social contract between Players and DM and intensely frowned upon (though, as also mentioned above, this is pretty common among less experienced DMs).
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
To play Asmodeus' advocate....it is possible for Warlocks to have a patron who is not aware of them (all because of one line in the warlock entry), so you could infer the reverse is also true, that a mortal can suddenly find themselves with a patron and not be aware of it. The key may well be to find out the exact terms of your new found employment.
Edit: that said, it might also be worth asking the DM what the plan is as it goes against your characters motivations.
As some of the others already stated, the lore about gods giving fiends (i.e., demons, devils, or otherwise) souls is both rather limited and mostly under the DM's control. I vaguely remember some D&D novels mentioning how some [evil] deities would occasionally trade the souls of their dead petitioners to fiends for benefits outside their godly domain/purview. So, it certainly would be possible that a god would make a trade with a fiend…
However, offering the services of living beings, who might not necessarily be devote followers of the deity, seems a bit much. Characters shouldn’t necessarily be beholden to the deal between Helm and Maulus, but a canny fiend might have worked additional clauses into the contract. Maybe the characters actually have the right to refuse the service, but the debt then falls onto someone else (which potentially creates an even greater evil).
Well, there are some rules available in 5e products... In particular, within the Decent into Avernus adventure book, Appendix A outlines how to create diabolic deals. It provides details of how to make a deal with a fiend as well as which fiends can offer what types of benefits. It's not overly complete or complex, but the information is useful when dealing with fiendish bargains.
I mean, the rules/code of behavior deities follow in FR have never exactly been codified, and some deities do basically have fiat to interfere in entire races/subraces. Granted, these are typically Evil deities like Lolth and Gruumsh. It's not exactly fitting for a LN deity like Helm to arbitrarily rope a bunch of mortals into a deal.
Especially one with an evil being like a devil.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.